stanleyhouse

I guess it's a good thing I don't tell everyone I'm an alcoholic. Instead, if people ask about my health or way of life I tell them I live my life through recovery.
SH

FrothyJay

I don't think I was clear enough. Apologies.

I'm not suggesting we decide who is an alcoholic and who is not. That's entirely up to the person. What I am saying is that we pose the questions, and the information, that helped us make the decision for us. We do not reach any conclusions-- that's entirely up to the person we're talking to. But we present the information for their consideration.

Not everyone who walks into AA is an alcoholic. Part of my job in carrying the message is to share my understanding of what the disease is and what my experience has been with it, to help them make a decision.

LexieCat

The problem, Jay, as I see it, is that if such a discussion leads the person to conclude that he or she is NOT an alcoholic, but rather, let's say, someone whose drinking is endangering his or her life, safety, family, job. And, let us assume, he or she is highly motivated to stop drinking for those reasons. Would you encourage such a person not to come to AA? Would you want them to conclude they don't belong there? Whatever your views of the BB definition of a "real" alcoholic, would you really want such a person to go out and do more drinking until they perhaps progress to the point where they meet the definition?

I dunno... I know there are some people who would take that hard line approach.

I think "go out and try some controlled drinking" is sometimes a good suggestion for people questioning whether they need to quit drinking. But once they are convinced that they need to quit, I don't know that "qualification" is necessary for everyone who comes into the rooms. If you desperately want to quit drinking, and come into AA, you should be welcome. Maybe, in reality, such a person COULD quit for good on his or her own. But maybe he or she will live a much more full and satisfying life by living by AA's principles.

wpainterw

I agree. Again, the only "qualification" for membership is the desire to stop drinking. One doesn't have to acknowledge that he or she is an "alcoholic." For example, suppose someone is diabetic or shouldn't drink because of all the medications he or she is taking, such as for blood pressure. Shouldn't that person be entitled to get support from an AA group if he or she wishes to attend meetings? Why not? What's the harm in doing that?
Finally, may I suggest that it's one thing to respond to a person's inquiry, "Do you think that I'm an alcoholic" and quite another to ask someone "Do you think you're really an alcoholic?" As to the former, perhaps the best response is "There are some checklists to help you determine that if you feel you need to do so. Meanwhile, if you are interested in stopping drinking, welcome to the group."

W.

FrothyJay

Anyone can really come to AA. And stay. We don't purge our ranks of the uncertain. But I have a responsibility to present what I understand about alcoholism from the Big Book (the textbook of AA), and the book takes great pains to explain what an alcoholic is, and what an alcoholic is not-- anyone who can stop drinking permanently on a non-spiritual basis.

Onewithwings

I kept going back out over the past year, partly because I questioned whether I was REALLY an alcoholic/addict, like they describe in the literature. Could I REALLY not control my drinking/using?

I was talking to an AA oldtimer the other day about my tendency to relapse, and he said "Listen, you MORE than qualify!" and I thought to myself-- why did I need to hear it from someone else? I KNOW what I am these days, and I don't need anyone else to validate it. I lost quite a bit-- physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I still had my family and a roof over my head, but that doesn't mean I don't qualify.

My bottom is wherever I choose to stop digging.

JohnBarleycorn

Thank you for stating what others try to gloss over.

However, technically speaking, alcoholism means alcohol dependence.

Alcohol dependence, like any other chemical dependence, exists when the body is physiologically dependent on a chemical, in this case, alcohol, as characterized by increasing tolerance to alcohol, withdrawal symptoms after cessation of alcohol use, and craving for alcohol when not consuming it.

Alcohol dependence existed for many thousands of years prior to AA or the Big Book.

That said, I would never say that I was "an alcoholic" - ever - under any circumstances - to anyone - in AA or out.

- JBC

Onewithwings

I was never physically addicted to alcohol, I was a binge drinker. I didn't drink every day, but when I did drink, I drank til I could not physically drink anymore, or the alcohol was gone. I tried quitting drugs/alcohol many times and could never do it on my own.

Everyone has their own definition of Alcoholism, and only they can determine whether they are alcoholic or not, as described by the BB, media, medical community, whichever you believe fits your definition of alcoholism. I don't have to be an alcoholic by YOUR standards, I have to be one by MY standards. I choose to use the definition in the BB. I fit that description.

FrothyJay

I've seen a different definition, I believe from the AMA but can't find it, that says alcoholism is a chronic relapsing condition.

And I believe this is what the AA program addresses (not to be confused whith what you hear in the rooms of AA) -- not simply the physical compulsion and mental obsession, but the inability to not drink even when sober.

While alcoholism has existed since "man first started crushing grapes," the idea that it is a spiritual problem that requires a spiritual solution only dates to the founding of AA.

yeahgr8

I understand that the term alcoholic can be used to describe someone that suffers from alcohol dependence or alcohol misuse...the quantity or frequency is quite irrelevant, it is the behaviour that identifies the alcoholic...

I have met many people in AA that simply did not drink in the frequency or volume to become substance dependent yet they still exhibited all the signs of alcoholism and, as such, have sought treatment for it and been successful in their quest for sobriety...

Toronto68

I'm coming into this late and haven't caught up with any updates to the original post as of yet. My reaction to that original post is that I think it is good (healthy) to have an offended reaction to questions like that, because it is part of our progress. When we step back from the situation though (perhaps on a different day), we can also observe how sensitive we are during our adjustment. I have had extremely negative reactions to questions/conjecture like this example sometimes. Other times I have been able to see myself as owning my progress and healing and - not "immune" - but at a safe distance from what seems like an offensive remark. In other words, everybody can't be in my head, I can't be in theirs; we can only share what works and keep going.

gerryP

JBC I agree with each line you wrote. And I too never and would never, tell anyone that I am an alcoholic. No ones business, it's private and has no bearing on anything I do. Throwing it around like a badge of honour can be recklessly honest and unless someone has a gun to your head, why mention it?

kiki5711

I think this thread has gone way off course since it was just about some little old man asking a (from what I feel) pretty simple question.

In my opinion it was harmless and not intimidating or threatful question.

If you don't like someone at the meetings, just sit somewhere else. If you don't like the overall feeling of the AA place you meet, fine another one.

Liberty47

Much easier said then done, especially taking into consideration the fragile and vulnerable state of most newcomers. "The newcomer is the most important person at any meeting" You can't judge someone for getting offended until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

yeahgr8

I was standing with a 27 year old guy and a 50 year old woman outside an AA meeting...

The woman said to the guy "so how old are you?"...he replied "27"...she said "aren't you lucky that you got into AA with a high bottom, i mean it's not like you had time to become a real alcoholic"...

I know the guy really well, he had 2 nervous breakdowns, was in a mental hospital, went through all sorts of crap that i never went through...

All i could do was grab him before the meeting and tell him not to listen to the crazy woman...words really can do a lot of damage:-)

michelle01

Awareness is slowly changing about alcoholism, this guy probably has some by now outdated ideas. I didn't suffer too many outward consequences from being an alcoholic, don't fit the popular, traditional stereotype, but when I made it into recovery I was a mental, emotional and spiritual mess.

I don't believe that everyone with a drinking problem is an alcoholic, it may be a life phase, and they may be able to quit under their own will power. I have not been able to.

I attended a meeting group early in sobriety with some very severe stories, it was inner city, many of these guys had done serious jail time and lived on the streets. They were inspirational stories, many of them, but I found myself making a different meeting out in the suburbs my more regular meeting.

spryte

I've been inspired by what many people in AA have said and I've been really offended by what a small number of people have said, but I don't get hung up on it.

Some people just have horrible social skills and they don't know how to relate and empathize. Recovered or not; some people are just offensive. Some of them mean to offend and some of them have no idea how offensive they are being.

People often respond by saying, "I'll pray for them." I don't subscribe to that response. I don't know why, but it bugs me when people say that. It's as if someone's jerk-ness has elevated the listener's status because the listener has the goodness to withstand the offensiveness. I don't think it takes a really good person to deal with an offensive person.

Especially if the person is just a jerk through and through and they don't even know they are a jerk and are not interested in knowing, so, who cares what they say or do?!

I just ignore them. Whatever.

But when there is someone who tends to judge and offend people approaching newcomers, and we all know who these people are in every group, the other members should make it a point to also approach the newcomer not to say, ignore that other guy, but to say some different, positive encouraging things.

stanleyhouse

I find it interesting that some believe you are not an alcoholic if you can quit without a spiritual awakening. And others suggest alcoholism is related to alcohol dependency. All I know is that I would avoid anybody who was trying to tell me what I am. If someone walks into AA and wants to work the steps without thinking they are an alcoholic they should be able to do it without judgement. As should people be encouraged to begin recovery even if they don't know what withdrawal feels like.
SH

FrothyJay

It's what the AA Big Book says. So it follows that the AA program says you cannot quit without a spiritual awakening.

I'm just being clear on what AA says. I'm sure there are other schools of thought.

Toronto68

The problem with what you say Jay is that you can lead people to believe they must not be alcoholics then. I think it's sloppy to say things like that.

I wouldn't bet my life on spritiual awakenings actually being real things. If you say it happened: that's nice.

How does that feel, by the way? Like your experience doesn't count? That's how people who have no clue what "spritual awakening" means (or who are told they must not be the Real McCoy Alcohlic) feel.