Hooped

I could throw my ten cents in here I guess.
Ive been going to a meeting once a week, very large.
Hoping to blend into the 'crowd'. Safety in numbers.
I have no desire to share anything with anybody.
There are old timers there that blow my mind.
Hangin in or hangin on for the latest 'cake' I swear
These people do nothing for my recovery.
They must check the schedule and make the latest cake run.
My feeling is ....its not a 'social club'......and the people who treat it as such **** me right off.

Pete55

Ok, I have had this similar expirience, in my early days in AA. First time by a dude running a steps meeting, the second time by my first sponsor, who insisted I read a certain part of the BB and find out the meaning of the first half of Step 1.
He specificaly wanted me to go through the BB, read it and actually find where, why and how am I a real alcoholic, then define powerless before we go further.
I had total faith he knew what he was doing. What other choice was there?!!

But, I could not "see" what he wanted of me. In other words, he was not going to dish it out on a platter.
That was his method, that is not the question.
( he got sacked by the way, 18 months went by-personal issues, I thanked him for showing me up to that point), I asked another old timer I need a sponsor, he suggested I pray.
This I did, and bingo, someone shared, we went through the book. I went to meetings, to look for a sponsor, and when ya hear somone share, you instictively "know".

So I have had 3 sponsors and all 3 very expirienced with sponsees, and more or less in principle the sponsor has a need to know if a sponsee is a real alcoholic, or we are wasting each others time.

All three , I felt resentfull at these guys for questioning my inner-self if I am real alcoholic.
Because if you are not, you will not find it in the BB and "feel" it, you will not ID with the basic text as having the same inner-experience once alcohol is consumed.

So the real question the old timer was probing, and teasing you perhaps, just like I was sort of teased was, if I KNOW what it means to be the real alcoholic.
It has nothing to do with how many times I been in prison, or divorces, education etc etc, it's about the inner-expirience, and the abnormal re-action as described in the BB.

Sure, the entire population on this planet that can read it and may see it to, and have knowledge as in theory, but will never understand that inner-expirience, the invisbilty of this disease, the BB "lights up" and glows each time a passage is read and the "penny/nickel drops".

It reminds of that song,
"we stab it with our steely knives, but just can't kill the beast"

If you still have a resentment with this old timer, kill the resentment by asking him to be your sponsor, and see what happens!!

micealc

Never judge the Book by Its Cover.
Im Alcoholic Cross addicted sense 1966............that is I depended on Both Alcohol and Tranqualisers to Cope with living,shortly after.
In 1986 I got clean from both.............And I have Attended AA meetings sense then.
About 2 years ago I started an ACOA meeting as I was not Happy with the Way I was Still Feeling,Fearful,Anxious,Worrying.
Once I read the Laundry List Of Acoa and the problem I am Sure I have Found my original Disease or dysfunction .
I suffered, as they say in AA,..........from grave Emotional and mental Disorders,but many of of us do recover if we have the capacity to be Honest.

I could Identify with some AA members drinking stories but not with their overall life stories. Neither of my Parents were Alcoholics.

I followed one ACOA members story of recovery on another Site..........She was the Female Equivelent of me Mentally @Emotionally...................but she never drank.....She was...... Para Alcoholic.....IE =Infected by Generations of Dysfunctional Copeing Skills.She had felt like me before I picked up a Drink or Drug.
Today I try not to Judge Anyone..........even though they may be young attending Meetings they could be carrying years of Bad dysfunctional Attitudes withen their families of origin.

Thats my ESH on the Matter.

FrothyJay

I can see why you feel this way, but I think it depends on how you define religion and spirituality. They are different concepts, and often confused.

For instance, are you saying AA is a religion, or it respects certain religions over others (i.e., Christianity?)

Certainly there are Judeo-Christian elements to AA-- the notions of sin, atonement, etc. Most religions have these themes throughout them.

Here are the Wikipedia definitions of both terms.

Religion- a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to truths and values.

Spirituality- can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”

For me, the key difference is the word "cultural system." A religion provides a set of rituals and beliefs that everyone should/must ascribe to. And it's about worship, in most cases-- either individually or collectively.

Spirituality, which is often thrown in the same soup as religion, is different. I believe the term "inner path" is perfect-- we are attempting to become acutely aware of our own being as it relates to both concepts and powers that we cannot grasp (i.e. "God", "the Creator", a great "Creative Intelligence") as well as those around us-- our fellow humans. I do not believe that spirituality is about worship, which is really at the fundamental core of most religions.

Here's a broad generalization:

Religions say here are the rules, here is what you need to believe to be part of our community. Break the rules at your own peril. Sin will be punished (less so in Judaism, but you get the point).

Spirituality says, join me in discovery. Whether your spirit is in pain or not, there is joy and peace to be had if you are willing to take certain steps. These steps acknowledge the inherent imperfection of the human condition.

And the concept of "prayer" is not owned by religion anymore than "meditation" is owned by spirituality.

Yes, AA says you must find a power greater than yourself to solve your problem. And yes, the doorknob concept is a dangerous distortion of that idea, just like I believe the "Group of Drunks" idea should only be used temporarily if at all. We need power of a non-human nature, and the folks sitting around the table with me don't have it.

But that does not make it a religion.

LillieB

Frothy, While I have seen this sort of word twisting game before I do want to point out a flaw you may want to fix in your attempt to distort the truth.

You state: Religions say here are the rules, here is what you need to believe to be part of our community. Break the rules at your own peril. Sin will be punished (less so in Judaism, but you get the point).

Does aa not state that "god" grants a daily reprieve based on spiritual condition, based on the practice of the 12 steps in your daily life? According to aa doctrine if one does not practice the principles in all their affairs the risk for relapse is unavoidable, god will no longer provide the protection necessary to avoid getting drunk.

Personally if I were you I would not post that bit of information in your defense that aa is not religious. It is too closely related to the christian faith, you know just like you said, worship me or your burn in hell for eternity. Yikes...we need to get some nicer gods.

FrothyJay

Changed what words? Please be specific.

AA cannot deny its roots are in the Oxford Group, a fundamentalist Christian group of the day. That's where Dr. Bob and Bill started (and Ebby and Rowland before them). But they recognized that judgmental, autocratic doctrine was not going to work for alcoholics. In effect, they realized they needed to be working against the legacy of existing religions that they knew they were going to be encountering as they tried to work with alcoholics.

You are unintentionally demonstrating the problem that AA runs into with religion-- that people immediately ascribe any mention of prayer and spirit to religion. And that's why so many people don't get well-- they cannot get past it. Their experiences with and hatred of religion get in the way, and they are unable to open their minds to the possibility that they may have it all wrong. For me, this opening happened when I conceded to myself that I was powerless over alcohol. I needed to find power, and if they told me I could get it via mail order on the Internet, I would have looked into it.

But prayer does not make something religious.

I believe you have a pretty superficial understanding of what AA is, and what religion is. I've seen you demonstrate it before. So understand, here in a public forum where perceptions are critical, I will correct you. Read the definition of what a religion is that I wrote in my response to JBC and tell me how that describes AA.

More importantly, Supercrew, you barely conceal your hatred of AA in these posts. Simply putting "not that there's anything wrong with that" and "just my opinion" at the end are cowardly attempts to soften the derisive tone ("They just") of your posts. AA is far from perfect, I'll be the first to tell you that. But it deserves far more respect than you show it.

Pete55

Ok, the 4 and 5th step clears the bit.

Once that is clearer, then we can feel a sense of intuition that once was fazed by a chemical to the brain, called alcohol. The proof is, road carnage is no guessing game, it happens. So if we have no alcohol in our system, we become open minded, naturally.
Spirituality, is just that, an open mind to all other things when an obsession is removed.
What is am obsession? It is a thought process.
What was that thought process at one tme?
Alcohol ( for whatever reason)
What did alcohol do to some of us? It caused sufering.
So our thought process, or spirit-our mind responded, "Enough"!

From there, Bob and Bill thought up of an idea. To share the same thought process with other suffering alcoholics, who want to listen.
The idea multiplied. Soon there were 40 alcoholics with the same idea, and human ingenuity thought up another idea, write a book on what happened.
In that book are some guidlines from other ideas. Not all, just some, those that suit us, cos we are alcoholic, you cannot stop us from drinking, and you cannot stop us from not wanting to drink either, same as you cannot stop us from borrowing ideas to keep us from relapsing.
If that means using the word God, then it is far easier than the suffering after taking a drink.
We cannot help it if this was a "sober accident" waiting to happen, that when we do these ideas from the BB, we stop to suffer and peace is restored in our lives.
That is spirituality- a borrowed set of ideas, not all, but some.

Ok, spirituality ,at the bar.
Same set of ideas, except in reverse. That is to drink.
Ain't that a "spiritual concept" ?
Those that go to the bar every Friday night, and eventually suffer" Is that not a thought process to, to THINK "go-to-bar". Was not that idea passed on from another young drunk at one time.

We in AA have done all that, that is why we are in AA, it came AFTER the bar idea.
Both ideas, to drink or not to drink are a form of spirituality, an idea, a thought process.
They spend alot of adevertising money to try and get us to forget. But I cannot forget pain and suffering, or the mute button on TV!
When a beer ad comes on, and I have an idea! don't listen to it, make them spen more money, my mute button is free, it works every time! ha........ha.

Ok,
Spirituality at a divine level...... often gets mixed up with religeon, depending on ones own thought process. These people give me the shites, they are the one's who have twisted the interpretation.
Just Google any form of the word "spirit" and you will also find a "pay by Visa card" link somewhere, like a horoscope. They are the culprits.

gerryP

Hooped I agree wholeheartedly.

AA should not be treated as a dating pool, or social club. Might sound strange to some, but there is life outside the rooms.

FrothyJay

Yes, but not on the daily practice of the 12 steps. On the daily practice of steps 10-12. 1-9 were completed. I do not need to return to them in most cases.

No, it does not say this. God will not provide protection? Where does it say this? Yes, it says that if we fail to enlarge our spiritual lives we are destined to drink again. But it does not say that God will not protect us from drinking. That's a distortion.

Where does AA even come close to saying worship me or burn in hell? That has to be one of the most intellectually lazy connections I've come across.

LillieB

Intellectually lazy? Serious Frothy you don't want to go there with me. I would never be allowed to speak my mind on this site in order to properly engage you in a dialogue that would be on par with what I am use to.

gerryP

Frothy, "According to aa doctrine"...It may not be spelled out, but if you read between the lines, Lillie is correct.

gerryP

@Frothy

1. "If we fail to enlarge our spiritual lives, we are destined to drink again."
2. "It does not say that God will not protect us from not drinking."

Are you sure about that? if I fail to do something, x will happen.

FrothyJay

Read between the lines? Seriously? You can't make this sort of leap without some evidence, Gerry. Reading between the lines means you are putting your spin on it, bringing your own prejudices to bear.

Try this: read the black part of the page.

FrothyJay

Clearly I don't know what I'm up against.

FrothyJay

If you think these two statements mean the same thing, Gerry, I don't know what to say. "God" does not equal "spiritual lives."

AA says if we don't continue to do the work of expanding our spiritual health, we will go backwards, and ultimately drink.

BobGT

.

wicked

DrunkenBasement is a female.
I am a recovering female too.
I have had plenty of this uh.....contact with men in the program. Some older, but not all.
Know it alls that have the nerve to tell me what I am and am not based on a few questions.
At an AA meeting of all places. Where my reality and identification as an alcoholic should not be questioned or subject to interrogation.

I am 51 years old, should I start questioning the 30 year old male next to me, and decide if he qualifies or not?
I think not.

And then this thread degenerates into the religion/AA connection.
Read the opening post please. Take your semantic word games to somewhere other than Newcomers to Recovery.

ReadyAndAble

I'll second that.

Crazy how one man's unthinking comment generated so much over-analysis here. People say dumb stuff all the time. I know I do.

Alcoholic, spiritual, religious—who cares what label someone else throws on you? And why slap a label on someone else, or their program, or their attitude toward your program?

We're on the same team, folks. The only time it doesn't seem that way is when we start trying to define each other's experiences, instead of simply sharing our own.

LillieB

Frothy I have no doubt we would have quite an interesting conversation but somehow I think the banter would get too heated for this board. I do not believe in "higher powers", gods, unicorns or the tooth fairy. Your belief in a "power of a non-human nature" to solve your problems with drugs and alcohol seems..well...imbecilic. I also find it irresponsible to try to convince sick people that your belief in a "power of non-human nature" will help them too, but hey..that's just me. <shrug>

FrothyJay

Saying in the same post that we can't have this conversation but, by the way, believing in a higher power is imbecilic is the epitome of passive-aggressiveness.

You've basically called everyone who believes in God, or something greater than themselves, idiots. Do you think that's a responsible message on a board where people are trying to save their own lives?

Either have the conversation, Lillie, or don't. But don't tell me you need to spare me your wrath and then throw childish barbs over your shoulder. It's tiresome.