Alcoholic "status" questioned by an old-timer
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Originally Posted by keithj 
I thought everyone was on the same page. This guy was doing a dis-service to the newcomer, and, despite his 31 years of sobriety, doesn't sound like he has a clue about what defines an alcoholic in AA.
That's no surprise either though. Plenty of what I hear in meetings has no basis on the experience gained from the BB.
That's no surprise either though. Plenty of what I hear in meetings has no basis on the experience gained from the BB.
My sponsor has always said that there are generally two types who come into the rooms and a sponsors job is to help them both. One type is where the ego is so big that it needs some deflating in order to make progress with their recovery and the other the feelings of low self esteem and worthlessness are so ingrained that they need "bigging up" in order to make progress with their recovery...this is the insight of 25 years of experience...
That said how the hell do i know which one you are when i first meet you in the rooms...experience or not?!
We could just stay away from psychology altogether and present, on an equal basis, the solution to alcoholism in a non-judgmental, non-opinionated, compassionate and caring manner...for anyone that has worked the steps, had a spiritual awakening and continues to work the principles in all of their affairs greeting a person in that "correct" manner would happen anyway...
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Originally Posted by Bamboozle
...and because they actually gave a crap about me I found it within myself to finally get some help.
People get loved to death every day in AA. Instead of being offered the solution, which begins with figuring out if I'm an alcoholic like described in the BB, we warmly put our arms around the newcomer and tell them it will be alright. The whole, sum total experience of AA is that it will not be alright unless they concede to their innermost self that they are an alcoholic.
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
... and a sponsors job is to help them both.
Two guys popped back up in the rooms last night, coming in from yet another treatment center. Both of them came into the fellowship a couple years ago and were given an easier, softer way, instead of being told the truth. It obviously didn't work out well.
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My own experience...
I was challenged in a similar way... "Maybe you aren't a real alcoholic", they said... It really rocked my world, for a lot of reasons, and remember, I didn't come in to the program because it was my idea, willingness came, at first, externally...
It was absolutely the best thing that could have happened, to be challenged in that way... If I wasn't alcoholic, then maybe I didn't need the 12 steps, maybe I could just put down the cup and my life would get better... If I was, well then, I had to let go completely and half measures would avail me nothing, not half, but nothing.
I have no problem with an old timer putting that challenge out there... as long as it's done for good reason... to allow that person the dignity to come to their own truth...
It seems to me that this challenge had the desired effect, DB, it helped strengthen the foundation of your first step, the one all the others are built on... So you had to kick the tires a little, go at the question with the possibility that you were not an alcoholic... unsettling, sure, it was for me, but it was exactly the question I needed to hear.
I was challenged in a similar way... "Maybe you aren't a real alcoholic", they said... It really rocked my world, for a lot of reasons, and remember, I didn't come in to the program because it was my idea, willingness came, at first, externally...
It was absolutely the best thing that could have happened, to be challenged in that way... If I wasn't alcoholic, then maybe I didn't need the 12 steps, maybe I could just put down the cup and my life would get better... If I was, well then, I had to let go completely and half measures would avail me nothing, not half, but nothing.
I have no problem with an old timer putting that challenge out there... as long as it's done for good reason... to allow that person the dignity to come to their own truth...
It seems to me that this challenge had the desired effect, DB, it helped strengthen the foundation of your first step, the one all the others are built on... So you had to kick the tires a little, go at the question with the possibility that you were not an alcoholic... unsettling, sure, it was for me, but it was exactly the question I needed to hear.
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The job of the sponsor is to guide their sponsee through the steps, not to make ridiculous comments regarding a persons education or job. (Why are we talking about sponsors now?)
Forget the fact that he is an old timer,( or was he?) he's a baffoon. One thing I came to realize...the number of years a person has been going to meetings has no bearing on their mental health. It is no ones position in AA to deflate someones ego and "big up" anothers low self esteem, although bigging up seems much more sensitive. Somewhere a long the way sponsors and Old timers have accepted a role that they are not qualified to engage in.
Forget the fact that he is an old timer,( or was he?) he's a baffoon. One thing I came to realize...the number of years a person has been going to meetings has no bearing on their mental health. It is no ones position in AA to deflate someones ego and "big up" anothers low self esteem, although bigging up seems much more sensitive. Somewhere a long the way sponsors and Old timers have accepted a role that they are not qualified to engage in.
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Or maybe..........that's just his way of trying to get the inside scoop on your problem. Maybe he was wanting you to open up and tell him a little of your story? You know the type, people who won't come right out and ask. Just maybe....
But you're right about it being a good thing is was you sat next to him. I could very well have been a green light for another!
But you're right about it being a good thing is was you sat next to him. I could very well have been a green light for another!
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I only attended about 6-10 AA meeting in the first 2 months of sobriety and 1 of the reasons I quit attending was because I also was questioned by a couple of people at the meetings whether or not I was a "real alcoholic", I then chose to follow my own path using the AA steps and principles as my guide just not going to meetings. Then when I first came to SR after being recovered for nearly 2 yrs I was twice told that I wasn't a "real alcoholic" because if I was I could not have recovered w/o AA. I've actually decided I'm NOT a "real alcoholic" and that actually pleases me I'm just somebody who had a bad drinking problem and now I dont have that problem anymore as I don't drink.
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Anyone who questions you with the "are you a real alcoholic" is an asshat and deserves to be shunned from your life.
I can imagine some people go to the AA meetings as a hobby to fill their meaningless life, or have been going for so long that they think of it as theres.
There's no a society in the world that I can think of that doesn't get cliquey. Think of work places, think of sports clubs. It's nature for some people and it makes them feel powerful. For example hell, all you have to do is look at various forums.
I can imagine some people go to the AA meetings as a hobby to fill their meaningless life, or have been going for so long that they think of it as theres.
There's no a society in the world that I can think of that doesn't get cliquey. Think of work places, think of sports clubs. It's nature for some people and it makes them feel powerful. For example hell, all you have to do is look at various forums.
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Originally Posted by Rickie
Anyone who questions you with the "are you a real alcoholic" is an asshat and deserves to be shunned from your life.
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The more I think of it the more the term "alcoholic" seems to be a label which is not particularly helpful. Even the experts seem to have trouble agreeing on what or who is an "alcoholic". There seem to be almost as many varieties as there are sufferers. The primary question might be, rather, "Is drinking causing problems in your life? Do you want to change that? If so, do you want to stop drinking?"
So arguably rather than starting off with "Hello! I'm ----- and I'm an alcoholic!" what about "Hello! Alcohol is causing too many problems in my life and I want to quit drinking." On the other hand, "alcoholic" sounds more dramatic and some folks at meetings like the drama. Also some other folks, such as "old timers", like to portray themselves as "gurus". Some of them masquerade as "only beginners, just like you" but in reality they seem pretty proud of themselves and think they know all the ropes. Sometimes they have some good suggestions. But make up your own mind about what you choose to believe and do.
W.
So arguably rather than starting off with "Hello! I'm ----- and I'm an alcoholic!" what about "Hello! Alcohol is causing too many problems in my life and I want to quit drinking." On the other hand, "alcoholic" sounds more dramatic and some folks at meetings like the drama. Also some other folks, such as "old timers", like to portray themselves as "gurus". Some of them masquerade as "only beginners, just like you" but in reality they seem pretty proud of themselves and think they know all the ropes. Sometimes they have some good suggestions. But make up your own mind about what you choose to believe and do.
W.
Last edited by wpainterw; 03-03-2011 at 08:49 AM. Reason: typo
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Jamdls,
I had exactly the same happen to me!
The most recent episode was a few months ago when I ran into a fellow aa member who asked me if I was OK because he hadn't seen me at meetings anymore. His tone was desperate sounding and his eyes bugged out. I told him that I was very well and his response.... after he peered into my eyes and moved as close as he could without standing on my feet was, Hmmmm, maybe you aren't a real alcoholic afterall. Since it wasn't the first i had been told that by aa'ers I had seen in passing, I said "Hmmm, maybe I'm not afterall."
I had exactly the same happen to me!
The most recent episode was a few months ago when I ran into a fellow aa member who asked me if I was OK because he hadn't seen me at meetings anymore. His tone was desperate sounding and his eyes bugged out. I told him that I was very well and his response.... after he peered into my eyes and moved as close as he could without standing on my feet was, Hmmmm, maybe you aren't a real alcoholic afterall. Since it wasn't the first i had been told that by aa'ers I had seen in passing, I said "Hmmm, maybe I'm not afterall."
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Keith I don't believe it's any sponsors job to make anyone question whether or not they are an alcoholic and this was not the OP's sponsor. If someone is questioning their "status" they might ask for help in determining such.
The original posters point was that he had been to this particular meeting for the first time. It wasn't his first meeting ever. They had never met before. If anyone asks me what I do for a living or where I went to school upon meeting me, at ANY venue, I consider it highly ignorant and rude. His question was likely a result of minimal social skills imo and not trying to 'weed' out alcoholic vs not alcoholic in the first 5 minutes of meeting him. Sheesh....
That said, the OP's point was that IT COULD have prompted a newbie to hear what he/she might have wanted to hear and bolted. Wasn't THAT the point OP?
The original posters point was that he had been to this particular meeting for the first time. It wasn't his first meeting ever. They had never met before. If anyone asks me what I do for a living or where I went to school upon meeting me, at ANY venue, I consider it highly ignorant and rude. His question was likely a result of minimal social skills imo and not trying to 'weed' out alcoholic vs not alcoholic in the first 5 minutes of meeting him. Sheesh....
That said, the OP's point was that IT COULD have prompted a newbie to hear what he/she might have wanted to hear and bolted. Wasn't THAT the point OP?
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Originally Posted by wpainterw
The more I think of it the more the term "alcoholic" seems to be a label which is not particularly helpful.
For the purpose of recovery, in the program of AA, there is a definition available that those of us in AA can agree upon.... This is, in my opinion, where the arguments start... where AA and non AAs interact and there is the inevitable disagreement....
Peace
Mark
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gerryP,
We are in full agreement that the guy who approached the OP was way out of line. Although I don't know his motives, I'd guess it came from that ego driven, one upmanship, crap that goes on all over the place. What's even sadder (because jerks exist everywhere), is that the 'qualifying' was done on the basis of nothing that has to do with AA's description of an alcoholic. Absolutely counter to our program.
I also agree that a sponsor's job is to show someone how to take the Steps so that they can have a spiritual awakening and recover from alcoholism. The first part of showing someone how to take the Steps is showing them what Step 1 means. We skip that part, and the rest is pretty pointless.
The BB spends 50 some pages talking about that Step 1 stuff, clearly defining the characteristics of an alkie, and clearly distinguishing the alkie from the moderate and hard drinker.
I've seen it a lot, gerryP, where a new person never gets a real Step 1. They end up in the rooms for whatever reason, and they never consider whether or not they can quit drinking on a non-spiritual basis. They can't find the solution because they are never presented with the problem. There's an example of a guy posting this morning that fits this perfectly. Full of the notion that he just needs to apply more will power to the problem. He has that notion because nobody in AA has sat down and really looked at the problem with him.
We are in full agreement that the guy who approached the OP was way out of line. Although I don't know his motives, I'd guess it came from that ego driven, one upmanship, crap that goes on all over the place. What's even sadder (because jerks exist everywhere), is that the 'qualifying' was done on the basis of nothing that has to do with AA's description of an alcoholic. Absolutely counter to our program.
I also agree that a sponsor's job is to show someone how to take the Steps so that they can have a spiritual awakening and recover from alcoholism. The first part of showing someone how to take the Steps is showing them what Step 1 means. We skip that part, and the rest is pretty pointless.
The BB spends 50 some pages talking about that Step 1 stuff, clearly defining the characteristics of an alkie, and clearly distinguishing the alkie from the moderate and hard drinker.
I've seen it a lot, gerryP, where a new person never gets a real Step 1. They end up in the rooms for whatever reason, and they never consider whether or not they can quit drinking on a non-spiritual basis. They can't find the solution because they are never presented with the problem. There's an example of a guy posting this morning that fits this perfectly. Full of the notion that he just needs to apply more will power to the problem. He has that notion because nobody in AA has sat down and really looked at the problem with him.
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Originally Posted by gerryP
I don't believe it's any sponsors job to make anyone question whether or not they are an alcoholic
We do the newcomer a disservice when we don't constructively qualify them.
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It's all how we perceive people. I probably would have just looked at him and said "yea, unfortunately I am an alkie" and I'd smile and sit down. For all we know he might be some old guy lonely and friendly. I could not for the life of me see how that question could be so "serious". For real...
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I gottcha keith.
When I first went to aa I was powerless over alcohol when I drank it. My life was unmanageable based on how my life was before I was a drinker. I didn't have a spiritual awakening, I didn't want to live the way I was living any longer, so I stopped. I don't drink still and have no desire to have even one, not now not ever, because...well it doesn't serve me any purpose. End of story.
I am no longer powerless over alcohol and my life is manageable, as much as anyone's can be on a bad day and very manageable on a good day.
When I first went to aa I was powerless over alcohol when I drank it. My life was unmanageable based on how my life was before I was a drinker. I didn't have a spiritual awakening, I didn't want to live the way I was living any longer, so I stopped. I don't drink still and have no desire to have even one, not now not ever, because...well it doesn't serve me any purpose. End of story.
I am no longer powerless over alcohol and my life is manageable, as much as anyone's can be on a bad day and very manageable on a good day.
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What is this stuff on "verifying" whether someone is or isn't an alcoholic?
Where on earth does that come from? It never occurred to me while in the rooms to attempt to qualify anyone. What gives anyone the idea that they are in a position to verify if anyone is or isn't, or have the right to?
I often heard people in the rooms say "Hey, I'm not god" darn right you ain't god, so stop acting like you are. If I said "I'm not a cheese sandwich, that would be strange wouldn't it? Everyone can see that I am clearly NOT a cheese sandwich.
Where on earth does that come from? It never occurred to me while in the rooms to attempt to qualify anyone. What gives anyone the idea that they are in a position to verify if anyone is or isn't, or have the right to?
I often heard people in the rooms say "Hey, I'm not god" darn right you ain't god, so stop acting like you are. If I said "I'm not a cheese sandwich, that would be strange wouldn't it? Everyone can see that I am clearly NOT a cheese sandwich.
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gerryP: I agree completely, except for the part that you say you are not a cheese sandwich. I can't agree with that unless I look at you and perhaps take a bite.
Seriously, this business of "qualifying" other persons when you happen upon them in AA really puzzles me. For example, some meetings are open meetings. Anyone and everyone is welcome. As to the closed ones, I have been told that "the only qualification for membership is the willingness to stop drinking." Thus a person need not acknowledge that he or she is an alcoholic in order to attend even a closed meeting. Only acknowledge that he or she wants to stop drinking. As to Step 1, that's up to the person exclusively. To suggest that a person should not even be attending a meeting because he or she is not "qualified" to take Step 1 does not seem right. Some persons never get through Step 1 but if they know about it and are willing to try then it's all up to them. No one should second guess them and say they don't "belong". Finally, in case of any doubt I believe that we should err, if we do, on the side of welcoming folks, as long as they're not disruptive or behave in some inappropriate manner.
W.
Seriously, this business of "qualifying" other persons when you happen upon them in AA really puzzles me. For example, some meetings are open meetings. Anyone and everyone is welcome. As to the closed ones, I have been told that "the only qualification for membership is the willingness to stop drinking." Thus a person need not acknowledge that he or she is an alcoholic in order to attend even a closed meeting. Only acknowledge that he or she wants to stop drinking. As to Step 1, that's up to the person exclusively. To suggest that a person should not even be attending a meeting because he or she is not "qualified" to take Step 1 does not seem right. Some persons never get through Step 1 but if they know about it and are willing to try then it's all up to them. No one should second guess them and say they don't "belong". Finally, in case of any doubt I believe that we should err, if we do, on the side of welcoming folks, as long as they're not disruptive or behave in some inappropriate manner.
W.
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