Difficult Situations
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 47
Spalding, reading your story brought me right back to when I lived with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her mom was a narcissist, and I see so many parallels. I worked for my BPD friend as well, and I didn't realize how absolutely insane it was (despite my psychologist father telling me how abusive her behavior was) until I got out. I still remember going to my first therapy session weeks after I had gone no contact and all I could say was that I felt so responsible for everything. It's absolutely exhausting, and most of the things you are feeling responsible for should not be your responsibility. Now, I am a few years out from that situation, and I look back at it and it absolutely blows my mind. While you are in it, you cannot see the forest for the trees. It seems normal because it IS your normal. But it doesn't have to be! Unfortunately, when it comes to your mom's alcoholism, you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. I hear that your biggest fear is her getting sick and dying, but it sounds like she is already there. She will be there whether you help her or not. At this point, there is nothing you can do to help her, and when you try to help her, it not only does not meet her unrealistic standards (which will move so that you can never meet them), it is also detrimental to you. The only thing that saved my sanity was going no contact. It was difficult, and they will try everything in their power to get you to break no contact, and manipulate you to the best of their ability, but I hope you can stay strong and see what life can be like without being chained to an anchor whose only intent is to bring you down. You are clearly very intelligent from your writings, and you deserve better. IT GETS BETTER, but only if you can let go of the toxicity and the feelings of guilt that have been instilled in you. Normal people wouldn't feel guilty for going no contact, it's an act of self preservation.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 190
Yeah, it certainly has been a rocky road. It will continue to be as well.
So, my mum is continuing on her path of not drinking, which is a really good thing. It's frustrating to see her continue to do this without support (she stopped her program thing), but that is out of my control.
My next worry will be that she will expect me to come back because she isn't drinking anymore. It will become a lot harder for me to justify my position, especially knowing how hard it is financially impacting her.
I know that I need to stick to my guns because this is such an unpredictable disease, and I want to be out of reaction mode (so if something were to happen partway through my year, the summer, etc, I wont be left scrambling again).
How do I explain that to her, without being rude or disrespectful, or throwing her past in her face? OR saying that I dont think she can do it (she'll say I'm dooming her to fail, and that I will never believe in her if I take the attitude of unpredictability).
This week I have been here has been pretty fine. It's hard not to fall into the same old same old pattern of saying: 'it's going fine now, so...'
So, my mum is continuing on her path of not drinking, which is a really good thing. It's frustrating to see her continue to do this without support (she stopped her program thing), but that is out of my control.
My next worry will be that she will expect me to come back because she isn't drinking anymore. It will become a lot harder for me to justify my position, especially knowing how hard it is financially impacting her.
I know that I need to stick to my guns because this is such an unpredictable disease, and I want to be out of reaction mode (so if something were to happen partway through my year, the summer, etc, I wont be left scrambling again).
How do I explain that to her, without being rude or disrespectful, or throwing her past in her face? OR saying that I dont think she can do it (she'll say I'm dooming her to fail, and that I will never believe in her if I take the attitude of unpredictability).
This week I have been here has been pretty fine. It's hard not to fall into the same old same old pattern of saying: 'it's going fine now, so...'
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
You don't have to explain your decisions to your mother in terms of HER. What I mean is that it is OK to just say, "Mom, I am nearing being an adult now, and it is time for me to be out on my own." Period.
It is OK to do what you need to do for yourself. Regardless of what she needs you to do for HER.
Having raised 2 kids and 3 stepkids, my goal was always toward their self sufficiency as adults. That meant that when they reached adulthood, they would leave my home and our relationship would change, and that is what happened. That was my job as a mother. I measure my own success in terms of their ability to live a full, happy and responsible life as adults. I think that is normal for a mom to want.
ShootingStar1
It is OK to do what you need to do for yourself. Regardless of what she needs you to do for HER.
Having raised 2 kids and 3 stepkids, my goal was always toward their self sufficiency as adults. That meant that when they reached adulthood, they would leave my home and our relationship would change, and that is what happened. That was my job as a mother. I measure my own success in terms of their ability to live a full, happy and responsible life as adults. I think that is normal for a mom to want.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
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I don't know. I think that unless your goal is to live with one of your parents for the rest of your life, you should be focused on creating an independent situation for yourself for your own sake. You don't owe anyone an explanation for that.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 190
I think she also wants that, but on her timeline. She always says how there was some sort of deal, for me to live with her until my education was finished. My plans are quite sudden and unexpected, and impact her negatively, and my dad positively (she doesnt get child support, he doesnt have to pay it).
So, she'll probably argue for that independence to happen after it stops legally (divorce agreement will have to be ammended/go to court), financially (no longer getting child support), and emotionally (sudden, leaving on bad terms over her alcoholism, sudden codependent behaviour stopping) impacting her.
It's all really messy. Yes, it should be about me and my independence, and how families should want to support that. Unfortunately I am not in that position, and I am left reacting to the consequences of my actions, and others' reactions to them.
So, she'll probably argue for that independence to happen after it stops legally (divorce agreement will have to be ammended/go to court), financially (no longer getting child support), and emotionally (sudden, leaving on bad terms over her alcoholism, sudden codependent behaviour stopping) impacting her.
It's all really messy. Yes, it should be about me and my independence, and how families should want to support that. Unfortunately I am not in that position, and I am left reacting to the consequences of my actions, and others' reactions to them.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 190
I know my actions havent done this, and I know she's basically put herself in this position. I'm just tired of dreading these conversations and arguments. She doesnt back down. I hate always feeling like my relationship with her is in limbo, waiting for the next thing to go wrong.
Also! A huge thing that drives me nuts, is that she will say she said something, but I swear she didnt. And then it's this whole big thing where she says she said something, and I'm practically positive she didnt and it causes all these annoying fights. Ugh. Either she didnt say it and thought she did, or she said it and I didnt hear. Or both. I dont even know. We already have enough problems, these things really dont need to add up.
Also! A huge thing that drives me nuts, is that she will say she said something, but I swear she didnt. And then it's this whole big thing where she says she said something, and I'm practically positive she didnt and it causes all these annoying fights. Ugh. Either she didnt say it and thought she did, or she said it and I didnt hear. Or both. I dont even know. We already have enough problems, these things really dont need to add up.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Well. Today is Sunday, it's time for me to leave. Of course she gets upset when I say this, saying that it's not love or caring when I see someone who is so unwell and leave. I tell her, I'm just down the street, I've been here all week, and she says it's not the same. She says she doesnt know anyone who would leave someone feeling so unwell.
She really is unwell. Her tummy is huge, she's lethargic, not able to move a lot, weak. She refuses to go to the hospital, though she has said that she thinks she should (that's complicated by the fact that she isnt currently covered as she should be by my dad's insurance and she cant afford to go if she isnt covered, which is horrible timing). She's trying to ask our family doc to refill a prescription for diuretics which she took when she was in the hospital 4 years ago, but that's risky. She needs proper medical attention, not the pick and choose she wants.
I cant keep staying here, I have appointments. I need to get work done, and it's really depressing sitting beside someone who is so unwell, splayed on her couch, and refusing to do anything about it.
She has for the most part stopped drinking, and is taking her anti-depressant, which is good. So I guess she is doing something. BUT, if she is feeling so ill that she's afraid to be alone, she needs to get a professional, not me. SHe knows how to call 911 if I'm not here. I know it's scary, but I could get there in no time if something were to happen anyways. PLUS I can check on her.
She really is unwell. Her tummy is huge, she's lethargic, not able to move a lot, weak. She refuses to go to the hospital, though she has said that she thinks she should (that's complicated by the fact that she isnt currently covered as she should be by my dad's insurance and she cant afford to go if she isnt covered, which is horrible timing). She's trying to ask our family doc to refill a prescription for diuretics which she took when she was in the hospital 4 years ago, but that's risky. She needs proper medical attention, not the pick and choose she wants.
I cant keep staying here, I have appointments. I need to get work done, and it's really depressing sitting beside someone who is so unwell, splayed on her couch, and refusing to do anything about it.
She has for the most part stopped drinking, and is taking her anti-depressant, which is good. So I guess she is doing something. BUT, if she is feeling so ill that she's afraid to be alone, she needs to get a professional, not me. SHe knows how to call 911 if I'm not here. I know it's scary, but I could get there in no time if something were to happen anyways. PLUS I can check on her.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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She keeps asking me what I can do down at my dad's that I can't there. I don't even know how to answer that. If I say I'm following the schedule then she'll say I'm selfish etc. How can't I change it when I see she's unwell.
There's no way out of upsetting her.
There's no way out of upsetting her.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
You're right, there isn't any way out of upsetting her.
For everything you agree to, three more demands will pop up.
Her intent is not to get you to stay. Her intent is to make you feel guilty. You have a choice in whether or not you participate in her manipulation.
If it were me, I would say, "Fine. I am selfish. See you __________."
For everything you agree to, three more demands will pop up.
Her intent is not to get you to stay. Her intent is to make you feel guilty. You have a choice in whether or not you participate in her manipulation.
If it were me, I would say, "Fine. I am selfish. See you __________."
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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spalding, she guilted you into staying for the week, you stayed, she knows that works so she's trying it again.
She does sound sick, but then if she won't seek medical attention, in fact REFUSES it, then you being there will do nothing. It's possible that if she is seen by a doctor they will find she's been drinking on the sly, or they might treat her and she'll get better and have nothing to hold you. It's in her interests to stay sick because she can beat you over the head with it.
You don't have to argue with her; tell her you are leaving and go. You could talk it over for a long time, but you know she's angling for you to return and nothing else will do.
Spalding, if you have an e-reader, can I suggest you download a book by Manuel Smith called 'When I say No, I Feel Guilty'? The reason I suggest it is that it tells you how to talk to someone who manipulates you into feeling guilty. It's practical, in that it gives you the words to say, in a very easy to learn format. It seems designed for people who have over-bearing mothers! Once you've read it, you could practice with a friend, or ask your therapist to do some role play.
She does sound sick, but then if she won't seek medical attention, in fact REFUSES it, then you being there will do nothing. It's possible that if she is seen by a doctor they will find she's been drinking on the sly, or they might treat her and she'll get better and have nothing to hold you. It's in her interests to stay sick because she can beat you over the head with it.
You don't have to argue with her; tell her you are leaving and go. You could talk it over for a long time, but you know she's angling for you to return and nothing else will do.
Spalding, if you have an e-reader, can I suggest you download a book by Manuel Smith called 'When I say No, I Feel Guilty'? The reason I suggest it is that it tells you how to talk to someone who manipulates you into feeling guilty. It's practical, in that it gives you the words to say, in a very easy to learn format. It seems designed for people who have over-bearing mothers! Once you've read it, you could practice with a friend, or ask your therapist to do some role play.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Spalding, there are programs out there for people who are uninsured, and many places that provide care of a sliding scale also.
If you continue to feed the fire, it will continue to grow. Be calm and stick to your plans. If you don't feed into it there will be less drama.
Tight hugs.
If you continue to feed the fire, it will continue to grow. Be calm and stick to your plans. If you don't feed into it there will be less drama.
Tight hugs.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
Originally Posted by Spalding 
Well. Today is Sunday, it's time for me to leave. Of course she gets upset when I say this, saying that it's not love or caring when I see someone who is so unwell and leave. I tell her, I'm just down the street, I've been here all week, and she says it's not the same. She says she doesnt know anyone who would leave someone feeling so unwell.
She really is unwell. Her tummy is huge, she's lethargic, not able to move a lot, weak. She refuses to go to the hospital, though she has said that she thinks she should (that's complicated by the fact that she isnt currently covered as she should be by my dad's insurance and she cant afford to go if she isnt covered, which is horrible timing). She's trying to ask our family doc to refill a prescription for diuretics which she took when she was in the hospital 4 years ago, but that's risky. She needs proper medical attention, not the pick and choose she wants.
I cant keep staying here, I have appointments. I need to get work done, and it's really depressing sitting beside someone who is so unwell, splayed on her couch, and refusing to do anything about it.
She has for the most part stopped drinking, and is taking her anti-depressant, which is good. So I guess she is doing something. BUT, if she is feeling so ill that she's afraid to be alone, she needs to get a professional, not me. SHe knows how to call 911 if I'm not here. I know it's scary, but I could get there in no time if something were to happen anyways. PLUS I can check on her.
She really is unwell. Her tummy is huge, she's lethargic, not able to move a lot, weak. She refuses to go to the hospital, though she has said that she thinks she should (that's complicated by the fact that she isnt currently covered as she should be by my dad's insurance and she cant afford to go if she isnt covered, which is horrible timing). She's trying to ask our family doc to refill a prescription for diuretics which she took when she was in the hospital 4 years ago, but that's risky. She needs proper medical attention, not the pick and choose she wants.
I cant keep staying here, I have appointments. I need to get work done, and it's really depressing sitting beside someone who is so unwell, splayed on her couch, and refusing to do anything about it.
She has for the most part stopped drinking, and is taking her anti-depressant, which is good. So I guess she is doing something. BUT, if she is feeling so ill that she's afraid to be alone, she needs to get a professional, not me. SHe knows how to call 911 if I'm not here. I know it's scary, but I could get there in no time if something were to happen anyways. PLUS I can check on her.
It is fascinating in a way. The more you pull away, this monster of hers is trying to suck you right back in. Such an incredible selfishness.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 190
Yeah, and it's all coming out of a place of fear for her. I can't even understand how much pain someone must be in to be that fearful. She's lost so much to this, and I think she's afraid she might be losing me.
She also said something along the lines of I can't wait to tell people about this one. She's trying to shame me into staying, because she is so scared and unwell, she just doesnt want to be alone. That's understandable, in a way, but really. It's also not healthy. I cant be her only support. She needs professionals, and to keep in touch with more than just her one (equally messed up/difficult life situations) friend. Its hard because people have either been horrible to her, or she pushed others out of her life. It's so sad.
I truly hope something changes for her, but only she can get that change happening, by reaching out for it. I'm so sad she stopped that program she was in. It had some great resources, but I guess she just wasn't ready.
She also said something along the lines of I can't wait to tell people about this one. She's trying to shame me into staying, because she is so scared and unwell, she just doesnt want to be alone. That's understandable, in a way, but really. It's also not healthy. I cant be her only support. She needs professionals, and to keep in touch with more than just her one (equally messed up/difficult life situations) friend. Its hard because people have either been horrible to her, or she pushed others out of her life. It's so sad.
I truly hope something changes for her, but only she can get that change happening, by reaching out for it. I'm so sad she stopped that program she was in. It had some great resources, but I guess she just wasn't ready.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Well, she's not answering my calls.
So my brain jumps to
1) She's ignoring me because she's upset
2) She went and croaked, or something
Ugh. I hate this feeling of not knowing, especially when she's so unwell. My brain does the worried 'what if' game. Im genuinely afraid of walking in and finding her dead. (I have been for a long time, it just gets worse when I don't hear from her)
So my brain jumps to
1) She's ignoring me because she's upset
2) She went and croaked, or something
Ugh. I hate this feeling of not knowing, especially when she's so unwell. My brain does the worried 'what if' game. Im genuinely afraid of walking in and finding her dead. (I have been for a long time, it just gets worse when I don't hear from her)
Sober since 10th April 2012
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Sounds like manipulation once again. She's getting desperate.
You might have to come to an understanding with her that she answers calls from you, or you stop checking. She really is textbook transparent about her manipulation, but it's great you are seeing through it, and even able to understand where it comes from.
You might have to come to an understanding with her that she answers calls from you, or you stop checking. She really is textbook transparent about her manipulation, but it's great you are seeing through it, and even able to understand where it comes from.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 190
I can't lie, last night was full of anxiety for me. I almost went over there at 11:30pm. Her friend hasnt heard from her, she hasnt checked her email, and no response to my calls.
Part of me is still very very scared that I'm going to find that she wasnt angry, and that the worst has happened. I know all my feelings are part of the codependent handbook, but there is also some reasoning too. I'll know more in about an hour. Wish me luck : S
Part of me is still very very scared that I'm going to find that she wasnt angry, and that the worst has happened. I know all my feelings are part of the codependent handbook, but there is also some reasoning too. I'll know more in about an hour. Wish me luck : S
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Praying for you Spalding, and for your Mom. Regardless of what is going on, she is both physically and mentally sick. This does not give her a reason to manipulate you, or to not try to take care of herself. However, you are right, it's still very sad.
Tight hugs. XXX
Tight hugs. XXX
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