PeacefulWater12

Joel, perhaps you could let all this go. By analysing it and going over and over it in your mind, you are exhausting yourself. Plus you can't get concrete answers.

Perhaps move your focus on taking care of yourself and healing.

hopeful4

Joel, stop. Stop trying to blame yourself for her behaviors. She has chosen this route. What you said....they are all the truth. When you feel backed up against the wall, sometimes frustration wins out. She was already drinking when you said these things, they did not cause her to drink.

As your counselor and her family and friends can clearly see, she has some very deep issues. I dare say the person she was displaying to you is not the real person she is. Her true colors came out eventually, just as they are doing now. Of course she was not happy with how you handled her drinking. She was looking for someone who will just tolerate and enable. When you won't do so, they become enraged.

STOP trying to blame yourself. STOP looking at the past, it's gone and cannot and will not be changed. Instead, focus on the future and continuing to get yourself to a better place.

CentralOhioDad

There is so much I want to say about this post, Joel, but I don;t have time right now. But I will say this: stop beating yourself up over what you said.STOP! You are not bad, cruel, terrible, horrendous, unloving, selfish, etc. NOT.AT.ALL

And one more thing - most of the things you said to her are, in fact, TRUTHS! Don't berate yourself for telling her the truth.

tomsteve

joel, PLEASE read and read post #62.
it would be wise to print it out and put a couple where you can see it often.
and toss out the ass kikin machine- it dont have solutions

HardLessons

Joel

As I read your posts its clear to me that you are obsessed & sick from your relationship with this woman. You remind me of someone & that someone is me.

I was very sick & damaged from my relationship. Terribly damaged. I am better now than I was but I know I'm still sick from it.

I am concerned for you. Please get yourself help. Please consider stopping all this madness. There is no need for you to talk to anyone concerning your AEXGF. You need to get off this crazy train. Give yourself a total break from it. Its what I had to do.

If you lover her then also be fair to her. Let go (with love) you aren't doing her any good either.

Please let the dust settle. Please let go of it all. Please help yourself.

I am concerned for your wellbeing.

OpheliaKatz

What Hardlessons said. Also, in my experience, there are no good guys in a relationship with addiction. Nothing you said or didn't say could have affected the outcome of your relationship. You can't apologize for all the horrible things you might have said or done and neither can she -- done is done. And I don't even think the things you said are that bad, to be honest. She might think so because they were intolerant of her addiction, but let's not presume to know what she thinks. You just have to let this go. Perhaps if she ever gets better (and this is a big if), you will see her when you've both lived your lives and she will say, "hey I dated you way back when I was a sprout and I was mean to you, so sorry," but that is not likely.

dandylion

In my time here and in the (over) ten thousands of posts that I have made, I have said this at least, several hundred times....so, I will say it again...lol.

When a person has had their life turned upside down...through sudden or tragic loss....they grieve. They mourn.
All of the Joel behaviors that are recorded here are absolutely normal for his early stage of grieving, as I see it. the obsessing, the ruminating, the reflecting over every detail of the relationship, the bargaining, the panicky feeling, the profound sadness and fear of the future....the what Ifs....the reaching out to family/friends for possible answers....the trying to connect again....
These are all typical and normal.....The total focus on the lost...or, believed to be lost loved one, is normal. And it is umdescribably painful as it is happening.

I have spent years working with those who are grieving (in psychiatry), and, also working with alcoholics.....I have sat and held the hands with those going through it....And, I have been through it myself. I was a total mess for several months. Oh, how I struggled....for months....Eventually, I healed and went on to find a wonderful love....near the end of that year....
But, you should have seen me...!!
It is a process that o ne must go through.......and the time frame cannot be forced...no matter how impatient other people might become to see the suffering one "return to normal".....
Grief is a powerful thing, and it will have it's own way....It subsides when it is time for it to subside.....
While it is going on, it is usually impossible to distinguish normal, horrible grieving from any other pathological process that may be co-existant....One has to wait for the grief to process. Just like, it is impossible to diagnose other conditions that a person may have, until the drinking has been arrested for a while....

I believe that we have to be patient and allow the person to grieve and mourn, without admonishing them for it. Admonishing them is to add further pain to an already suffering person.

It takes a ton of patience to walk beside a grieving person and allow them to be.....
in my opinion

Sasha1972

I understand feeling bad about things that you said to the alcoholic in the throes of the craziness. There's no way to take these things back, but as a way of facing your guilt, could you pay it forward? Could you do something like volunteer work for a cause that's meaningful to you and dedicate this work to putting something positive into the world, to balance the negativity that you were involved in creating? Neither you nor the ex can go back in time and change anything, but you can decide what you do with the memories - use them to flagellate yourself, or use them as a catalyst for doing something constructive and good for the world?

You could volunteer to walk dogs at the local animal shelter, serve meals to the homeless, tutor kids in their homework, fundraise for a cause you believe in ... lots of possibilities for "making up" for the pain you may have caused your ex.

hearthealth

I did say things like:

"you are a f****** drunk!" Yes
"you are an alcoholic" Yes
"you can't even take care of yourself" Yes
"I don't want to talk to you because you are drunk" Yes
"I am leaving this room because I cannot deal with you when you are not sober" Yes
"you are slurring your words (and replicated the voice)"Yes
"look at yourself, are you proud?" Yes
"G*D Dam__it, you said you wouldn't do this again!" Yes
"I can smell the alcohol on your breath" Yes
"You act like a piece of trash when you are like this (drunk)" Yes (a jerk)
"I can't see you walk down the isle of our wedding drunk like this" (I can't see us married anymore like this.)
"I wont be able to marry you like this" (stay married)

I've said all these things maybe some in slightly different ways but have said them and not pleasantly also.

I couldn't help it, I was so upset to see her this way, to choose the alcohol over me. That is what they do.

When I stopped enabling and started establishing boundaries is when he didn't like me.

amy55

Joel,

I remember feeling like you do. Feeling like you are just discarded, like you have no value, that you are just a nothing. I felt like that also. I hated that feeling, I kept trying to fix that because it's the worst feeling that you can have.

What I didn't realize then, was I was waiting for the person or persons that made me feel this way, was the person or persons that I wanted to make it better for me.

The things that you said to her, well I have said lots worse. I was married for 26 years. I was just sick of the way I was being treated. It was like the more outspoken I got, (saying the words that you did) the more my ex attacked me. It was like I was getting stronger, and he wanted to put me down more and more.

The words that you said, was speaking your boundaries. The more you speak your boundaries, the worse they get.

OK, I get it that you feel that you didn't speak your boundaries in just the right way. What is the right way? I couldn't find any right way of doing it. I was accused of saying things that I didn't even say. I was accused of calling him a "monster". I never said that. It was his perception of the things that I was saying.

My life wasn't good then. I was handed a situation that I had no idea of how to handle it. I had no coping skills for any of this. I kept trying to fall back on the coping skills that I did have, and that was to try to compromise, try to have peace, and to walk on eggshells. That didn't work either. I tried and I tried, but the thing is, I just couldn't do it. I tried everything. I felt like a failure.

I still wasn't able to give it up though. I had children, they were in honor classes. I thought I had to keep trying. I didn't want to move my children out of the school district. I'm a perfectionist,( well, not anymore.) My marriage became my project. If something was wrong with it, "well I can fix that". I wanted to teach my kids that once you set your mind to do something, that you can do it. Well, that is true except when you are trying to fix another person.

I turned to alcohol instead. I didn't have the coping skills, didn't know what to do, and leaving to me wasn't an option. I'm very thick skulled and stubborn.

The abuse got so bad in the house, that I started to sleep in the garage, in my car, but I still thought I could handle things. I couldn't.

This went on for about 8 years. The day I left, my mind was mush. I had that 8 track playing for so long in my head, about how I could fix things and make things right, but that track stopped playing. I was numb. I couldn't even think anymore, I just had to get away.

I drove to a friends house 1 1/2 hours away. I don't even recall how I made it there. I just knew the craziness had to stop. My kids were in college then.

I came to family and friends about Sept 2011. I initially started in the newcomers section for alcoholism.

Joel, I want you to have a good life. It took me 26 years of marriage and many years after that to finally come to a good place for me.

I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm going to tell you that there are many of us out here and on this forum that want to shorten your suffering time. We've been there, done that.

((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
amy

GoodguyJoel

All, thank you again for the responses.

I also want to propose that this has only been a short duration of time regardless of all of these events. It's not like we are 10 months into this, or even 6, we are talking a month and a half. It is clear that she is still struggling...to the point of being pushed out of the home of the man she ran off with, from the parents house, and away from all close friends. The reality is that which her mother told me on the phone...she is back in my small home town. She is staying with another person she met through a previous outpatient treatment program.

She is still actively drinking as we last heard, and since it is literally down the road from me, I know she is getting wine from the place she used to get it from. It has only been two days. The prospects for her in this unhealthy environment are likely that she will continue to drink, and eventually be booted from this resource...then where to next. She isn't back at the guy's place she ran off with initially since it is out of state, and the mother still texts her. She says she is safe, but I know she is miserable. It is truly coasting and trying to keep afloat, at least in my eyes. She will use every tool in her arsenal (looks, kindness, etc) to keep this going, but honestly everyone eventually sees through it. I was well aware she had a problem once it was getting worse and worse, and I tried to help her through it, thinking she would turn it around. Her real intentions were not to change clearly, but as time will go on, she will burn more bridges. I think this is a potential opportunity for change.

I went to Al-Anon yesterday, and the topic was self worth. I talked, and said I was in a state of both high self worth, because of what my goals are and my accomplishments, but then extremely low due to what happened with my ex. It is a fluid thing where I exist in both worlds currently, but I awoke this morning realizing she is still not better. But I am free of the addiction she has. I am not happy without her, but I do not have to struggle with her struggle. This realization gave me the strength to realize that she has no power...she has no power over herself, her actions, or her life at the moment, it is all addiction. She also doesn't have any true power over me. I am making my life, and continuing doing good things, and trying harder to be a good person, and she is completely out of that. It actually comes from a place of love, and strength. Although I feel knocked down, I actually am strong. I miss her dearly, but she has to fight this battle. I can only do what I know is good for me. I still think about her frequently today, but its less sad because I am not the one living out of bags, or my life falling apart (I don't mean that rudely towards her, just pointing out the obvious). I have my life still chugging along, with great prospects in the future. I actually feel empathy and sadly pity for her. In light of this I wrote something that I may say to her in due time, whether she reaches out to me, or I eventually to her.

One last side of this. I know much of what is going on with her. But she doesn't know that. I think one of the more prominent reasons she is not reaching out to me is due to embarrassment. She thought she would go on, and recall...move to Miami and become a great real estate agent. Well, now shes at a persons house who barely knows her sleeping on a couch (I am guessing), with all her worldly possessions in two suitcases (she had more stuff, and still at my house too, but this is all she has now). This is sad, and I think she would never want to show me how low she has gone in only a month and a half. We do a lot of speculation on here, and we say her actions speak...well yes they do, she is currently staying at what could otherwise be considered a "random's" house, with no job, not much money, no people around her who love her, and quite literally doing nothing all day. There is nothing to be proud of there. She is clinging to the last few strings she has with regard to connections, and those will burn out too, as I am sure you all agree, especially in this heavy stage of addiction.

The hope is that she will take action upon this embarrassment. I cannot be certain, but I can hope, for her sake. I still love her as I mention, and I have no clue what the future holds for us, but I am not going to be part of this slow or quick swirling down the drain. This is within my own control, to not go down with her.

The thing I battle with is sadness, and sadness comes and goes. Today, you can tell, I am more upbeat. The reason is that my initial fears took over, and as time is going on, my fears aren't real. My fear of her not realizing what we had, and how she doesn't care is slowly moving away...because I know what we had, and if anything, she is probably seeing that more than ever right now. It's not meant as revenge, I just mean that I hope this is eye opening for her. Now, we could say that in her intoxicated state, she probably can't think straight about that. BUT I will say that I THINK somewhere in her, she wishes she was by our fire place with our puppy, back home, sleeping comfortable with a loving person by her side.


This just is another example of when addiction takes control...She escalated, escalated, and escalated...went to rehab, thought she is better than it all, thought she could find some secret life that had more to offer than what she had before, that all blew up, and is now in an even more chaotic situation, and still escalating. My point by saying this is that I realize that even with a month of sobriety in rehab...that she was no where near stable emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and with sobriety. Everyone initially told me..."well she made her decision when she was sober for a month Joel." And I can't negate that, but look at where that decision has taken her. The one's that would say this would also state that she was serious and was going to be different, well they were wrong about that too.

I am starting to figure this out for myself, and not rely on what others who were on the side lines think. Here, you all have presented the severity and the hopelessness/chaotic life of continuing as an alcoholic... Well all of you are right. And you are right about me having to view this from a different perspective. I am trying to do so each and every day. Every detail someone has told me on here about what will likely happen with her has been true...the only element yet to come is for her to reach out to me...and I truly believe that day is coming soon. I wont wait by my phone for it like a needy little boy, rather, I will prepare my thoughts now, and when or if it does come, I will be in an emotionally stable place to deal with the situation she will present.


Clearly, I am less mush mind today...just have lots on my mind! But here I am, working hard today, because I can, because I know I can do great things if I set my mind to it. I cannot sit and dwell today for 4-5 hours about her drinking, and getting no where fast. I just know it in my mind, and accept that is where she is today. Tomorrow may be different, but I am taking this day for what it is, better.

I just want to add that although she has a huge ego problem when she is on alcohol...eventually she will be humbled by what the world puts in front of her. We all have been, I have before, I am now, and expect to be humbled again from whatever the universe has to present me. We are all subject to this, and that means she is not excluded. And this I hope may be her last downfall before she gets really honest with herself, and wants to change. Again, I hope, and ironically...I have faith that she will (call me foolish, but this can't go on forever this way). And if she is eventually sober, then I think I could actually talk to her...but that time isn't right now. So brush it off, and keep going.

searching4shay

Hi Joel! Please continue to protect yourself. If she contacts you, and deep down you know you shouldn't respond, just don't. You owe yourself that. As a matter of fact, you only owe yourself.

Love her or not, she can not love you because she can not even love herself right now. You are not going to change that. She is the only one that can do that, and she has a very long road ahead (assuming she ever even tries to take that road). Having spent over half of my life with a man I now don't even recognize, I know how very painful that realization is. You're certainly not alone.

Like you, I've said some pretty hateful things especially when things are really bad. Funny thing is, AH doesn't remember most of it, and like others have said, a lot of it has gotten blown out of proportion into something it never was and never was meant to be.

You are a logical thinker, as am I, but you're trying to find logic in a situation that has none. The things you said to her have either been forgotten, or blown into something unrecognizable. Forgive yourself.

PuzzledHeart

^^^What searching4shay said.

If she recognizes that you have your own timeline for healing, and that you may not be ready to speak to her, that is a sign of true remorse.

BUT if she pushes, pushes, and pushes to get some sort of response from you, that is a sign that she doesn't recognize your right to hold your own boundaries. And that's not the kind of relationship that you want.

My sister did this a lot - everything had to be on her timeline, and it was difficult for her to conceive that not everything could happen when she wanted it to. And it was exhausting to deal with this. When I realized that I DIDN'T have to put up with this, that I had the right to my own timeline too, it was a revelation.

So to reinforce what searching4shay said, you don't have to jump just because she asks you to jump. You don't have to give her an answer just because she's asking you for one. If she turns up the heat, that's like baking a cake at 600 degrees so it finishes faster. All you end up with is burnt cake. And you've been burnt enough already.

OpheliaKatz

Joel, you seem to be making progress. I may have been unduly harsh in my previous comments, but please, even if you are grieving, protect yourself. I found that "no contact" made things a lot easier for me to tolerate my grief. I'm not going to give myself full credit for this though. I had to be forced into no contact. My friends and family (what little friends and family I had left after a decade of isolation because of the addiction), forced me to keep away from him. I know people now who refuse to talk to me about him... and not because they don't care about my feelings. They said: "you have to move on, your relationship was toxic, no one has time to waste on this anymore... including you." I didn't understand that my relationship was toxic then, I have to remind myself of it now.

Losing someone hurts. My (stbx)AH took a huge chunk of my history with him. I still have days when I see things new -- like rainbows, insects, or happy children (I was literally blind to these things for years because my mind was always preoccupied with the addict), and I think of telling someone, but there's only me. It's hard to be alone. It feels very exposing.

You are going to be okay. Just trust in that. You have to keep going for you. You have to look after you, most of all, because there are so many things in life that are completely uncontrollable... and other people are never "ours" to control. I've learned this the hard way: my (stbx)AH was never "mine" and I was never "his".

I think of the only time that my (stbx)AH said that he was too damaged for a relationship and that I should leave him (at the time, I had no idea what addiction was), I said, "No I'll stick by you NO MATTER WHAT!" That was the moment he stopped being embarrassed about his actions in front of me -- because I told him (more or less) that it didn't matter what he did, I would be there to love him. I think he wanted something to reach for... and I basically gave him a ladder and said, "you don't have to try". So he stopped trying, and with that went his respect for me. I think the other posters who said she hasn't contacted you out of respect and embarrassment might be right -- maybe she doesn't want you to know her in the state she's in, maybe she knows you deserve better. We can't presume though.

But you do. You deserve better.

First you should let yourself be sad. Don't try to "understand" anything because it makes no sense. Just sit and allow yourself to be sad. Maybe write a few unsent letters (please don't send them, just get your feelings out). And then get angry. And get help for yourself. This is not an easy journey, Joel. However, you're going to keep losing people in life. I can say that for certain. You will lose people for no reason whatsoever. For stupid reasons. For reasons that have nothing to do with you. For reasons that have nothing to do with how good or bad those people are... or how much you love or hate them. I know I will and it scares the cr*p out of me... but even being middle-aged, I still have a lot of growing up to do and a finite time to do it. You will be okay.

hopeful4

Very well said Ophelia!

GoodguyJoel

Ophelia,

Thank you for the response. It appears you are right about many things in your post. Her mother has called me a few times, including this morning. I am honestly in a more stable point than the poor mother, and told her I support her in what she is doing, because she has to take care of herself (just like you all have taught me). I told her to seek Al-Anon, and a counselor, she said she is seeking a counselor in the upcoming day or two.

Her reason for contacting me was because she is obviously concerned. Her daughter is somewhere that she doesn't know, and says "she can do this by herself" (meaning quit drinking). But both the mother and I know better because we have seen her try that numerous times, and it always ended up in relapse. Her mother is seeking out a treatment facility for her that is all women, located locally. I told her I think that is a great idea. The problem remains, that the Aex wont pursue going to this. Her mom tried to say it isn't like other places, and isn't a detox lock up, it is another highly recommended place that has very qualified professionals, but at this point she still refuses.

It seems so difficult to offer the help, but only be met with a brick wall. Her mom has kept her boundaries that she is not welcome back at her house, and I have not said a peep to her saying come back. Again, I am just kind of on the side lines, and since I care about this person (and actually love her), I am trying to be kind to the mother, and offer any support I can.

I am not really sucked back into this, I am working, and doing my thing. I am working out, and walking the dog lots, and trying to improve the home when I can. I by no means am in a great place, but again realizing that I am not the one with the issues gives me some serenity. Knowing my ex is still suffering is sad, but I do try positive affirmations each day to try to promote good things in my life, and others. To direct life back on the course that I want it.

I will be honest, I haven't given up hope for our relationship 100%, I actually teeter at about 50/50, and don't know what the future holds. But it is so obvious that now isn't the time to pursue this. But I do wonder if I could have a positive influence on her to seek treatment if I did reach out. Not to speak of the relationship (well, I'll be honest again, and say that I might want to say that things between us don't have to be this way, and that all is not lost), but to promote getting help, and to recognize the chaos in her life, and in the lives of others due to all this. To offer support when she does seek treatment.

I just wonder how she would respond. In this alcoholic state, it seems she is mad at everyone, and acts as such. I was lucky enough to speak in a chat with a very kind person about their recovery. She said sometimes it isn't best to be alone during this period. That maybe the isolation is keeping her from real help. But then again, when we were involved, the situation didn't improve much either. Do you all think she just needs to ride this out on her own, and make her own mistakes, and keep diving deeper? I get that she has the right to do so, but for me and the mother, it seems that it would be a shame not to try another option.

I'm not trying to dive back into this head strong by any means, it is just the mother and I talking at this point. She even told me that she finally is seeing that the choice she made after 4 years with me doesn't make any sense, and that she really does see that the alcohol has affected her judgement, with regard to me/her together, and the actions that occurred pre and post rehab.

Any thoughts? I am guessing I will get lots of "What are you doing???" and "RUN" but I simply can't. I am not hurting myself in any way by talking with the mom, and see my calm demeanor actually shine when I talk with her. It is what it is, so feel free to add some thoughts or comments. Thank you all.

GoodguyJoel

I should add, the understanding I have come to is that alcohol and addiction is what is driving this erratic behavior out of her, and not me. I cannot understand the decisions she makes, but I can understand that there is alcohol behind them. This is much better than thinking everything in our relationship was fake, or that she hates my guts somehow overnight...it is all just part of the addiction, and that is out of my control.

FireSprite

Yes. Go back & re-read this entire thread again. (And your previous thread as well as the Classic Sticky posts at the top of the forum)

I'm positive this question has been answered ad nauseam - the answers wont change based on this new information Joel.

IMO any action at this point, in any way, is more than likely to bring New Pain but taking some time & space to observe & get your own side of the street straightened up (while she's spiraling anyway) can ONLY benefit you.

CentralOhioDad

A few of my thoughts on your post:
1. Yes, you have issues too - we all do, we are sometimes addicted to the person and the 'fix', and not alcohol or drugs.

2. What positive influence do you think you can exact at this point in the game? You tried when she wasn't as deep as she is now, her friends tried, the post-rehab fling probably tried, her family has tried, the puppy picture tried.. No, No, No - you're not that powerful. You just are not.

3. Personally, I think you are hurting yourself by talking with her mom, and step-dad. Because you are still trying to find the fix, find the logic, find the cure, find the 'right words' or the right whatever it is to 'cure her'. People drill "no contact" into us for a reason her on this forum. There must be a REALLY good reason for it.

I still have 'hope' I could one day become a professional golfer - but I don't dwell on it hour after hour, day after day. I still say she is taking about way too much time and space in your head.

Peace,
COD

CentralOhioDad

And there might be way more that you don't, and may never learn about. What led to the alcohol and the downward spiral? I don;t think people 'just become' alcoholics, there is a spark behind it. You don;t know what that spark is, nor is it your place to figure it out. It's nice to blame 'just the alcohol', but methinks there is a lot of history behind that.

Just sayin'