amy55

Joel,

I'm just curious. If she contacted you or you contacted her, what do you think you would talk about?

From everything that you are hearing, she really has no intention on stopping drinking, and she hasn't been asking about you.

If she contacts you, most likely it will be to use you so she can continue on doing what she is doing, and having a nice comfortable place to do it in, till she finds another guy.

I know when I was going through what I was going through, I always had the "what ifs", and I would run the conversation through my head, and nothing was ever resolved. That stopped me from contacting him, because I already played the tape, and knew how it would end. It always ended the same.

((((((((hugs))))))))
amy

FeelingGreat

Possibly the only chance she has is if you and others don't take her in. Sorry.

Hawkeye13

I think it has everything to do with how we manage ourselves
and deal with others in our lives. Your frame isn't big enough
if you think this is just about this particular situation.

It's how we are trained to respond, and how we solve problems,
fix our lives, and build the life we desire.
It's what I perceive you trying to do in this situation when logic
will not serve, and there is no "understanding" when dealing with addicts.
You simply will not be able to "save" her and yourself at the same time in the end.

Feeling Great is right--the only chance she most likely has to survive this is if
people let her face her own consequences and quit rescuing her.
If I could go back in time like Michael J. Foxx, as someone mentioned earlier,
I would have let my mother face her consequences while she still could have rebuilt
her life. Before she destroyed everything that she might have used to do so.
If I have a regret about the situation, it isn't my own pain anymore,
but in not giving her that choice by my interference.
I "knew" better and didn't listen when people shared their experience with me.
What I knew was my emotional response, which I then processed as thought / rationalization.

People keep trying to tell you that's what they are seeing in
your threads, and you don't seem to really hear it yet.
That's fine--we all get there when we do, and our paths are unique.

By the way, I wasn't engaging in a "pissing contest" but trying to
share with you some deeply personal experience of how my own
academic training impacted my way of dealing with the addict
in my life and how it nearly destroyed me.

GoodguyJoel

Sorry all, long night...fell asleep while responding to the posts, literally.

I’ll just respond to Sylvie quickly and then today try to address some of the other posts.

Sylvie, I’m not trying to ignore anything, I was worried if we stray too far that the moderators may close this stream like they did the other one. It is not that I don’t want to speak to that topic, and I suppose we can discuss it if you would all like to, it was just for the reason I just mentioned.

hopeful4

Let's all remember to stay on topic and that we are here to support Joel. Thanks!

biminiblue

So...just let me see if I've got this...you want to somehow magically affect the outcome of your AEx by saying the exact right thing to her to make her see how she hurt you and tell her what she needs to do, so eventually she'll get better and can be your trophy wife?

You want to continue to talk with the Step-father because - poor guy - he needs someone to talk to, and you have much more knowledge about this.

You want to control what people post on an online forum.

You want to steer the conversation in a particular way so the Moderators don't close it.





What happened in the last thread is that everyone got triggered, they started trying to control you, they lost track of their own stories and started telling you what to do, and on it went until Mike closed it.

Do you see YOUR pattern here?

I had to let go of being God. I have NO power.

Instead of that being harmful to me, it was the most freeing thing ever.

BAW81

GGJ - I can tell that you are still very much heartbroken and for that, I am sorry, and honestly the only thing that helps with that is time and YOUR CHOICE to move on. Dwelling, obsessing, fantasizing, and trying to "understand" the other person will not help you.

Based on your threads and posts, my impression is that you're waiting for someone to tell you what to do so that she will come back to you and everything will go back to the way it was.....

Most of us have answered your initial question which was "what should I do if she contacts me," but it appears to me that you don't like our responses because it just keeps looping.

If you're waiting for our permission to reach out to her, you most likely will not get it based on our own experiences. At the end of the day, it's your life and your choice.

So like Sylvie has asked you....What do you want to do? I encourage you to sit with yourself and YOUR situation. So much energy is spent speculating on her....

FireSprite

Here's the recurring theme Joel:

You have to stop looking at her situation & start looking at your own if you have any realistic expectation of starting to make sense of all this. That's the collective voice of thousands of experiences speaking - not just a random opinion.

When you're ready to stop band-aiding your broken arm, we're ALL here for you. And just like she has the right to drink herself to death, you have every single right to drive yourself mad spinning in circles if that is your desire.... just don't expect us to validate that for you. So many of us have done that, that it becomes instinct to try to stop someone else from following the same senseless path. Maybe you NEED to walk this path for a while longer for whatever reasons....... but don't be afraid to give yourself permission to pause right here & truly examine if this path is serving you in ANY way any longer.

GoodguyJoel

All,

Thank you for hearing me out. Today I just feel like a pile of mush floating through the day. I just finished meeting with my counselor, and he and I discussed many of the things mentioned on here, aside from the most recent events pertaining to my ex.

I will just say this so that my next comments may make more sense. She was taken to the hospital in an ambulance the other night, and was released the same night. Her mother would not let her come back home, and gave her her things and left. It is believed that she stayed in a hotel that night, and the following day was asking all of her friends for a place to stay. Her friends refused her, and told her to contact them when she is serious about getting sober. During all this, I was never contacted by her.

Now, what I discussed today with my counselor is that I do feel miserable. I do feel discarded, and forgotten. We both agreed with what I and others have observed, which is the person we came to know and love, currently isn't there, and may never be again (as I mentioned in a previous post). My counselor believes she has much deeper issues, and her current definition of love is more about what she can get from others. I told him she used to show empathy, and care, kindness, and love...but as time went on with the addiction, this seemed to slowly slip away from her. He said one thing that hit me as hard as all of your comments have hit me...

She has made no effort to reach out to you, even in desperation. I cried, and do see that clearly now. He went on to tell me that it isn't that she is unable to, or wont think of me in the future, it is that she is all about her right now, and that I am likely not in the current picture. How I want to handle this is up to me, but he suggested, just like all of you that I have to begin to let her go. That doesn't mean I completely close the door forever, it just means that it is not doing myself a service by constantly thinking of all the good things that we were, that now only hurt me. To make the conscious choice to say, I cannot think about that now, and keep moving. Because, she has chosen, at least for now, to exempt me from her life. He re-emphasized that doesn't mean I may not be in the future, but currently, this is where we are. That I am "ghosted."

Ironically, 20 minutes before this meeting, her mother called me, and I called her back. She accidentally dialed me, but then said that she wanted to tell me what was going on...she quickly spewed off the details which I already knew, and eventually we were interrupted by the mother's mother calling. I told her to take it of course and that I will speak with her later tonight.

The kicker is that it is obvious she is fearing for her life. She thinks she (the ex) is staying with an ex boyfriends from two previous relationships ago. The mom and father hated this guy, but mom said she thinks this is where she is, because she probably has no one else to trust. Then the big one...she got cut off right after saying this by the other phone call, but the mom said "I don't know if there is any hope for your relationship with her."

This is the one detail that I do need answers about. This is why I will call her later. I guess I need to know why she said that. Was it because she knows due to conversations with her daughter that I am hated, dreaded, and completely out of the picture? Or is it because as we have all described, this isn't the same person, and with her addiction, there is no space for that relationship...at least like this? Or is it because her infatuation with this other guy? Or is it because she can't face me knowing I called how this would all end up, or even the shame of what she has done? Or simply what is it?

I think I personally need this answer. I know we talk here of cutting all contact, but I personally need to know. If she hates my guts and never wants to see me again (for reasons I will never understand), then I think that will be the easiest route for me to move on. If it is because she is in a bad place mentally, physically, and in every other aspect of life...then I will have to just step away, and realize I cannot do anything, until she would reach out sober.

The counselor continued to emphasize to me that I am likely not in the picture now because she simply can't. She is deep in the wrung of addiction, and there is no mental space for me in there. I currently offer no solution, which is what she is probably seeking, and that the addiction likely drives this. This is an aspect of this all that I have a truly hard time with. Being so forgotten, or meaningless, or disposable. I know there are just plain bad people out there who can do this to others, but this isn't the person we all knew. Her mother even told me that she never just moved on from previous relationships, so she can't understand why she would do this to me, the one her mom said loved me more than any other. There are so many reasons why I can't grasp that, and how callous it all seems. But one thing you all keep mentioning is that with addiction...you can't make sense of something that makes no sense. Or to rely on their words/actions/behaviors when in this state. I struggle deeply with this everyone and I know to all of you it seems childish, or egotistic, or outright stupid...but this is my struggle. To be just plain discarded, especially by someone who for years said she wanted my children, and my love, and to grow old together.

Even my counselor told me that me feeling guilt, or the bargaining or saying if I just would have/could do something different...It wasn't me. It wasn't me that caused her to drink, or lose jobs, or eventually make her run from me. I am trying to accept this point, because I do feel huge guilt, and shame, and as though I wasn't good enough. It hurts me to my core. And I don't believe my counselor is telling me this just to make me feel better, I do, through the deep woods, see that I couldn't have stopped her. She was hell bent on trying to keep this addiction going. So much, that even her most loving person was expendable. So much, that she uses her family instead of loving them. So much, that she would abandon the puppy she chose. Or the dances we shared, or the things we accomplished, or the dreams we built for our future. She couldn't stop herself. I guess at this point...I don't need your validation. But is addiction really capable of all of this and more?

I do want you all to know I am not mad, or neglecting your posts...I just can't deal with it all at light speed when I am, like I said, a big mush brain right now. I hope you can understand.

SparkleKitty

Yes. Addiction is capable of all of that and more.

hopeful4

Hey Sylvie......

To be clear to everyone, I don't think Joel notified any mods, I said that b/c I can see that some people get triggered easily because Joel may not be wrapping his mind around all of this yet. The mods did not say anything to me, I said it myself. And it was not really directed to any certain person at all. I think you are doing an excellent job Sylvie.

I think it's important to support Joel by remembering that just a very short time ago he thought he was going to marry this woman and it turned sour. We cannot expect him to wrap his mind around what it took some of us (or myself at least) YEARS to comprehend.

In my opinion, keeping the sharing to what has helped you in your own recovery is what is helpful to others. I have to remind myself of this as well, on a regular basis!

I think all of you fine folks here at SR are wonderful!

FireSprite

So, so, SO much more.

Meet ShootingStar1:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rd-health.html (The Crucible: A Love Story and A Journey Toward Health)

BoxinRotz's husband nearly died, this thread was continued multiple times:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-part-1-a.html (My husband was in a motorcycle accident - Part 1)

......and then he started drinking again a couple years later anyway:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...k-because.html (I came back because...)

jarp's story always reminds me how fast things really can spiral out of control
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...e-up-call.html (A horrible night and a harsh wake up call)

ScubaDad struggled when his wife got a DUI while their children were IN the car:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...o-son-car.html (Wife got a DUI with my 7yo son in the car)

hopeful4

Big hugs Joel. You have a lot of hurt and a lot of processing to do, we all completely understand that and support you! I think your counselor is correct, that you did not CAUSE this, you cannot CONTROL it, and you cannot CURE it. The three big C's. Such a short sentence but one so hard to wrap the mind around.

Ariesagain

FWIW and I hesitate to post this because the last thing I want to do is keep false hopes alive...the fact that she has cut you out of her life may mean in part that she did love you more than the others. She’s kept them strung along to use them, sort of a Roladex of enablers.

On some rapidly disappearing level, she may get that all she can offer you is pain and she’s trying to let you get on with a better life.

Or it’s just that she hasn’t gotten entirely through her enabler Roladex so your name hasn’t come up yet and you’re her ultimate backup.

Maybe both.

As her addiction worsens and she burns more bridges, she may circle around back to you.You will need to be ready for that and I am very glad your counselor seems so helpful.

I know how terribly hard it is to face a situation that you so desperately to fix...and can’t. It takes a long, long time to come to terms with that.

Wishing you strength and clarity.

tomsteve

LETTING GO TAKES LOVE
To let go does not mean to stop caring,
it means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off,
it's the realization I can't control another.
To let go is not to enable,
but allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means
the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try to change or blame another,
it's to make the most of myself.
To let go is not to care for,
but to care about.
To let go is not to fix,
but to be supportive.
To let go is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to affect their destinies.
To let go is not to be protective,
it's to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny,
but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold or argue,
but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,
but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
To let go is not to criticize or regulate anybody,
but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future

tomsteve

But is addiction really capable of all of this and more?

from the old practicing alcoholic side of me, yes, and much more- more that doesnt need to be known by those that love,or loved, me.

AnvilheadII

But is addiction really capable of all of this and more?

oh hell yes, you got off lightly. surely you've seen the pics of parents od'ing in the front seat with a needle sticking out of the arm while their toddler cries from the car seat in the back? people sell their bodies to get one rock, one hit. then go do it again. people rob and steal and lie. break laws. hurt others. sometimes kill them.

all the addict has to do is accept that there IS a solution and that they will have to make some HUGE life changes and then find help and commit to a program of lifelong recovery. as the Big Book says, RARELY has anyone failed.....addiction can be brought to a halt, but not without the participation OF the addict. it's not JUST the drugs, it's the mindset. perhaps it's more about the mind.......

let nothing surprise you. i strongly urge you to quit listening....to quit getting the accidental play by plays. the updates. the then this happeneds. BECAUSE IT CHANGES NOTHING FOR HER, only further messes YOU up.

CentralOhioDad

Thank you! I'm printing this out and putting it on my wall. I needed this.


COD

GoodguyJoel

Thank you for the support everyone. It is just still all so fresh, and so cutting, even if it has been a month, this has turned my world upside down.

Let me present another predicament I am now dealing with.

I feel guilt for how I handled the last few months of her being so drunk. I was never physically abusive, so lets get that out of the way right away. Instead, I am looking back and said some very harsh things.

I did say things like:

"you are a f****** drunk!"
"you are an alcoholic"
"you can't even take care of yourself"
"I don't want to talk to you because you are drunk"
"I am leaving this room because I cannot deal with you when you are not sober"
"you are slurring your words (and replicated the voice)"
"look at yourself, are you proud?"
"G*D Dam__it, you said you wouldn't do this again!"
"I can smell the alcohol on your breath"
"You act like a piece of trash when you are like this (drunk)"
"I can't see you walk down the isle of our wedding drunk like this"
"I wont be able to marry you like this"

I am spilling this all here because I have to be honest. I know some of these things are incredibly cruel. I know in Al-Anon, we talk about how their addiction makes us unreasonable, well I can most certainly agree. I never acted this way towards her until it was unbearable. I feel like this wasn't me. I feel so terrible for treating her like this, and I think this has a role to play here. I was kind and caring for so long with the detoxes and trying to support her, but eventually I was stressed out, with my own work, taking care of the dog, and doing everything at home, that her being that way just would put me over the top. I am not making excuses, I am admitting a flaw of mine. I couldn't help it, I was so upset to see her this way, to choose the alcohol over me.

I spoke to her mother before, she called me at lunch. We talked. She is stressed out too. She told me a few things...one is she (the ex) is fond of the other guy. And two, I asked her about the comment of I don't know if your relationship will survive. She told me that it is for the reason that I mentioned before...it is a different person we are dealing with. I asked if I ever came up in conversation, and if and why she is mad at me. She said she wasn't happy with the way you handled her drinking at the end. I don't get this...I see that I said nasty things some times, but I never did anything to harm her physically. I could understand if these were emotionally painful, but she never even talked to me about it. She never told me to stop. It wasn't every day all day me saying or doing things mentioned above. I would ask her to try to find the strength to not drink today...to know she is of value to the world, and to get back up and start her life again. I just feel bad because sometimes, I wouldn't want to be around her when drunk, and I feel like I pushed her away

I didn't know how to handle it. I was a damn fool. The only thing I read and learned was to not engage when they try to argue or say mean things. "I am sorry you feel that way, but that simply isn't true" Etc.

Did I do terribly wrong here? Did anyone treat their A's like this? Or tomsteve, were you ever treated crummy by the ones you love, likely because it was just as hard for them? I wish I could apologize, if this is a huge issue, it is unfair that we couldn't even have a sober conversation about it. I would have happily addressed it, and curtailed any behavior that wasn't helping. But in the end, did I say that terrible of things? Or do terrible things? Am I really a bad guy, and I just don't see it? I can see that some of these things were cruel, or at a minimum, I was trying to have an impact on her to understand the predicament I was in. But maybe I am just plain terrible...Maybe I'm not the good guy here...Did I really act badly?

FireSprite

Oh honey - this isn't even in the BALLPARK of some of the awful things I've said to my husband.

And yes - I have to own my reactions, whether they seemed justified at the time or not... recovery teaches us that we are always in control of Ourselves even while those around us spin out in their dysfunction. But I couldn't DO better until I KNEW better, just like you are doing right now.

Regardless of any mistakes I've made in my approach, I'm not responsible for his choices. Just like I have always had control over MY actions, so does he. Remember those 3 C's Joel - they are always true in this process - we didn't cause, can't control or cure it.

You also have to learn to "forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know before you learned it ".... Maya Angelou