Alcoholic "status" questioned by an old-timer
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Jersey
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Originally Posted by Toronto68 
The problem with what you say Jay is that you can lead people to believe they must not be alcoholics then. I think it's sloppy to say things like that.
I wouldn't bet my life on spritiual awakenings actually being real things. If you say it happened: that's nice.
How does that feel, by the way? Like your experience doesn't count? That's how people who have no clue what "spritual awakening" means (or who are told they must not be the Real McCoy Alcohlic) feel.
I wouldn't bet my life on spritiual awakenings actually being real things. If you say it happened: that's nice.
How does that feel, by the way? Like your experience doesn't count? That's how people who have no clue what "spritual awakening" means (or who are told they must not be the Real McCoy Alcohlic) feel.
Again, if you have issues with the AA approach, try something different. No one's asked you to bet your life on anything.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
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I appreciate the Big Book's emphasis on "alcoholism" being essentially a "spiritual" problem and sobriety not being possible unless there is a "spiritual" awakening. It's wonderful that so many folks appear to have been benefitted from that. But this should not rule out other avenues of possible recovery, other approaches to the question of why some folks are inclined to drink compulsively. As I see it these folks should be welcomed into AA if they honestly are trying to stop drinking, just the way I am welcomed into many churches even though I do not subscribe to all the tenets of a particular faith. All that should be necessary is a troubled spirit and the hope to gain the wisdom to deal with it, relief from the sorrows which misfortune has brought. Doctrine should not preclude an open door.
W.
W.
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Originally Posted by wpainterw
I appreciate the Big Book's emphasis on "alcoholism" being essentially a "spiritual" problem and sobriety not being possible unless there is a "spiritual" awakening. It's wonderful that so many folks appear to have been benefitted from that. But this should not rule out other avenues of possible recovery, other approaches to the question of why some folks are inclined to drink compulsively. As I see it these folks should be welcomed into AA if they honestly are trying to stop drinking, just the way I am welcomed into many churches even though I do not subscribe to all the tenets of a particular faith. All that should be necessary is a troubled spirit and the hope to gain the wisdom to deal with it, relief from the sorrows which misfortune has brought. Doctrine should not preclude an open door.
W.
W.
AA is not "don't drink and go to meetings." That advice can kill the chronic alcoholic who is led to believe that's all that is required.
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 102
Anyone who advices an alcoholic not to drink is giving great advice, after all that is what keeps an alcoholic sober, not drinking. lol
While I agree not drinking needs to be followed up with some additional action, meetings if necessary, it certainly if followed, will not kill anyone.
While I agree not drinking needs to be followed up with some additional action, meetings if necessary, it certainly if followed, will not kill anyone.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 150
It's OK for newcomers to muddle the program- they don't know it how could they not? I believe in the steps but people can become overzealous with the Big Book talk. I have been in AA for 4 years and I've never been to a meeting that didn't talk about the steps. People get it, unless they don't want to. We don't have to push it down their throats, just share our experience and make sure WE stick to the program. I think that part of a spiritual awakening would include the humility to know that the program will stand for itself. I definitely take my sponsees through the steps as they were written, but I don't feel the need to shout it out at every meeting. And as it says in the appendix a spiritual experience doesn't have to happen all at once. Mine was definitely a little at a time.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by FrothyJay
Sloppy? What does that mean? People can and should come to their own conclusions about their own alcoholism. But what's worked for me is an understanding of what an alcoholic is and what's required to recover from it. That's the message I share.
Again, if you have issues with the AA approach, try something different. No one's asked you to bet your life on anything.
Again, if you have issues with the AA approach, try something different. No one's asked you to bet your life on anything.
The way FrothyJay puts it is far more rigorously honest than the usual spin of "take what you like and leave the rest" or "AA is spiritual, not religious, a doorknob can be your higher power and keep you sober" that is usually heard in the rooms.
Keep at it, Jay!
- JBC
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Location: New Jersey
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Originally Posted by LillieB
Anyone who advices an alcoholic not to drink is giving great advice, after all that is what keeps an alcoholic sober, not drinking. lol
While I agree not drinking needs to be followed up with some additional action, meetings if necessary, it certainly if followed, will not kill anyone.
While I agree not drinking needs to be followed up with some additional action, meetings if necessary, it certainly if followed, will not kill anyone.
But if the extent of the message we share is "don't drink and go to meetings," and "let the miracle happen" without concrete directions, it rarely does.
I lived and breathed the fellowship-based program for 11 years. And when the inevitable relapse happened, I went to places I'd never been, literally and figuratively. I was an untreated alcoholic hoping that abstinence alone would get me better. It did not.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by Stevie1
Somebody needs to write an essay on the myth of the "high-functioning alcoholic."
I thought I was one, for a very long time. My father was one. And other people I have known, who have not ended up drinking 24/7, did not lose homes, jobs, end up in jail, etc.
I've said it here before...the biggest harm is the slow erosion of your soul and your capabilities. The not acheiving, the multiple "small" public embarrasments, the shame, guilt, hiding, the comparing yourself to non-alcoholics and falling short, all of that catches up after a while. Not everyone has a spectacular slide into tabloid-worthy fail. Cumulatively the little stuff can end up hugely destructive.
Anyway DB - I don't have much time in AA but I'd definitely give little credence to someone like that - sounds like he hasn't learned much in all those years!
I thought I was one, for a very long time. My father was one. And other people I have known, who have not ended up drinking 24/7, did not lose homes, jobs, end up in jail, etc.
I've said it here before...the biggest harm is the slow erosion of your soul and your capabilities. The not acheiving, the multiple "small" public embarrasments, the shame, guilt, hiding, the comparing yourself to non-alcoholics and falling short, all of that catches up after a while. Not everyone has a spectacular slide into tabloid-worthy fail. Cumulatively the little stuff can end up hugely destructive.
Anyway DB - I don't have much time in AA but I'd definitely give little credence to someone like that - sounds like he hasn't learned much in all those years!
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Originally Posted by FrothyJay
AA is spiritual, not religious.
AA is distinctly and intensely religious. Anyone who reads the twelve steps, the "Big Book" and "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" can readily see that.
I trust I don't need to quote from those works.
- JBC
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They just changed some words to make it available to any belief. They wanted to make in inclusive to everyone. They don't care what you believe in, but you have to believe in something. Pray at the begining of the meeting, pray at the end, spirtual maladies, spirtual awakenings, Higher powers, but not religious?
Look up the definition of religion and it describes AA to a T. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but to say otherwise is not being honest. Just my opinion.
Look up the definition of religion and it describes AA to a T. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but to say otherwise is not being honest. Just my opinion.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
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It all depends how you intepret the word God...
Can't be assed to go into metaphysics and the definition of spirituality but would suggest some reading and investigation before repeating parrot fashion what we all were conditioned with in our younger days:-)
Interesting fact i heard the other day...there are over 260 different religions in effect today all stemming from the Bible...bet they all think their God is the real one and they are right too...
The fact still remains though that AA is not a religious program no matter how many people in and out of the rooms believe that it is...
Can't be assed to go into metaphysics and the definition of spirituality but would suggest some reading and investigation before repeating parrot fashion what we all were conditioned with in our younger days:-)
Interesting fact i heard the other day...there are over 260 different religions in effect today all stemming from the Bible...bet they all think their God is the real one and they are right too...
The fact still remains though that AA is not a religious program no matter how many people in and out of the rooms believe that it is...
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by kiki5711
Oh, my, my....give the old guy a brake. You're in a room full of alcoholics you can't be really expecting some kind of "proper" introduction from everyone that talks to you.
If you can fly like a feather from one snide remark from some old man, geez wheez louize! Maybe there's some kind of country club aa meeting where everyone is fake that's has more "appropriate/formal" introductions.
If you can fly like a feather from one snide remark from some old man, geez wheez louize! Maybe there's some kind of country club aa meeting where everyone is fake that's has more "appropriate/formal" introductions.
With respect, I respond. This is a very important topic and needs to be addressed. Do not just dismiss this as something small & trival. Please go back and read Drunken Basement's post in proper context. I highly doubt that Drunken Basement was being "oversensitive to an old timer." I mean seriously. Many true alcholics wrestle with this thought. "Am I really an alcoholic?" We have a disease that tells us that we do not have a disease. "Functional Alcoholics" compare themselves and their "higher bottom" to other fellow Alcholics who seem to be "lower on the dengenerate scale." This is a progressive disease. A "Functional" but real alcoholic can easily trick themselves into believing they can drink normal. This type of denial leads may lead into a relapse and eventually death because it is "cunning, baffling, and powerful." Words can destroy in a second and this disease is not only a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession and also, a disease of perception. So, old timers need not say these things. Its arrogant and really affects the mind of the newcomer or the person struggling with questioning if he is truly a "real alcholic." Alcoholics tend to obsess and this question can be torture to one not sure. Afraid to go back out and drink as a "normal" drinker and possibly die or sit in a room feeling like a confused hypocrite. I hope you understand now, Kiki5711.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by kiki5711
It's all how we perceive people. I probably would have just looked at him and said "yea, unfortunately I am an alkie" and I'd smile and sit down. For all we know he might be some old guy lonely and friendly. I could not for the life of me see how that question could be so "serious". For real...
@Kiki5711:
With respect, I respond. This is a very important topic and needs to be addressed. Do not just dismiss this as something small & trival. Please go back and read Drunken Basement's post in proper context. I highly doubt that Drunken Basement was being "oversensitive to an old timer." I mean seriously. Many true alcholics wrestle with this thought. "Am I really an alcoholic?" We have a disease that tells us that we do not have a disease. "Functional Alcoholics" compare themselves and their "higher bottom" to other fellow Alcholics who seem to be "lower on the dengenerate scale." This is a progressive disease. A "Functional" but real alcoholic can easily trick themselves into believing they can drink normal. This type of denial leads may lead into a relapse and eventually death because it is "cunning, baffling, and powerful." Words can destroy in a second and this disease is not only a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession and also, a disease of perception. So, old timers need not say these things. Its arrogant and really affects the mind of the newcomer or the person struggling with questioning if he is truly a "real alcholic." Alcoholics tend to obsess and this question can be torture to one not sure. Afraid to go back out and drink as a "normal" drinker and possibly die or sit in a room feeling like a confused hypocrite. I hope you understand now, Kiki5711.
Again.....
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by DrunkenBasement
Thanks, Anna.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what some of the others are saying here. I thought I made it clear that I don't question who or what I am as far as my relationship with alcohol is concerned. I am an alcoholic. I know that. No one can or will tell me otherwise. I really didn't have a question at all. I was concerned about the person who might be in a more fragile and impressionable state, unable to brush something like that off. It was something I experienced and I wanted to share it and see what others thought. Simple as that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what some of the others are saying here. I thought I made it clear that I don't question who or what I am as far as my relationship with alcohol is concerned. I am an alcoholic. I know that. No one can or will tell me otherwise. I really didn't have a question at all. I was concerned about the person who might be in a more fragile and impressionable state, unable to brush something like that off. It was something I experienced and I wanted to share it and see what others thought. Simple as that.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by Stevie1
I thought I got it.
Old dude was wrong.
Someone who was scared off by a dismissal of their problem and therefore continues drinking: definitely not well-educated on the issue, or not ready to quit, in either case will be back or won't - but if one old dude with a dismissive attitude isx enough to hurl someone back into active drinking, then that attempt at sobriety wasn't going to stick anyway.
IOW, someone fragile and impressionable enough to run back to the bottle because of what one person said to them at an AA meeting is fragile and impressionable, period, and is not ready to stop drinking. So, I wouldn't worry about it on other peoples' account.
Also: Needs more cowbell.
Old dude was wrong.
Someone who was scared off by a dismissal of their problem and therefore continues drinking: definitely not well-educated on the issue, or not ready to quit, in either case will be back or won't - but if one old dude with a dismissive attitude isx enough to hurl someone back into active drinking, then that attempt at sobriety wasn't going to stick anyway.
IOW, someone fragile and impressionable enough to run back to the bottle because of what one person said to them at an AA meeting is fragile and impressionable, period, and is not ready to stop drinking. So, I wouldn't worry about it on other peoples' account.
Also: Needs more cowbell.
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