searching4shay

She's not alone. She has her mother who is ready with a treatment center waiting when she makes the decision that is what she wants. Ultimately though, no matter how much you want it for her, you will not change her mind. Even if you were somehow able to convince her to go, nothing will change until she wants it. She needs to figure that out for herself. You need to let her figure that out for herself.

Just keep working on you. I can see the changes you are making in the wording of your posts. For what it's worth, I don't think your relationship was fake. I think it was very real. I just don't think the person you began that relationship with exists anymore, and even if she comes back, she will be drastically changed.

hopeful4

I agree with FireSprite.

You keep saying the same thing, just spinning it in different ways. I am not trying to be hurtful, it is just the truth. You are not only hindering your own progress, but you are also not doing the mother any favors. She should be reaching out to Alanon or a therapist for her support, not you. It's not healthy. The only way the addict is going to invest in recovery is if she does it herself.

It's healthy to keep venting and talking this out for you, so I encourage you to continue to do so.

trailmix

I guess I have a little different comment to make. There is only one way to find out.

I respect what everyone has advised you to do, or rather suggested based on their own experiences, they are not wrong, for them.

Maybe you need to go and see her so you can figure this out.

I was in a relationship once, for just over a year. Honestly, in hindsight the man wasn't all bad but enough bad! A narcissist, or huge narcissistic tendencies anyway.

We broke up, he wandered back to his home town. I said you know what, you need to come back here, so he did. It was actually a good thing. With that time in-between and then seeing him (he stayed for about 3 months) I got a front row view of what a fake and messed up person he really is.

So that's my take on it. I can see you aren't going to just let this go, so why are you waiting? You have a, somewhat, different perspective now, maybe you should go and see her and talk to her.

FireSprite

We're ok to agree to disagree around here but I'm still surprised anyone suggesting forcing contact.... even though she left him & has shown NO desire to contact him - even despite his own attempts to engage her via puppy pics, etc?

Plus she's actively drinking & in full blown denial about the severity of her addiction despite multiple detox/rehab attempts & he's incredibly vulnerable. IMO - he's the ONLY one who stands to lose anything by forcing contact like that - it's bound to backfire... but if he NEEDS that to get to his next level of understanding, I guess I see..... still feels like reaching out to see if the fire is "still" hot & "still" burns. Of course it does - nothing has changed & now you have more wounds to dress.

But - yes, I agree, we all have to find our own surrender point in this process.

trailmix

My understanding is that puppygate never actually happened, he didn't send the photos so hasn't attempted to contact her - or seen her since she came to pick up her stuff.

I agree with what you have said. In fact I think the advice given in this and the other thread is really sound.

HardLessons

Hi Joel

I've read all your threads & all the posts. I honestly believe there is more going on here than what meets the eye.

You made an assumption she was sober at this inpatient rehab. Obviously there was a lot going on there & possibly she wasn't sober. Its also unclear from your posts if she completed that program.

She ran off with the well to do drug addict directly from her (their) stay at rehab & was immediately drinking. As I read it I thought she was probably using alcohol & other drugs. From your words there was a very fast & ugly downward spiral.

I thought you might benefit from reading your own words below. I simply cut & pasted them. Please consider them carefully as you make decisions concerning the future of your life. She told you she is not in love with you. Her actions clearly reinforced those words.

"then last year we got engaged in November (2016). These were some seriously happy times for both of us, and we started making plans for the marriage, kids, homes, and future locations to live and buy homes. We had it all figured out. There was one issue...she became an alcoholic about 1 1/2 years before this, and according to her long time friends, the issue showed itself long ago."



"She decided to go to a $40,000 inpatient rehab program, which her mom coughed up the money for. I am just finishing my doctorate by the end of this year, and could not afford that, but her mom happily did it if it gave her a chance. She went, things were fine between us for a bit, I visited and we kissed, hugged, and said we loved one another. Then communication slowed, and I just thought she was focusing on herself in there. Then she wanted to set up a family therapy session with a therapist between us. So, the day I am to go to this, I come home early to take care of the dog and get cleaned up...she is there with a friend packing up all her things. I got no answers and was heart broken and scared. She said we will talk at the meeting. I go there, and she tells me that she always focused on the bad stuff with her mother that caused issues in her life, then she thought about her other relationships...which was with me...she said that if we got married, we would have kids, and never get divorced, and could possibly be miserable. That she wasn't in love with me anymore, and gave me the ring back and that we couldn't be together. She said that things weren't as good for the past two years...but this is extremely questionable because of what I will talk about later...She walks out for a break, and I asked the therapist what was going on, and he said she has a very complex thought process, and it is extremely hard to follow her reasoning. He also said he has expressed his concerns to her and me that she is making decisions too quickly and particularly in rehab to not make any major life changes for at minimum a year. I asked her if there was someone else involved, and she said no...

This is where it turns for the way worse...

Leaves me broken hearted looking for answers, and she got out the following weekend and said she was leaving. I pleaded and said our relationship was beautiful and our future is just ahead of us...that I love her, and stood by her through all of this. She says she needs a few last things from my house, and came on a Monday. She came with her sister and a guy...that I had seen at the rehab place. My immediate thought...she is cheating. I asked the guy if they are in a relationship, he said no, I asked if he planned to, he said no. Then she grabbed a few things, I asked for one last hug, and then showed her the ring as she drove off with this guy. Turns out, she left the rehab with someone from there in rehab romance. She left with him to move to his state and move in with him immediately. She later told me that she was with him and that's that. They are together now for a month and a half, and I have cut all contact with her...she calls and texts here and there, and I do not answer. Turns out this guy was in rehab for drugs...but is a wealthy son of a business owner. She leaves all her family and friends behind, and tells us all nothing. Leaves me with our two year old pup, and doesn't care, although she asked me if she could have him."

"Again this is where it gets worse. Turns out she was drinking day one out of rehab with this guy. She has been drinking since. Numerous friends, family, and myself have heard her drunk on the phone. But the proof was when she admitted it to one of her best friends. "

Joel I want you to know from my heart I am very sorry for your situation & I wish you all the best.

FireSprite

I had to go back to make sure myself,

From the closed thread, 10/31/17:

HardLessons

Joel I just want to make one last point based on your post:

"Finally this got so bad, her mother and I got her to enroll in a long duration stay place with therapy. A wonderful place and we both had high hopes. She has now been there almost a month when this happened:"

In this instance you & her mother took an active role in trying to help her get sober & hopefully find recovery. This was you actively trying to help her. You got her to enroll.

Please ask yourself - how those direct actions , on your part, worked out? From my perspective - It didn't work out too well for you or her. Also what outcome should be expected from any future direct actions you take to help her? Outcomes for you & her.

FYI - all my direct actions ( a sickening mind blowing amount) didn't work out for me too well either. I'm sad to say I didn't do her any good either.

Thanks

LLLisa

I said something similar a couple of days ago.

GGJ you appear to be going round and round. Perhaps if you do see her or phone her you will get yourself closer to your own realization that this "thing" you have going with her is futile and will destroy you.

Many, many members have shared their ES&H. They have told their own stories about what they did and how it didn't work. How nothing we said or did made any difference. Perhaps GGJ experiencing this for himself is what he needs to do?

I am one of those people who, when I see a sign saying "WET PAINT DON'T TOUCH!", desperately wants, sometimes NEEDS, to touch the paint just to make sure it's wet. I've ruined a couple of painstaking paint jobs due to this ridiculous compulsion.

GGJ you are an adult. If you need to see for yourself then go and see for yourself.

GoodguyJoel

Hardlessons,

In my frantic early days of writing all this, and trying to get it out there, I think some of my words came across wrong, which is my mistake. The reality is that I put up a boundary and said you cannot come home again, unless you truly want to change, and seek help. It was from this statement that SHE began looking for rehab locations. She found the one she went to, and she and her mother did the signing up. I guess I meant to say that her mother and I worked together to help her get to that rehab location, seeings as how I drove her, and her mother followed.

Your previous comment about her not being sober there in treatment is something I have considered as well. I just find it hard to believe considering how strict this place was (yet prisoners can get guns and drugs in prison right?). So, I do not know. But I will say that this place did pump her full of new drugs, prescription of course. I often think this can be damaging too. Stabilizers, and anti-depressants...I have nothing against them, but it seems like these types of places try to emphasize their role in getting better. I also question the effect that has on an already damaged mind due to substance abuse, and it is well known that SSRI's can have the opposite effect, add that with some other mood stabilizer or "upper" and you have a real emotional mixed bag, and quite frankly one that can leave you feeling on a high horse...which is exactly how she came out of there. Her mother called it arrogance, and many others did too. It was misconstrued as confidence in her new sobriety, but it was clear she was far from that. I always had an itching feeling that something was different, and when she started on the SSRI's a few months back, she did slowly change a bit...especially when using alcohol and on the prescription (an obvious no no). Now she is back to the same place...using and using, both that is. I know prescriptions can be a godsend, but what I observed in some of the detoxes was that it was used to keep the cattle at bay, all within "legal limits." In fact, some of the staff seemed pretty uncaring, and just was used to seeing people come and people go, and then come back...etc.

I do know some of my actions did play a positive role, when she would have a few weeks of sobriety, we would do yoga, participate in finding good strong uplifting quotes to put on our idea board, and positive affirmations. Until she took a drink again, I know my attitude was uplifting for her. It's just once she took one sip...it was game over again. This has now been this way since rehab, with no break for sobriety.

I am wrapping my head around the idea of surrender more and more. But with that notion comes the idea that you have no say in anything. I know the serenity prayer well, but no where in there does it say that you shouldn't try, or help when/where you can. I think sometimes it feels like people think those suffering from addiction are gone, they are un-help-able. While this may be true in some cases, it isn't in all, and it really comes down to the individual. I think the approach we are trying to take, which is to make her take responsibility for her actions would work if she was forced to be sober...but she isn't. The mom and I discussed that we just have to let this play out for a bit and see what happens...and I agree. Meanwhile, taking back our lives, which I have been doing, and am seeing some progress (as you all have mentioned as well, thanks!).

I am not trying to fix her, I have done nothing besides send a pup photo. And she clearly wasn't sober at that time. I don't know how sober she has even got to when she was with mom, for even close to 24 hours at a pop. It just seems so "lay down and die" to just not try anything. And some of you are starting to say that I maybe should just get the answers for myself directly from her. This would take me knowing full well that it may not go well, or get worse. But honestly, I don't have her now, so if she says I am not hers, then whats the difference beside truly having to face that more than I have already. I think that is the worst it could get, and then poof she is out of my life if that is the case. But if not, and there is more to this, I would regret in life that I didn't pursue that. Not from her desperate state, but to say that when she is ready to be serious about sobriety, we can talk. One of the strongest negotiating positions in any situation is to be able to walk away and mean it. If I don't like the way things go, I am ready to walk away and mean it. How she handles that from there, is up to her. Likewise, I know I preach saying I want to do this or that, but I haven't...so thus far I have sort of walked away. I'm not trying to be wishy washy, or give hand-waving arguments...instead, I am trying to deal with a very complex situation, while trying to remain drama free myself. Like I said before, I am at a more stable place...that doesn't mean I don't cry still, it just means every day gets a tiny bit better. But I may still need to seek the conversation with her directly...I just don't know when, where, or how. So, please appreciate that I am reading all your comments, and suggestions, I have not done anything besides grieve, ruminate, and try to help my brain through this. Even if it sounds stupid to some of you, just remember hindsight is 20-20, but when in the situation, it sure is hard to see it. Plus, there aren't many people on here that chime in about their successes with their A's. I wish I could hear something from them. I don't like to dwell in negativity, and not that what you are all saying is negative, it is just reality for some of you. And that experience is extremely appreciated when shared! So thank you again! I know my situation isn't unique, but that doesn't mean it is directly out of a play book either. There is always gray area. And this is what I am contemplating.

Feel free to keep commenting, and giving recommendations.

GoodguyJoel

LLLisa,

Maybe that is what I need to do. And I do want to say that it is hard to believe there is no one chiming in saying that they have had success. I'm not saying this for false hopes, but I think it is very black or white from what I have been told. Is that really how life is? (rhetorical)

I just don't know what to do...I am trying to make up my own mind, while taking in the recommendations of others. But I am curious, if this wasn't about addiction, would you all be saying the same things? Or would your opinions be the same if you hadn't had to see the ugliest side of addiction. I am guessing my story seems like a treat to all you, because people have been through much worse. I am just some poor sap that his girl left him. I know the tremendous damage addiction can really do beyond just heartbreak. I haven't experienced that first hand, but it isn't like it isn't well known.

I am by no means criticizing any one here, so please, please do not take it that way. I just wonder, as my inquisitive self often does, does it have to be so black and white? Heck, we are talking about a person with currently limited resources, limited mental capacity, limited resources...This isn't some monster...its a sad self-beat up person...with an addiction. I am not downplaying the severity of it, but they are not monsters. They are just people. And just like them, I, we make mistakes too. For me, I would rather try to make amends with those I have hurt in anyway, but that is just me. This is why I wonder about the "gray area" in all this. But I am uncertain as of right this moment, what I need to do for myself.

BUT please keep the comments and suggestions coming, and pointing out my previous thoughts/posts, because it all does help me think more clearly.

hopeful4

Joel, I can only speak for myself. I think you have this mindset of "maybe" which for an addict translates into "opportunity to manipulate." Unfortunately, your story is pretty much straight out of the play book. You seem like a nice guy, and I think the folks here at SR just don't want you to open yourself up to being manipulated, thus leading a life of misery.

Only you can decide your future actions, and how you will respond. I hope you continue to take good care of YOU!

HardLessons

The reality of the situation is that she is in active addiction & she is not seeking sobriety or recovery. That same bottom line applied to my situation.

Because she is an active addict you have to decide if you have the skills to effectively deal with the situation. In other words, can you help her in a positive way? From all that you have written to date, in my humble opinion, you clearly do not have the skills necessary to help her. Professionals in the expensive long term in-patient rehab couldn't help her. I also did not have those skills.

You have to be fair to her Joel. What is your current motivation in trying to help her? Is it for your benefit or hers? By trying to help, what further damage are you going to do to her? You talked her into going to inpatient rehab & look what happened! I had to ask myself the same tough questions.

I'm sure you are well aware, based on the past, the huge risk you will take concerning your own well being by having future contact. If you didn't see such a risk you wouldn't be here asking questions. Can it get worse for you? If you don't know the possibilities - do not take the risk. Yes worse - way worse - I can fill you in if you want.

Thanks

SparkleKitty

The truth is, Joel, you *don't* have any say in her stuff. You never have. You never will. It's hers.

You do, however, have *all* the say in YOUR stuff, and you should do what you feel is right for you. If that means reaching for a stove we're all so sure it hot, then so be it. We're here for you no matter what you do or how it turns out.

For myself, I had to learn the hard way that no matter how I frame the perspective in my head, there are no magic words that can change another person into who I wish they were. Letting go of all the "if only's..." really freed my emotional brainspace up to find true contentment and peace, with or without certain people in my life.

GoodguyJoel

Helpful and Hardlessons,

Thank you both for your feedback. I am trying to do well for myself, and will continue to. I definitely am trying to figure out your points for myself. It is easy to hear these things, but to truly understand it means to deeply contemplate it. This is why I will not be taking any immediate action. I just feel so unfinished...and I hope that is understandable.

It is quite true! I am not a professional in this realm, and I did come here because I was not. This is why your feedback is so precious. Hardlessons, I don't know if I feel right saying I am the reason she is where she is now. As I described before, it was her that chose that place for rehab, and how she handled it while in there. It is pretty clear she wasn't serious, which is a shame. But it is also clear she was not mentally prepared to address bigger questions and focus on her well being by taking the actions that lead her to where she is now. I return to those who said "they didn't know their head from a hole in the ground for a long time after and during rehab." I think this is more likely the case than anything seeing as how she acted towards all her loved ones...

By talking with the mother who has contact with her regularly, I am trying to feel the landscape, and judge for myself whether or not I should reach out or not. It is true, she is still using, and in light of that, I have to admit she is likely in an even worse place mentally. So, could I be helpful? (self question)...I am uncertain right now.

Hardlessons, it may be helpful to hear those worse, way worse points. Please do feel free to share them if you think I would gain knowledge from them.

Thank you both for the replies. And I do see you are concerned for me. I am grateful to you for that, as I am to all of you. I'm just trying to work through this. And I am just uncertain if reaching out may give me those answers or not. I will sit on that thought for a bit before doing anything.

As for motivation...its a mixed bag...I want to help her get the treatment she needs, for her. But I also want a chance to speak to her...not immediately about the relationship, but maybe in time. I just don't want that door to close forever from her end, and for me, I don't want to simply "lay down and die" regarding her. It is a tough decision to make.

Again, please keep the comments and ideas coming.

trailmix

No one (not even you) knows what contact with her will bring. What everyone is telling you is that addicts do have similarities - one of them being that in active addiction their drug of choice is number one. Not you, not the puppy, not her parents, possibly not even her children (if she had any). No - DOC is the thing.

That brings with it all kinds of stuff, as you well know.

My suggestion that you should go see her is meant in the nicest of ways. It just seems to me that you are not going to let this go. No amount of posts or good advice is going to change your mind.

The experiences shared here are other peoples experiences, maybe you need to see this through.

I do wish you luck, I would like to see it turn out well for you and for her.

GoodguyJoel

Sparkle, and others...

When you keep referring to wet paint, and hot stove...do you mean because she is still an active alcoholic? I just want to clarify? Thanks!

SparkleKitty

Yes.

GoodguyJoel

Sparkle, I really appreciate your post earlier, and I am coming around to realizing the serenity prayer...it is what you are pointing out. I do not expect my words or my actions to change her. But I am hoping I can maybe show her that not all hope is lost for her. She isn't useless. She isn't broken. She just is where she is. And to maybe help her come to accept that. Meanwhile, I can promote her seeking help, and let her know she does have a support system waiting in the wings.

I can try my best to keep the relationship talk out of it, and see if that comes of it in time, but only if she gets serious about getting sober. This is why I will wait a bit before reaching out. See if she makes that choice for herself.

I actually was saddened the other day when she went to the hospital alone. Her mother actually came and then it ended with a goodbye, and her things being given to her. I remember how she felt so alone, and from others that speak to me on here, facing that part of detox/rehab is lonely. I know they should be building inner strength, and clearly this rehab place she went to didn't promote that since many of the activities were together with others. I just wish I could have shown up, and sat by her side and talked.

I am going to think lots about what you all have said recently, and will try to figure out what is best for me. I think I know, but I really have to double, triple, quadruple, quintuple check myself on it, the reasons underlying it, and how I will handle it.

Anyways, please keep up with the comments/suggestions! Thank you all again.

GoodguyJoel

Hardlessons,

Again, I will just ask because I don't want it to slip to the way side...

Maybe you can fill me in on how it got worse for you? I just think feedback like this may help me with making a decision. Thanks in advanced.