scrambled2012

"You never know where somebody is mentally... "

I think this quote really nails it; to the degree limited information (posts) have been made by another, to that degree the above is simply true. It remains true even with many posts, although less so.

It is important that we don't take our own experiences and beliefs and overly project them on to others--espec on folks who are new, be it to the process of recovery or to the boards. It is equally important that we remain humble in the recognition of our limited information about where others may be in thier lives. Speciality threads may come to have a more militant charicter; so be it, but a general forum, aimed at welcoming folks,getting them used to the interface, giving them information about treatment options, etc., ought not. If we find ourselves having an emotional reaction in terms of frustration or a need to give folks a master-drill sargent orientation, its saying more about whats in our heads then the other person...

A truth that must be remembered is that there are many different root causes of addictive behavior. Some are biological, some are psychological, some are social. Our drivers are not necessarly the drivers of others. As a person seeks out more specific clusters of treatment and feedback (particular threads and groups), the drivers might become clearer, but amongst newcomers, this is not the case.

my two cents.

Rusty Zipper

"if people would just do, act or say what i like, there would be no problem"

that was my old thinking, and thats just one reason why i'm here.

if everyone treated me the same way, it would wind up being boring, and surely no growth would be had.

life is full of different thoughts, ideas, and approaches.

and thats what helps makes SR SR

soberlicious

Don't know the source, but interesting quote.

freshstart57

I am most impressed with the tenor of the discussion here, led most ably by the Addict Whisperer / Moderator Par Excellence, not mentioning any names. Dee. I can see myself in many of these observations, on both sides of the effectiveness fence. This conversation is a mindfulness opportunity for self examination if there ever were one. And you can have a subjunctive clause while yer at it.

Everyone is invited to dinner at my place on Saturday, arrive 6 pm for 7. I'll let The Resident Love Goddess Know. Any special dietary restrictions, send me a pm.

michelle01

I'll just say that when I went in for therapy, with my CBT counsellors, they were willing to listen to me patiently, as I went through all I was thinking/feeling, even when what I was saying sounded irrational or ludicrous to myself. Then they would calmly and objectively tell me a more sane perspective. They never cosigned my BS. After each session, I felt as if a huge load had lifted off my shoulders. Sometimes people just need to 'vent' about something, then they can get on with it.

It worked because I was willing to listen and make it work. My first time with a counsellor didn't work too well and I think even he could tell that I wasn't very engaged, I'd gone there to please others in my life.

Maybe some people do need a more 'hardcore' approach. My ego was already broken though when I went into therapy. I didn't need super confrontation, it probably would've driven me off. Neither however did I need nice hippie sentiment and platitudes (I've had both extremes of therapists over the years, I'm blessed with the ones I now work with).

That was my recovery, supplemented with my personal faith. I think I'm a bona fide alcoholic, now in recovery for two years. I'm still learning... each day I learn, I expect it'll continue for the rest of my life, and maybe one day my needs will change, I'm prepared for that as well. But for now am happy with the current arrangement I have in place.

katrinka

Thanks, Freshstart, I'll be there. I knew getting a passport was a good idea! Seriously I have read this thread and find everyone's opinions to be so thoughtful. I know I get a little crazy by the members who are unhappy with their DUI punishments so I need to not comment on their those threads.

LosingmyMisery

I wasn't successful in my first attempt at sobriety, nor my second. I white knuckled it and struggled managing to get a few days, relapsed and then relapsed again. The humiliation and disappointment of relapse was horrible leading me into deeper despair. What does an alcoholic do when they are in distress? You know the drill. I know the struggles and I know what it takes to get sober. I'm grateful to say that my relapses took place in my first 90 days of attempting sobriety. After that I kicked it into full gear and have been sober ever since. I am exuberantly grateful for my sobriety. Without it, I know I am a sad drunk wasting my life away in nothing but misery and a mountain of empty bottles. People were very supportive of me during my relapse period. I can attest to that. I also know that it takes a lot of work to make major changes in life. Getting sober was one of the biggest challenges I've taken on to date. It also was well worth it.

Some of us have been here for many years. We have seen certain members drunk post in a panic and ask for help in desperation. We feel their pain and struggles offering advice and sharing what worked for us. Time passes, same member, same frantic post...again and again. I know that everyone gets sober in their own time. Some never get it. After awhile frustration sets in when advice is ignored, but the same frantic cries for help keep appearing.

Should we be able to shrug it off? I know I can't do it easily. You start to care about certain people. Knowing what I know then and what I know today, I want everyone to experience the joys of sobriety and to become successful.

I'm not saying that the less than tactful comments are justified, but the comments are often posted out of frustration. It happens. We want others to succeed, but nothing changes if nothing changes. What many may not understand, as a new member fresh on board, what is read for the first time is historical behavior of an alcoholic asking for help, but doing nothing to help themselves. Sobriety doesn't happen over night. You don't wake up stopped and life is good. Honestly, that is what I wanted. I wanted sobriety, but didn't want to do the work to achieve it. If I could have willed myself into sobriety, I would have been successful. Sadly, I failed and failed often. The concept of changing and working came after my last drink. That experience scared the holy h*ll out of me and hope to never get near anything like it again.

Some of us do have a history with other members which may not be apparent upon first reading a thread. What may come off as harsh, is well...possibly...wasted breath at a certain point. Sigh...I know that sounds horrid, but I'm being honest.

Not saying it is okay, but just want to let it be known that sometimes the hardliner kicks in after exhausted attempts. I have been on recovery boards for eight years and I'm finally learning to care without becoming overly invested. Its not that I don't care or I'm cold, it is that I know I can't save anyone, or everyone. I use to become so hurt or upset when relapse happened. I now know I have to back off and allow others to make their own choices.

We all make mistakes. These days I'm okay with making mistakes. If I take something away from it and learn...that is a good thing. If history keeps repeating itself, time to reevaluate and switch things up. I get that now. Many years ago...stuck in the sick cycle of addiction, I couldn't stop myself. Thank goodness for hope and a solution of choices and options.

Threshold

The general consensus of this thread seems to be leaning toward "sometimes the hard truth hurts, but it must be said" so, I decided to speak up.

A few things to consider.

Recently a number of people took the time to contact Dee (if I got my facts right) to tell him that they were going to leave and why.

This might be a coincidence, or it might be that there has actually been some activity in the forum lately that bears looking at, beyond the normal "truth can hurt" posts that have always been a part of this forum.

I don't think that all of a sudden a group of people individually reacted to business as usual.

I myself have noticed a rise in certain activity lately that has altered the tone of this forum. I've been here awhile and I am pretty sure it is not just my imagination.

There has been a rise in chest pounding about which program is better, who works their program the best, and who can get the most people to agree that a certain program is best and how to work it.

I have seen it happen with increasing frequency that newcomer's threads are subtly or not so subtly been hijacked to play out this activity.

People who have been here awhile and have some experience with other folks approaches etc, can choose to ignore, or shrug off a lot of stuff. Newcomers have no clue about the various personalities here or when to drop a thread (especially hard if they started the thread themselves) when it starts going to the bad place. And on a practical note, it can take a little while to figure out how the forum works, ie, how to "friend" someone, ignore a poster, and all that good stuff.

There are some sorts of activity that truly aren't best played out on the newcomers forum.

I feel that this thread has drifted from addressing what has been going on to people defending activity under the name of "saving lives". I think that most of us here know the difference between a post that lays it all out and tells it like it is to a newcomer, and a post that is one person pitting their mode of recovery against another person or parading around how perfectly they work their own program.

Even if a person does choose to leave because the truth was hard to swallow, they now have the truth lurking in their minds. And they may chew on it awhile, a seed has been planted. Someone has been done a service, both the person who slunk off and those who read the thread and stayed.

Not so much when someone leaves with the idea that people here are competitive a-holes. That makes it harder to take seriously anything they say, even when it IS useful.

This is the trend I've noticed, and I suspect that some of the newcomers have noticed. It's been growing and more and more people have been buying into it.

It's fun to debate, discuss, etc this sort of thing. Confrontation and conflict can get the adrenalin going. There's a time and a place for it, and I've think that the place for it has been misjudged as of late.

Terminally Unique

Michelle,

Consider that people here are not trained REBT/CBT therapists, who usually become certified in that style of therapy after obtaining traditional psychology or counseling degrees. There's a reason you are paying them for their services, and I don't believe that people who aren't qualified or trained should try and play junior therapist. The results usually leave much to be desired, and for this reason, I don't normally comment on people's problems beyond addiction and recovery, which I do have experience with. Granted, I am certainly tempted to do so sometimes, but in general, I don't believe this is a good idea.

BadCompany

Recovery is a blood sport.

Terminally Unique

And now you've intentionally re-directed it towards the topic of 'program wars'. Careful what you wish for.

Perhaps a separate forum for "never-ending debates with no conceivable resolution" is in order? We could throw all the 'classics' in there.

RobbyRobot

Yup. The Right Stuff. Awesome.

Threshold

I've intentionally redirected it to the issue that this thread was intended to address. Not program wars, but the activity on the forum that may be turning people away.

justhadenough

Interesting thread. I've always found SR very supportive. I agree sometimes people do speak harshly but I've always found them being honest, trying to help as they have been in the position of the newcomer. Maybe people do forget how vulnerable we feel at the start but I've never seen anything particularly nasty or bullying.

People do choose different paths and naturally people do talk about what worked for them as that is what they know best and what worked for them.

Sapling-we are on different paths but I've always found you very helpful, kind and supportive-please don't change.

Terminally Unique

Oh, it's perfectly fine by me, Threshold, but "one person pitting their mode of recovery against another person or parading around how perfectly they work their own program" (your words) = 'program wars'.

Regarding your remark about 'saving lives', though, I personally have no such lofty ideals. I believe addicted people are perfectly capable of saving their own lives, just as they are perfectly capable of destroying them. Contrary to what most people in recovery say, getting high does have its benefits, however primal and limited they may be, and it also has its many downsides. Addicted people are free to choose either way, provided they are willing to pay the price.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, interesting thread for sure.

I don't agree that the bar has to be set at the level of bullying or being nasty before things have gone south though, okay? That is already extreme when it reaches those levels.

Honesty?

Well, let's be honest about honesty, then, okay? Everybody has struggles with honesty. All of us at times need to examine ourselves or we go off the beam. Saying that so and so is "honest" simply because they have tried to help others is not enough for me to think of them as being "honest". Help being helpful is simply what it is... honesty is something else. Help being sincere and from experience is helpful.

Understanding the struggles, failures, and successes and how one journey's through those experiences is a great barometer of a persons honesty, imo.

Telling others what to do is not the same as sharing what has been done by the helper. Experience is invaluable. Advice not so much.

RobbyRobot

Seriously?

Hmmm. Drugs and alcohol can kill addicts dead. "Getting high" as you put it TU, would only have a benefit if the addict looks forward to being successfully dead as they chase their suicidal experiences of "getting high."

Being dead has benefits?

What are you thinking?

justhadenough

I never said it did.

If you want to be pedantic about honesty and I do think you are reading too much into what I said-then yes I do think people are being truthful about their experiences. Call it what you like-help/support. I do not believe that people sit about SR lying and trying to twist things, so yes to me people have always put things across with an honest perspective. Maybe different people interpret things differently

RobbyRobot

Yeah, no problem. I do believe that some people sit around SR lying and trying to twist things.

Alcoholics and drug addicts. Lying?!

Yeah. I think so.

Just lies? No, of course not.

No lies?

c'mon.....

Terminally Unique

The noose will almost certainly tighten as they keep chasing that buzz, until everything collapses around them. This is why some people feel passionately inclined to warn others about what lies ahead. Being dead isn't the benefit — it is the price addicted people will ultimate pay if they don't change the course.