Perturbed
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,631
As a newcomer who has really struggled, I have had people say things that truly bothered me. But as I have gotten a little stronger in my sobriety, I realize that those statements have always been correct. They did hurt my feelings, but I think I needed to hear them.
I myself simply try to share my own struggle with people as I don't think I really am much of an expert, but I try to be supportive and I think sometimes it helps.
So we are all on a journey and sometimes we bump into each other. I guess so long as we try to be kind SR remains a very important place for us.
I myself simply try to share my own struggle with people as I don't think I really am much of an expert, but I try to be supportive and I think sometimes it helps.
So we are all on a journey and sometimes we bump into each other. I guess so long as we try to be kind SR remains a very important place for us.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 27
Not sure what I missed these last few days but my newbie self can tell you this....the good folks here posting encouragement, advice, experience, and support by far outweigh the rest.
And by "the rest", I mean folks who may be trying to be helpful but could maybe work on their delivery. Or the ones who may be experiencing some bitterness in their own journey and that is leaking through.
I have been lurking around here for a while. Not posting too much (yet) but reading through so many threads. Can't say enough what a blessing this SR site is.
And by "the rest", I mean folks who may be trying to be helpful but could maybe work on their delivery. Or the ones who may be experiencing some bitterness in their own journey and that is leaking through.
I have been lurking around here for a while. Not posting too much (yet) but reading through so many threads. Can't say enough what a blessing this SR site is.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Peter G 
Sorry, truly, but some of the eggshells being presented here are far too delicate for anyone to try and actually walk on, unless of course this forum turns from the topic of alcoholism to perhaps 'Hello Kitty'. Certainly I don't mean to imply that everyone is wrong in arguing for a softer, gentler approach, but can't we just be a little more real here? I mean, really ... "Leave out anything negative"? "We're all here merely looking for support and encouragement"? Seriously? Seems a bit like some want us to leave the pink elephant out of our collective "Pink Elephants Suck" conversation.
I, for one, am not here simply to support or encourage the people who join here, if in doing so I am ignoring or glossing over conditions they present in their posts and questions. Firstly I didn't join to get support and encouragement. And the negativity of this dis-ease is something that needs to be pointed out, even at risk of being shocking to some. You can't always dress down a tornado, because eventually you risk sending some folks outside thinking it's just a windy day.
Personally, I came here not for a kind word. I came as a last resort, to get help, in any way, shape and form, from people who were experienced with this affliction. My alternative then was to just eat a bullet. Some that I've met here since joined for similar reasons. Perhaps, if anything, someone could open a "Support and Encouragement ONLY Section" where there is no brutal truth or unvarnished reality allowed in.
So some of you may want to excuse me, please, but I'm not here to say "please and thank you" if by doing so I am validating a new person's still sick, perverted alcoholic rationalizations. Some of us here shoot from the hip to - if nothing else - tell newbs they need to do the same when it comes to their drinking problems. This is a healthy message. Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead. Try.
I've heard "you poor thing", and "we love you Peter, it will get better" for years and years. And I drank my face off, sometimes taking a big pull from a bottle of Grey Goose while they were saying it. I didn't listen in spite of having such wonderful support. Funny though, when I had people both in my life AND here on SR finally say "sorry knucklehead, we won't take your $h!t anymore", I listened. It took those words, formed in sometimes harsh and scolding messages to literally force me to drop the ridiculous facade and get to work getting sober. Go figure.
Mind you that was me and I fully understand that some don't need/can't process the same message that I did. Some folks just need the kittens and candy bars. Cool. There are many members here happy to give out kittens and candy. It's all good. It's all necessary. However, like it or not, some people need a kick in the face. IMO and from my own personal experience it's a damned good thing there are veterans here unafraid to throw out their best roundhouse when required. If those people weren't here when I joined I might be dead right now. Both points of view are equally valid, both will serve to help that the newly joined, still-suffering alcoholic who NEEDS to hear what's really taken control of their lives.
Like others here, I have seen the absolute worst depths of this depraved condition. As such I treat it with the fear and respect it deserves when replying to new people. So when I see something worth commenting on, occasionally there is this sense of urgency that comes up in me, a sense of foreboding that an extremely important message is being actively glossed over by so many responses of the "support and encourage at all costs" variety. Thing is, there are times when both sides of this story need to be voiced I'm afraid, even if it risks exposing a nerve. Arguing that one POV is more valid than the other has the potential of negating one for the other. Seems almost dangerous to me.
Only speaking for myself of course, but if and when I shoot from the hip it's not because I'm overly emotionally invested or want to summarily kick someone when they're down, it's simply to relay my own experiences and communicate what I have learned that has helped me stay sober - with as much poignancy as I can muster. If someone can't take what I'm saying or is otherwise hyper sensitive to the prevailing message? Well dress it up however you like but that is not on me. This is an internet forum on Alcohol addiction, not Sunday School. New person or veteran, being overly sensitive is not my cross to bear and nothing I would ever apologize for having set off. Mind you if I give some unnecessary personal offense or offer an insult in no apparent context then I'm flat out wrong. Full stop. Otherwise, I will forever be happy as hell to offend someone's alcoholic, delusion-filled mind. We're grown folk here, not petulant children. If it's not a case of an overt personal insult, judging from a certain prevailing message I've found in this thread, it's obvious to me that some of us need to pull up our 'big boy pants'. If a newb or veteran can't manage to see beyond the semantics or someone's colloquial mannerisms to the true intent and message offered? Well that is not a problem that lay in the lap of the messenger, it's because the recipient of such expressed concern is still too sick and caught up to see past their own addicted mind. In such cases there's nothing available within this or any other forum that could make a difference to that person anyway. Those people aren't looking for support and encouragement anyway, they're looking for magic sober dust.
Let's not forget or otherwise ignore the fact that there are many still-suffering addicts who join boards like this all the time, only in an attempt to illicit from members exactly what they want to hear in order to keep on using. These types always leave in a flash once their decision to remain addicted and sick is questioned or called out by someone with experience. Happens all the time, here, in the rooms of AA, and anywhere else when an addict is just not ready to sober up and not yet ready to honestly confront their illness. Herein lies the conundrum we all face when dealing with a new person. Some newbs I've seen here leave with it being perfectly obvious that they were never once serious about quitting. In fact I've seen some who join just to wind us up for their own entertainment. More to the point, their lightning fast departure could have come just as easily from a bad hair day as with someone's slightly sarcastic response to a patently alcohol-induced rationalization.
I didn't see the thread that started this conversation. But I've seen many others. I read here every day, sometimes hours at a time. I only rarely see someone being raked over the coals that some of you are here describing. Most cases I see a great deal of carefully worded support with some reality peppered in for good measure. So again, please excuse if I am not getting the point.
I will say this; if this board ever becomes an addiction feeding "support me", "love me", "understand me" crock of nonsense, without the alternative POV being equally respected and presented, I would certainly stop posting and delete my profile. I just wouldn't want to be a part of something as wonderful as SR devolve into such counter-intuitive banter. And I say that with a great deal of pause and sadness, because personally, SR in it's many seeming cold and insensitive ways, along with it's many love and supporting ways, has done nothing short of save my life.
I, for one, am not here simply to support or encourage the people who join here, if in doing so I am ignoring or glossing over conditions they present in their posts and questions. Firstly I didn't join to get support and encouragement. And the negativity of this dis-ease is something that needs to be pointed out, even at risk of being shocking to some. You can't always dress down a tornado, because eventually you risk sending some folks outside thinking it's just a windy day.
Personally, I came here not for a kind word. I came as a last resort, to get help, in any way, shape and form, from people who were experienced with this affliction. My alternative then was to just eat a bullet. Some that I've met here since joined for similar reasons. Perhaps, if anything, someone could open a "Support and Encouragement ONLY Section" where there is no brutal truth or unvarnished reality allowed in.
So some of you may want to excuse me, please, but I'm not here to say "please and thank you" if by doing so I am validating a new person's still sick, perverted alcoholic rationalizations. Some of us here shoot from the hip to - if nothing else - tell newbs they need to do the same when it comes to their drinking problems. This is a healthy message. Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead. Try.
I've heard "you poor thing", and "we love you Peter, it will get better" for years and years. And I drank my face off, sometimes taking a big pull from a bottle of Grey Goose while they were saying it. I didn't listen in spite of having such wonderful support. Funny though, when I had people both in my life AND here on SR finally say "sorry knucklehead, we won't take your $h!t anymore", I listened. It took those words, formed in sometimes harsh and scolding messages to literally force me to drop the ridiculous facade and get to work getting sober. Go figure.
Mind you that was me and I fully understand that some don't need/can't process the same message that I did. Some folks just need the kittens and candy bars. Cool. There are many members here happy to give out kittens and candy. It's all good. It's all necessary. However, like it or not, some people need a kick in the face. IMO and from my own personal experience it's a damned good thing there are veterans here unafraid to throw out their best roundhouse when required. If those people weren't here when I joined I might be dead right now. Both points of view are equally valid, both will serve to help that the newly joined, still-suffering alcoholic who NEEDS to hear what's really taken control of their lives.
Like others here, I have seen the absolute worst depths of this depraved condition. As such I treat it with the fear and respect it deserves when replying to new people. So when I see something worth commenting on, occasionally there is this sense of urgency that comes up in me, a sense of foreboding that an extremely important message is being actively glossed over by so many responses of the "support and encourage at all costs" variety. Thing is, there are times when both sides of this story need to be voiced I'm afraid, even if it risks exposing a nerve. Arguing that one POV is more valid than the other has the potential of negating one for the other. Seems almost dangerous to me.
Only speaking for myself of course, but if and when I shoot from the hip it's not because I'm overly emotionally invested or want to summarily kick someone when they're down, it's simply to relay my own experiences and communicate what I have learned that has helped me stay sober - with as much poignancy as I can muster. If someone can't take what I'm saying or is otherwise hyper sensitive to the prevailing message? Well dress it up however you like but that is not on me. This is an internet forum on Alcohol addiction, not Sunday School. New person or veteran, being overly sensitive is not my cross to bear and nothing I would ever apologize for having set off. Mind you if I give some unnecessary personal offense or offer an insult in no apparent context then I'm flat out wrong. Full stop. Otherwise, I will forever be happy as hell to offend someone's alcoholic, delusion-filled mind. We're grown folk here, not petulant children. If it's not a case of an overt personal insult, judging from a certain prevailing message I've found in this thread, it's obvious to me that some of us need to pull up our 'big boy pants'. If a newb or veteran can't manage to see beyond the semantics or someone's colloquial mannerisms to the true intent and message offered? Well that is not a problem that lay in the lap of the messenger, it's because the recipient of such expressed concern is still too sick and caught up to see past their own addicted mind. In such cases there's nothing available within this or any other forum that could make a difference to that person anyway. Those people aren't looking for support and encouragement anyway, they're looking for magic sober dust.
Let's not forget or otherwise ignore the fact that there are many still-suffering addicts who join boards like this all the time, only in an attempt to illicit from members exactly what they want to hear in order to keep on using. These types always leave in a flash once their decision to remain addicted and sick is questioned or called out by someone with experience. Happens all the time, here, in the rooms of AA, and anywhere else when an addict is just not ready to sober up and not yet ready to honestly confront their illness. Herein lies the conundrum we all face when dealing with a new person. Some newbs I've seen here leave with it being perfectly obvious that they were never once serious about quitting. In fact I've seen some who join just to wind us up for their own entertainment. More to the point, their lightning fast departure could have come just as easily from a bad hair day as with someone's slightly sarcastic response to a patently alcohol-induced rationalization.
I didn't see the thread that started this conversation. But I've seen many others. I read here every day, sometimes hours at a time. I only rarely see someone being raked over the coals that some of you are here describing. Most cases I see a great deal of carefully worded support with some reality peppered in for good measure. So again, please excuse if I am not getting the point.
I will say this; if this board ever becomes an addiction feeding "support me", "love me", "understand me" crock of nonsense, without the alternative POV being equally respected and presented, I would certainly stop posting and delete my profile. I just wouldn't want to be a part of something as wonderful as SR devolve into such counter-intuitive banter. And I say that with a great deal of pause and sadness, because personally, SR in it's many seeming cold and insensitive ways, along with it's many love and supporting ways, has done nothing short of save my life.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...red-dying.html
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,443
I really don't think this thread should become about specific posts or threads - noones pointing fingers and noones on trial here 
Thats so not why I started the discussion - it's been a great thread and I'd hate it to lose its focus.
D
Thats so not why I started the discussion - it's been a great thread and I'd hate it to lose its focus.
D
I'm here to learn!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: I'm on it!
Posts: 2,038
I think what it comes down to is a matter of pride. When I get confrontational or brash with other people it's because I want to be right, or I think of my way as the only right way, or I become judgmental of other people. I know in the past that I have posted out of this tendency, and I certainly hope that if I have offended anyone that they will accept this open apology and forgive me of that. We are all learning here.
There is a big difference between that and just being honest. I tend to say things rather directly I think, without sugarcoating, but at the same time I try to be charitable and understanding in my posts. I am naturally a very confrontational person, and one of the things I have been trying to learn in my recovery is how to be more circumspect in my perspective and more patient in my dealings.
Finally, I think there is some truth to the fact that many of us recognize the same qualities in newcomers that we experienced ourselves when we were new to recovery, and that we only wish that others could avoid the mistakes and misconceptions that we had when we were in early recovery. I think in this case however, it is best to speak out of personal experience and share what we have learned from our own perspective rather than trying to force our own views on someone else.
There is a big difference between that and just being honest. I tend to say things rather directly I think, without sugarcoating, but at the same time I try to be charitable and understanding in my posts. I am naturally a very confrontational person, and one of the things I have been trying to learn in my recovery is how to be more circumspect in my perspective and more patient in my dealings.
Finally, I think there is some truth to the fact that many of us recognize the same qualities in newcomers that we experienced ourselves when we were new to recovery, and that we only wish that others could avoid the mistakes and misconceptions that we had when we were in early recovery. I think in this case however, it is best to speak out of personal experience and share what we have learned from our own perspective rather than trying to force our own views on someone else.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
"Moderation, born of rebellion, can only live by rebellion. It is a perpetual conflict, continually created and mastered by the intelligence. It does not triumph either in the impossible or in the abyss. It finds its equilibrium through them. Whatever we may do, excess will always keep its place in the heart of man, in the place where solitude is found. We all carry within us our places of exile, our crimes and our ravages. But our task is not to unleash them on the world; it is to fight them in ourselves and in others."
— Albert Camus (L'Homme Révolté)
I'm here to learn!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: I'm on it!
Posts: 2,038
Oh, and I will add that there have been times where I have been like I mentioned above and other members have kindly PM'ed me to share how my shortsightedness may have offended them, and for that I'm truly grateful.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Dee74
I really don't think this thread should become about specific posts or threads - noones pointing fingers and noones on trial here
Thats so not why I started the discussion - it's been a great thread and I'd hate it to lose its focus.
D
Thats so not why I started the discussion - it's been a great thread and I'd hate it to lose its focus.
D
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,180
Courageous post Dee...really like your style my friend...hope it is okay I call you that...
I will offer one opinion.
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum. For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
I think if you want to be the guy that kicks people in the face, you have to be willing to share and work with that person for at least a few months before you can even begin to earn the right to take a hard line with that person.
I will offer one opinion.
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum. For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
I think if you want to be the guy that kicks people in the face, you have to be willing to share and work with that person for at least a few months before you can even begin to earn the right to take a hard line with that person.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,451
Sapling, the first time I recall having an exchange with you, I believe it got a little testy. And no question, you and I are on different paths through recovery. But I just want to publicly say what I've already told you privately: I've been blown away by your efforts to help newcomers. Last Sunday—to cite just one example—I saw you single-handedly talk a newcomer off the proverbial ledge. No one else was around, and when I came across the thread, you had been exchanging posts with the newbie for quite a while. You even let her know when you were stepping out for a smoke and that you'd be back in five minutes. That was simply awesome, my friend.
Actually, come to think of it, several of the people I respect the most at SR ticked me off at one time or another. Probably a lesson in there for me.
Actually, come to think of it, several of the people I respect the most at SR ticked me off at one time or another. Probably a lesson in there for me.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
When I was new to recovery I had very definite and concrete convictions about what I "needed." Truthfully, what I said I needed was really just what I wanted.....what I needed was a lot of stuff I didn't believe would be helpful nor did I even WANT.
When someone comes on this board or into a meeting.....is new.......is floundering with the idea of getting sober (and they really don't even know what their addiction really looks like, what sobriety looks like, how it's going to work or what to do to get there....) I try to keep in mind I was in exactly that same spot.
Usually I try to "press" just a bit.....but in a kind way. There's never a shortage of "you can do it's", "hugzzz," and other similar stuff that there's no need for me to hop on the bandwagon. I usually try to shine a light on some areas that were problematic for me but unrecognized until someone encouraged me to look at them.
Typically, new ppl think that's being mean, or without compassion......when the truth couldn't be further from the perception. There are times, however, when in our zeal to shine the light of truth, we can get a bit too critical.......or push too hard. It's fair to say that I've been both too compassionate and too harsh.......both of which are harmful to someone new to recovery. To suggest all you need is a hug, some encouragement or another attempt to summon your will can be as damaging as telling someone they don't have a clue what they're doing and they better get their butt to a meeting, devote their life to recovery, or find God.
AA has a tradition that supposed to be followed by AA members: "We deal in attraction rather than promotion." It's a tough one to follow. It puts all the pressure on the "experienced" member to present their recovery as so attractive that an onlooker would want to be part of the action. I think, this "tradition" would be appropriate for any brand of recovery, AA or not.
Not to put words in Dee's mouth (he doesn't need me to do that for him, that's for sure) but I think it's appropriate that everyone on this board whos been around more than a handful of months take this thread as an opportunity to look at themselves, their posts, and make an educated decision about how well they're carrying their message of recovery. Is it attractive......or is it confrontational and/or unattractive? Again, I think it's absolutely appropriate to point out inconsistancies, flaws in thought patterns, and to shine the light of truth on someone's posts when they're missing something important or believing their own BS (and that goes for me too...... I'm not infallible) but all this can be done in a professional and attractive way.
Now is a good opportunity for some self-examination and possibly some changes in how we post.......that's all. If you, like I, find some posts of yours that could have been phrased better....then make some adjustments from this point forward. Everyone benefits......from the message carrier to the message receiver.
I've put myself on "newcomers" probation more than a couple times in the handful of years I've been here. I get frustrated when someone is dying from alcoholism, all they hear are "try again," and I watch that person fail and fail and fail. I know, one of these times, that next failure might cost them their life. Occasionally, in my attempts to point out that maybe their version of trying is wholly insufficient, I've overstepped the lines of attraction and leap-frogged right into direction.....or speaking down to someone. From that angle, I'm not effective. Many of us are or have been guilty of exactly the same thing..... The deal is, we can learn from our mistakes.... It's nothing personal, just a bell going off to remind us to be cognizant of what we're saying and who we're talking to.
When someone comes on this board or into a meeting.....is new.......is floundering with the idea of getting sober (and they really don't even know what their addiction really looks like, what sobriety looks like, how it's going to work or what to do to get there....) I try to keep in mind I was in exactly that same spot.
Usually I try to "press" just a bit.....but in a kind way. There's never a shortage of "you can do it's", "hugzzz," and other similar stuff that there's no need for me to hop on the bandwagon. I usually try to shine a light on some areas that were problematic for me but unrecognized until someone encouraged me to look at them.
Typically, new ppl think that's being mean, or without compassion......when the truth couldn't be further from the perception. There are times, however, when in our zeal to shine the light of truth, we can get a bit too critical.......or push too hard. It's fair to say that I've been both too compassionate and too harsh.......both of which are harmful to someone new to recovery. To suggest all you need is a hug, some encouragement or another attempt to summon your will can be as damaging as telling someone they don't have a clue what they're doing and they better get their butt to a meeting, devote their life to recovery, or find God.
AA has a tradition that supposed to be followed by AA members: "We deal in attraction rather than promotion." It's a tough one to follow. It puts all the pressure on the "experienced" member to present their recovery as so attractive that an onlooker would want to be part of the action. I think, this "tradition" would be appropriate for any brand of recovery, AA or not.
Not to put words in Dee's mouth (he doesn't need me to do that for him, that's for sure) but I think it's appropriate that everyone on this board whos been around more than a handful of months take this thread as an opportunity to look at themselves, their posts, and make an educated decision about how well they're carrying their message of recovery. Is it attractive......or is it confrontational and/or unattractive? Again, I think it's absolutely appropriate to point out inconsistancies, flaws in thought patterns, and to shine the light of truth on someone's posts when they're missing something important or believing their own BS (and that goes for me too...... I'm not infallible) but all this can be done in a professional and attractive way.
Now is a good opportunity for some self-examination and possibly some changes in how we post.......that's all. If you, like I, find some posts of yours that could have been phrased better....then make some adjustments from this point forward. Everyone benefits......from the message carrier to the message receiver.
I've put myself on "newcomers" probation more than a couple times in the handful of years I've been here. I get frustrated when someone is dying from alcoholism, all they hear are "try again," and I watch that person fail and fail and fail. I know, one of these times, that next failure might cost them their life. Occasionally, in my attempts to point out that maybe their version of trying is wholly insufficient, I've overstepped the lines of attraction and leap-frogged right into direction.....or speaking down to someone. From that angle, I'm not effective. Many of us are or have been guilty of exactly the same thing..... The deal is, we can learn from our mistakes.... It's nothing personal, just a bell going off to remind us to be cognizant of what we're saying and who we're talking to.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 456
I can think of at least one instance where I was cold to some posts by a newcomer. I should have just stepped back. I said some things in a matter of fact way that I would probably say in person but only because it would be part of a one-on-one conversation.
Even in sobriety we still have our moods...I'll just try to be more mindful.
One thing I've learned in business where we communicate via email 10X more than phone: email can be read in many different ways. The same email can sound sarcastic, caring, or neutral depending on the state of mind of the reader.
Even in sobriety we still have our moods...I'll just try to be more mindful.
One thing I've learned in business where we communicate via email 10X more than phone: email can be read in many different ways. The same email can sound sarcastic, caring, or neutral depending on the state of mind of the reader.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Newburgh
Posts: 868
It's all about balance. Many of the people who come on here have never been shown love, encouraged, or supported from childhood on up. But there is no sugar coating the stark realities of jails or death. The key is to find a balance in the way that we communicate this to others.
God bless.
God bless.
Groovy Dancer
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The States
Posts: 4,751
I am routinely amazed at how supportive people on SR are. Overall, the environment is very positive. From my experience, a forum + anonymous screen names + personal issues = people that are jerks. SR bucks that trend.
I do appreciate your concern Dee, as it is a good reminder. I have been guilty of being a prikk on more than one occasion. I apologize outright with no excuses for that.
I also agree a direct honest approach can be what people need. I don't think that approach is at odds with the purpose of this Thread either.
Sapling - I read that Thread you referenced and I don't think you wrote any thing wrong...for what it's worth.
Anyway...I appreciate all the work that goes into maintaining SR. Thank you!
I do appreciate your concern Dee, as it is a good reminder. I have been guilty of being a prikk on more than one occasion. I apologize outright with no excuses for that.
I also agree a direct honest approach can be what people need. I don't think that approach is at odds with the purpose of this Thread either.
Sapling - I read that Thread you referenced and I don't think you wrote any thing wrong...for what it's worth.
Anyway...I appreciate all the work that goes into maintaining SR. Thank you!
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
I have to applaud you Dee (and the "management" here) for insisting on a certain level of kindness and respect. I think that goes to show how much you care about the people here and the purpose of this forum. This is more than a discussion group or a social outlet - it's therapeutic as well.
When I first came here, I was amazed at how much people cared. I found understanding, inspiration and hope - all through the words on a page. It turned my life around.
So, this is serious business. Personally, I think we ought to put some thought into our responses - especially when it comes to someone who may be reaching out for the first time. It's a privilege really. and I hope to never forget that.
When I first came here, I was amazed at how much people cared. I found understanding, inspiration and hope - all through the words on a page. It turned my life around.
So, this is serious business. Personally, I think we ought to put some thought into our responses - especially when it comes to someone who may be reaching out for the first time. It's a privilege really. and I hope to never forget that.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum.
With that out of the way...
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
Addicted people have a tendency to confuse support, which I interpret as moral support (see my signature line), with mutual forgiveness for repeat drinking or using. Moral support encourages change, whereas mutual forgiveness serves only to foster and maintain the addiction. I will have no part in that.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum. For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
thankfully Bill Wilson recognized this truth when he visited Dr Bob. He didn't know the man at all......but he'd heard he was an alcoholic....like himself.....and thus AA was founded upon their experience that one alcoholic, working with another alcoholic, can lead to recovery.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I will offer one opinion.
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum. For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
I think if you want to be the guy that kicks people in the face, you have to be willing to share and work with that person for at least a few months before you can even begin to earn the right to take a hard line with that person.
I don't think you get to mete out tough love to someone unless you know that person...or at least have gotten to know them as much as one can in this forum. For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?
I think if you want to be the guy that kicks people in the face, you have to be willing to share and work with that person for at least a few months before you can even begin to earn the right to take a hard line with that person.
Bear in mind this was all far different from what I came here expecting. What I was looking for - once staying sober got a bit difficult - is the same thing many new folks come here looking to find... wiggle room... some way to apply/attach my own delusional cycles of alcoholism to their facts regarding my affliction. I was searching for an option that included drinking, or at least not ruling it out, and it pi$$ed me off to no end when I got told - under no false pretense - that drinking was no longer an option, along with many explanations as to why it was no longer an option. As freshly 'newb' as I was at the time, having literally no clue about the addiction/recovery paradigm, my alcoholic brain was none-the-less a full-tilt skilled professional at explaining away, ignoring and re-purposing anything not said to me in specific black and white terms. As it is with most of us when we first come to need sobriety I dare say. By being abrupt and short they didn't allow my addict brain the option of ignoring or manipulating one single thing. I could try of course, but the brutal honesty of their words never failed at proving my alcoholic mind a bold faced liar.
As a newb I didn't know then that I was attempting these mental gymnastics and feats of delusional grandeur in order to serve the beast that ruled me. The blokes (and a few ladies) here who saw through my BS did know it however, they saw it then like I can see it now in others, by way of the questions and opinions of my threads and posts. And they wasted no time in communicating these many inarguable truths to me.
Did I like hearing these things? Hell no. I hated it. Was it exactly what was required for me at the time? Damned straight it was. And just so you know, I didn't always 'get it' immediately. I actually put a few folks on ignore after some long cussing diatribes of my own, until that one day when some of the things these horrid, mean folks pointed out to me became as apparent as frikin sunlight. When that happened, and it did with unnerving regularity, I was always man enough to come back to SR and PM an apology in the hopes that they could forgive my newb stubborn tenacity. Why would I bother apologizing? Because those few things, told to me months previous, or maybe that 1 particular phrase or abject lesson that made me feel like a useless t!t on the wrong side of a bull, eventually it was that insight that KEPT ME SOBER at a critical point in my recovery.
As for this rather odd point ...
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
"For those of you claiming to have been helped by such an approach...I would ask you if the bearers of this love were people that you respected and/or loved or someone that anonymously responded to a post in a thread on a website?"
I don't think anyone here "wants" to be the person that kicks someone in the face with the reality of this illness. Personally I'd much rather be the dude holding kittens and have a pocket full of candy for confused new folks. But none-the-less sometimes a hard dose of reality is absolutely required. If I am good for anything it is as living proof that this forum can truly save some of us. I'll add that I don't think anyone here is trying to play closet therapist or help someone deal with the problems they face in life - unless they are talking about one specific thing... alcoholism. We are here, sharing experience, strength, and hope, on 1 specific subject matter. A deadly serious one.
No one was ever speaking to me personally back then about my marital difficulties, or the fact that my dot.com stocks went bust. When they told me I was a complete idiot going to a bar and jamming with my drinking buddies at 3 weeks sober, they were telling me this as experts in ALCOHOLISM, not LIFE AFFIRMATION, and certainly not because they assumed to know me at all as a person. They didn't know me, they knew my dis-ease. Intimately. They knew that what I was dying from had once almost destroyed them, so within that framework they schooled me in ways to avoid making the mistakes they made. Eventually I stopped bitching completely and did nothing but heed the words given to me by these wonderful people, because plainly, as bitchy, self righteous, preachy, and horrid as they may have seemed initially, their immeasurable help had successfully kept me from drinking, at certain points literally STOPPED me, mid-flight, from relapsing.
A great deal of what I say on this forum is a direct result of how those folks shook me back to reality. Honoring the message that leads us all out of the pits, really. That's all I see most of us at SR doing. Some could tone down sure, some could pitch it up a few octaves as well. But by and large, the generalized nitpicking over some having a lack of sensitivity training? Meh, just my opinion, but that's a lot of smoke filled, coffee house noise. Obviously I do appreciate the dialogue. It's important for sure, as it reminds us all to be present and accounted for when we're posting. But honestly I don't think I've seen anything even remotely disrespectful here go una$$ed by other members or the mods. Like TU mentioned previously, this forum extremely temperate, in fact it's a walk in frikin Bunny Rabbit Park compared to others I've seen.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,711
When I first arrived at SR I remember thinking that the 'main thread' board was a place that on (many) occasion was not for the faint hearted. My daily support thread was a lot more personal and supportive (thank you all those of the class of June 11). If you want the "truth" however , as spoken by the brethren (and female equivalent) of the tribe then the rough and tumble of the main threads seemed the place.
Now I am a bit into my sobriety I am not as raw and so maybe I now see it a bit differently, but the main thread area still seems like the place to where robust discussion can be easily obtained. The people who come back and fess up have my utmost admiration for having the courage to do so. I hope collectively we give them the opportunity to review what is going on.
Dee's original post referred to those new to the board. We all benefit from the fact that there is a steady stream of people coming to join. There are those who lack an understanding of what they face, remain ambivalent about their choices, or can't get it going. I've been there, but I am not there anymore.
What ever keeps people coming back and engaging in the process, is vital, I hope SR never loses that mojo.
Now I am a bit into my sobriety I am not as raw and so maybe I now see it a bit differently, but the main thread area still seems like the place to where robust discussion can be easily obtained. The people who come back and fess up have my utmost admiration for having the courage to do so. I hope collectively we give them the opportunity to review what is going on.
Dee's original post referred to those new to the board. We all benefit from the fact that there is a steady stream of people coming to join. There are those who lack an understanding of what they face, remain ambivalent about their choices, or can't get it going. I've been there, but I am not there anymore.
What ever keeps people coming back and engaging in the process, is vital, I hope SR never loses that mojo.
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