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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 478
Metallic Thorn--codependency, like alcoholism, can be fatal if left untreated. It is not a healthy state of being like independent or interdependent. Interdependency is the healthy state we strive for, where we live and let live. We need no one to complete us. independent 1 plus 1 equals 2 interdependent 1 plus 1 equals 2+ codependency with addict- barely two halves hanging on to appear as one.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Whoah, Whoah!
I just wanted to add something here-
While many of us have attacked the verbosity of MTs posts; my quote was basically admitting that whatever negative feelings I had toward the posts were stemming from my past and my context. Just because I perceive MTs posts as pompous and "not genuine" doesn't mean they're not. And if I am triggered, that is my fault, not hers.
MT, I wish you and Hero all the best, but I think before you make another post regarding your relationship, you should re-read all the amazing advice you have been given. Read the stickies, read the other posts. Be humbled by the wealth of experience and depth of love that comes through this board. I was. And it was that support that keeps me coming back here.
I just wanted to add something here-
While many of us have attacked the verbosity of MTs posts; my quote was basically admitting that whatever negative feelings I had toward the posts were stemming from my past and my context. Just because I perceive MTs posts as pompous and "not genuine" doesn't mean they're not. And if I am triggered, that is my fault, not hers.
MT, I wish you and Hero all the best, but I think before you make another post regarding your relationship, you should re-read all the amazing advice you have been given. Read the stickies, read the other posts. Be humbled by the wealth of experience and depth of love that comes through this board. I was. And it was that support that keeps me coming back here.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Hello everyone. I think Hammer just hit the nail on the head. SR is a support forum. It should be used for the purpose it was intended. Since this particular forum is to help friends and family of alcoholics share and overcome issues of codependency, a poster should respect this boards policies. It appears that the op has not been very empathetic in the way she is triggering many of these members. It appears to be a game that she is playing. If a poster continually "triggered" addicts or alcoholics on the subs abuse forum than the credibility of this site would be compromised. Why should this forum be any different?
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 179
I've wondered why MT's writing style triggers so many people. Myself included. Here are my thoughts: we are all here because we're dealing with a terrible terrible family disease that thrives on denial. We are all to one degree or another trying to recover from this disease and face our own lives with courage and honesty. It's hard but important because either literally, or emotionally and spiritually, our very survival depends on it. To me, MT's words obfuscate. And obfuscation -- not the writing style, but the approach to this problem -- feels dangerous for me right now.
By contrast, I am humbled, instructed, and inspired by the honesty I've seen on this board and in al anon. I am guided by it right now and will focus on that. Hope this makes some sense to someone triggered. It helped me sort it out to write it at least.
By contrast, I am humbled, instructed, and inspired by the honesty I've seen on this board and in al anon. I am guided by it right now and will focus on that. Hope this makes some sense to someone triggered. It helped me sort it out to write it at least.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by cleaninLI 
Hello everyone. I think Hammer just hit the nail on the head. SR is a support forum. It should be used for the purpose it was intended. Since this particular forum is to help friends and family of alcoholics share and overcome issues of codependency, a poster should respect this boards policies. It appears that the op has not been very empathetic in the way she is triggering many of these members. It appears to be a game that she is playing. If a poster continually "triggered" addicts or alcoholics on the subs abuse forum than the credibility of this site would be compromised. Why should this forum be any different?
[if I were going to drag into this -- not intending to] I am wondering why folks are trying to Control or Cure whatever MT is working through. She is a "Writer" whatever that means. Fine by me. I do not think I am her editor. Why do so many folks think that they are?
Just take what you want and leave the rest. She is not even posting to other folks' thread AFAIK. Some of you are chasing her down on her thread to dog her. WTF?
So she writes different and is bound and determined to try every possible f-ed up thing to try to understand What, Why, Control and Cure her guy. Have not every f-ing one of us here not the same f-ing thing -- some of FOR YEARS -- in the name of loving and devotion? Give her a freaking break. She is the same as most of us. Just sounds strange the way she writes it.
I pity the folks that have to make it through my butchered Engineer-Speak, with missing words and clumsy contexts.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
You are absolutely right springs. Alcoholism is a horrible disease! This horrendous disease is responsible for the suffering of so many on this board. Our members have had lives and childhoods that were completely and utterly destroyed by the alcoholic in their family! They are working so hard to pick up the pieces and mend their shattered lives. Many doing this alone and shouldering the burden of responsibility for the children the alcoholic has damaged and then Left behind. For the op to even name her so-called abf Mr. Hero is in itself the epiphany of denial and a blatant slap in the face to those who have and are still suffering and in pain. That is why I believe this op is purposely making a mockery of these caring, knowledgeable, intelligent and well intentioned posters whose only aim is to rescue the op from the progressive devastation of alcoholism.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
For what it's worth...
I laughed out loud at Hammer's first post, because I see that a lot in myself when I come here -- I get really frustrated when confronted with people who say the same thing about their A and their situation that I did when I first came here. AND I WANT TO FIX THEM DAMMIT!
It's not that I'm upset with them -- it's that I feel a bit like I do when you watch horror movies: You sit there and go "don't go down the basement don't go down the basement don't go down the... oh MAAAN! WHY do you have to go down in the BASEMENT??? You KNOW that's ALWAYS where he is!!!"
I feel like I've read the next chapter. I feel like I want to swoop in like a codie eagle and lift codies out of their situation. You know, like a few women did with me when I was married to my A. And I scoffed at them and was upset at them and told them they didn't understand my situation and how dared they suggest my husband was abusive?
Well -- they dared suggest it because they had been there. They saw the signs. In him and in me.
I think it's often similar for me here. While I know that nobody could have hurried me on my way to figuring out how to handle my codependency and my relationship with an A, I still wish when I read other people's stories that they didn't have to experience the downhill ride themselves, that they could learn from other people's experiences.
And then there's people whose As actually find recovery. And who are glad they stuck it out and set boundaries and learned to live with an active A. And every time that happens, it makes me happy and it makes me humble and it reminds me that I actually don't know everything.
I see a lot of myself in your posts, MT. Because like me, you seem to have a faith/belief/ideology that you lean on, one that you seem to perceive as different than (and maybe superior to) that of others.
I was worse: I didn't just think my faith was superior; I thought I was superior. That's where I lived for a decade or more. I was convinced that my Christian faith would save me (that is, make my A stop drinking and become the man I knew he could become), and if I just lived as a good Christian and did X instead of Y, things would turn out OK. And I felt sorry for people who didn't have my insight and depth of faith. I would discuss addiction as a theoretical construct and try to understand it.
And then sh*t got real. And my trying-to-behave-correctly faith didn't work. And my distance-myself-by-theoretical-constructs didn't work. Understanding didn't work. I went from problem solving to fearing for my life, in seconds flat it felt like.
I am trying very hard to accept that we're all fellow strugglers on a path that isn't straight for any of us. Some days it's easier than others. Some days I have more compassion for addicts than others. Some days I have more capacity to listen than others. It's still not a straight path.
The only thing that gets my hackles up -- and it's happened here a few times -- is when someone says something that plays straight into my old codie fears: If I had only had the magical word/behavior/tactic/belief, things could have turned out differently. If I had only known the correct magical spell to fix addiction, I could have saved AXH and my marriage. I think that's what I react to in MT's posts -- and that's on me, not on her. That's my issue, not hers.
TG's post about having faith in the universe has set me on a track of examining my attitudes and reactions this week. And in that vein, selfish though it sounds, I find the threads started by MT and the reactions to them to be very useful for me to monitor my own responses.
And Hammer, you can drop f-bombs any time you want to in my company.
Makes me feel right at home.
I laughed out loud at Hammer's first post, because I see that a lot in myself when I come here -- I get really frustrated when confronted with people who say the same thing about their A and their situation that I did when I first came here. AND I WANT TO FIX THEM DAMMIT!
It's not that I'm upset with them -- it's that I feel a bit like I do when you watch horror movies: You sit there and go "don't go down the basement don't go down the basement don't go down the... oh MAAAN! WHY do you have to go down in the BASEMENT??? You KNOW that's ALWAYS where he is!!!"
I feel like I've read the next chapter. I feel like I want to swoop in like a codie eagle and lift codies out of their situation. You know, like a few women did with me when I was married to my A. And I scoffed at them and was upset at them and told them they didn't understand my situation and how dared they suggest my husband was abusive?
Well -- they dared suggest it because they had been there. They saw the signs. In him and in me.
I think it's often similar for me here. While I know that nobody could have hurried me on my way to figuring out how to handle my codependency and my relationship with an A, I still wish when I read other people's stories that they didn't have to experience the downhill ride themselves, that they could learn from other people's experiences.
And then there's people whose As actually find recovery. And who are glad they stuck it out and set boundaries and learned to live with an active A. And every time that happens, it makes me happy and it makes me humble and it reminds me that I actually don't know everything.
I see a lot of myself in your posts, MT. Because like me, you seem to have a faith/belief/ideology that you lean on, one that you seem to perceive as different than (and maybe superior to) that of others.
I was worse: I didn't just think my faith was superior; I thought I was superior. That's where I lived for a decade or more. I was convinced that my Christian faith would save me (that is, make my A stop drinking and become the man I knew he could become), and if I just lived as a good Christian and did X instead of Y, things would turn out OK. And I felt sorry for people who didn't have my insight and depth of faith. I would discuss addiction as a theoretical construct and try to understand it.
And then sh*t got real. And my trying-to-behave-correctly faith didn't work. And my distance-myself-by-theoretical-constructs didn't work. Understanding didn't work. I went from problem solving to fearing for my life, in seconds flat it felt like.
I am trying very hard to accept that we're all fellow strugglers on a path that isn't straight for any of us. Some days it's easier than others. Some days I have more compassion for addicts than others. Some days I have more capacity to listen than others. It's still not a straight path.
The only thing that gets my hackles up -- and it's happened here a few times -- is when someone says something that plays straight into my old codie fears: If I had only had the magical word/behavior/tactic/belief, things could have turned out differently. If I had only known the correct magical spell to fix addiction, I could have saved AXH and my marriage. I think that's what I react to in MT's posts -- and that's on me, not on her. That's my issue, not hers.
TG's post about having faith in the universe has set me on a track of examining my attitudes and reactions this week. And in that vein, selfish though it sounds, I find the threads started by MT and the reactions to them to be very useful for me to monitor my own responses.
And Hammer, you can drop f-bombs any time you want to in my company.
Makes me feel right at home.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 352
I think if I found someone's posts difficult to read I'd just stop reading them. Seems a lot easier than getting too frustrated about it?
On a personal note, MT, I love reading your posts but for completely the WRONG reasons!!
On a personal note, MT, I love reading your posts but for completely the WRONG reasons!!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 50
When in Rome...
I think everyone should remember that MT is at university. The place where ALL are encouraged to devour information, to think critically and to question orthodoxy. When you are at university doing these things is your MO. And for the student, unlike life beyond university, there is a ready made benchmark for how you are doing, in terms of grades on papers, tutor feedback, and exam results. A student performing well vis-a-vis their peers or against that benchmark will have a natural, human, tendency to be pleased with their achievements to date and to feel confident to contradict or question. MT is in this place. Her "job" is to contradict and question. I really don't think this is a reason to treat her with a lack of basic respect.
On the flip side MT though, there is a fine line between "clever" and "clever dick". The problems, the crises and the sheer tragedies other posters have taken the time to post on your threads are real. They are "some day" events for you it seems. Possible maybe? Probable maybe? You do need to open your mind to what people are saying.
On the thorny issue of your communication style, I truly believe that the communication style of a student directly correlates to the topic they are majoring in. I majored in law and post-education my style was stilted, formal, precise. I actually write for a living now and it has been a long road to gain a flexibility to write in a way that is clear to all readers. My job involves writing practical guidance on abstruse legal and regulatory material and I have to say if you cannot get your point across clearly and unambiguously you will always meet with frustration or irritation. I would not have a job if I didn't have an eye to my readers needs.
I think Hammer has it bang on. No-one should be your editor, but be aware that you are asking your readers to operate some sort of parsing filter and much of your time if you post frequently will be spent clarifying, endlessly, what you have said. Something that is profound stays profound however it is couched. Something that is banal can't be rendered profound by selective word use, or over-use of adjectives. I don't think anyone should act as your editor MT, I think the opposite. I think you need to ease off on editing [/I]your own posts[/I]. Some sentences come off as non-sequiturs and I wonder if that is a result of too much adjusting what you've written before you click the "post" button? I could be totally wrong of course!!
Fundamentally there is nothing wrong, and everything to gain, on SR by speaking straightforwardly and simply from the heart. You've made some posters angry and upset by what is coming across as a glib dismissal of their personal pain. You are entitled to follow your own path but do bear in mind many people here have already been through the life stage you currently inhabit. I will it presume to offer suggestions on dealing with an alcoholic partner. Alcoholism is a family issue for me. But at the least you can look into the early protective action people are recommending for someone who is in their view demonstrating classic codependent traits.
I put a little "when in Rome" comment on the top. The meaning of the phrase "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" means it is polite and possibly also advantageous to abide by the customs of a society when one is a visitor (at least according to our UK Phrase Finder website :-) ). Why not follow that old proverb for a while and see where it takes you?
With all best wishes
snowie
I think everyone should remember that MT is at university. The place where ALL are encouraged to devour information, to think critically and to question orthodoxy. When you are at university doing these things is your MO. And for the student, unlike life beyond university, there is a ready made benchmark for how you are doing, in terms of grades on papers, tutor feedback, and exam results. A student performing well vis-a-vis their peers or against that benchmark will have a natural, human, tendency to be pleased with their achievements to date and to feel confident to contradict or question. MT is in this place. Her "job" is to contradict and question. I really don't think this is a reason to treat her with a lack of basic respect.
On the flip side MT though, there is a fine line between "clever" and "clever dick". The problems, the crises and the sheer tragedies other posters have taken the time to post on your threads are real. They are "some day" events for you it seems. Possible maybe? Probable maybe? You do need to open your mind to what people are saying.
On the thorny issue of your communication style, I truly believe that the communication style of a student directly correlates to the topic they are majoring in. I majored in law and post-education my style was stilted, formal, precise. I actually write for a living now and it has been a long road to gain a flexibility to write in a way that is clear to all readers. My job involves writing practical guidance on abstruse legal and regulatory material and I have to say if you cannot get your point across clearly and unambiguously you will always meet with frustration or irritation. I would not have a job if I didn't have an eye to my readers needs.
I think Hammer has it bang on. No-one should be your editor, but be aware that you are asking your readers to operate some sort of parsing filter and much of your time if you post frequently will be spent clarifying, endlessly, what you have said. Something that is profound stays profound however it is couched. Something that is banal can't be rendered profound by selective word use, or over-use of adjectives. I don't think anyone should act as your editor MT, I think the opposite. I think you need to ease off on editing [/I]your own posts[/I]. Some sentences come off as non-sequiturs and I wonder if that is a result of too much adjusting what you've written before you click the "post" button? I could be totally wrong of course!!
Fundamentally there is nothing wrong, and everything to gain, on SR by speaking straightforwardly and simply from the heart. You've made some posters angry and upset by what is coming across as a glib dismissal of their personal pain. You are entitled to follow your own path but do bear in mind many people here have already been through the life stage you currently inhabit. I will it presume to offer suggestions on dealing with an alcoholic partner. Alcoholism is a family issue for me. But at the least you can look into the early protective action people are recommending for someone who is in their view demonstrating classic codependent traits.
I put a little "when in Rome" comment on the top. The meaning of the phrase "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" means it is polite and possibly also advantageous to abide by the customs of a society when one is a visitor (at least according to our UK Phrase Finder website :-) ). Why not follow that old proverb for a while and see where it takes you?
With all best wishes
snowie
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England, UK
Posts: 257
Originally Posted by Hammer
ummmm, but, er, ah . . . I kind of meant the other way around.
[if I were going to drag into this -- not intending to] I am wondering why folks are trying to Control or Cure whatever MT is working through. She is a "Writer" whatever that means. Fine by me. I do not think I am her editor. Why do so many folks think that they are?
Just take what you want and leave the rest. She is not even posting to other folks' thread AFAIK. Some of you are chasing her down on her thread to dog her. WTF?
So she writes different and is bound and determined to try every possible f-ed up thing to try to understand What, Why, Control and Cure her guy. Have not every f-ing one of us here not the same f-ing thing -- some of FOR YEARS -- in the name of loving and devotion? Give her a freaking break. She is the same as most of us. Just sounds strange the way she writes it.
I pity the folks that have to make it through my butchered Engineer-Speak, with missing words and clumsy contexts.
[if I were going to drag into this -- not intending to] I am wondering why folks are trying to Control or Cure whatever MT is working through. She is a "Writer" whatever that means. Fine by me. I do not think I am her editor. Why do so many folks think that they are?
Just take what you want and leave the rest. She is not even posting to other folks' thread AFAIK. Some of you are chasing her down on her thread to dog her. WTF?
So she writes different and is bound and determined to try every possible f-ed up thing to try to understand What, Why, Control and Cure her guy. Have not every f-ing one of us here not the same f-ing thing -- some of FOR YEARS -- in the name of loving and devotion? Give her a freaking break. She is the same as most of us. Just sounds strange the way she writes it.
I pity the folks that have to make it through my butchered Engineer-Speak, with missing words and clumsy contexts.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
I would agree with allforcnm...I like some of the concepts of the CRAFT approach. I am not a subscriber to the "hands off my recovery" approach. I am not a 12 stepper. I do believe that family involvement is important. I also believe there is a fine and ever so subtle line. One can be loving and supportive, but one cannot get someone else to end their addiction. They must do that themselves. In CRAFT, "Partners are trained to use positive reinforcement, various communication skills and natural consequences."
The "natural consequences" part is important and also where things get hairy. Many people think that allowing these natural consequences is "tough love" and ineffective. Many people also think that giving it to the addicted individual straight is "tough love" and also ineffective. Personally, I think that " We love you, Soberlicious, but we will take your children from you if you do not get your sh*t sorted. Sh*t is not going to continue to go down like this. You're smart and capable. We believe in you. Make a choice." is an empowering, loving, no nonsense message.
But here's the rub...those that deliver the message must be willing to accept that the addicted often chooses to continue drinking/using. In the end, no one can can exact real change in anyone else. That real change ones from within. Can they facilitate? Yes, but don't be fooled by the level of influence you think you might have. In the end, it's up to them.
There's involvement and there's involvement. If I am still tying my kids shoes and cutting their meat for them past when they are capable of doing it themselves, then it becomes ineffective (and also very weird).
Addicted individuals are capable. Being over involved and trying to make choices for them is disempowering. It sends the message "I know what is best for you, I know how you should live, and I know what choices you should make." Anyone is capable of quitting if they want to. Don't forget that.
The "natural consequences" part is important and also where things get hairy. Many people think that allowing these natural consequences is "tough love" and ineffective. Many people also think that giving it to the addicted individual straight is "tough love" and also ineffective. Personally, I think that " We love you, Soberlicious, but we will take your children from you if you do not get your sh*t sorted. Sh*t is not going to continue to go down like this. You're smart and capable. We believe in you. Make a choice." is an empowering, loving, no nonsense message.
But here's the rub...those that deliver the message must be willing to accept that the addicted often chooses to continue drinking/using. In the end, no one can can exact real change in anyone else. That real change ones from within. Can they facilitate? Yes, but don't be fooled by the level of influence you think you might have. In the end, it's up to them.
There's involvement and there's involvement. If I am still tying my kids shoes and cutting their meat for them past when they are capable of doing it themselves, then it becomes ineffective (and also very weird).
Addicted individuals are capable. Being over involved and trying to make choices for them is disempowering. It sends the message "I know what is best for you, I know how you should live, and I know what choices you should make." Anyone is capable of quitting if they want to. Don't forget that.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
Maybe for some, Metallic's style is a test of how far they have come in their codependency recovery.
I too was an English/Lit major, and remember well the days of finding my voice and testing styles.
However I had viewed her style as off-topic, then realized, it was a test of codependency.
Did she come here and ask for a critique of her writing?
Is refraining from giving advice in an area where none is requested a recovery from codependency skill? It seems to me that message has been stressed on this board.
Her writing:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
I'm sure that Metallic will find the answers to her writing as it matures and she either receives pink slips or checks. Is this forum the place for that critique? I don't think so.
Metallic, I have a question to ask you. Is Hero a professor and you a student? If so, I am concerned about how that dynamic may be affecting this relationship.
I too was an English/Lit major, and remember well the days of finding my voice and testing styles.
However I had viewed her style as off-topic, then realized, it was a test of codependency.
Did she come here and ask for a critique of her writing?
Is refraining from giving advice in an area where none is requested a recovery from codependency skill? It seems to me that message has been stressed on this board.
Her writing:
You didn't cause it.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.
I'm sure that Metallic will find the answers to her writing as it matures and she either receives pink slips or checks. Is this forum the place for that critique? I don't think so.
Metallic, I have a question to ask you. Is Hero a professor and you a student? If so, I am concerned about how that dynamic may be affecting this relationship.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
I'm not so much concerned with the writing style as whether MT is an authentic person representing an authentic relationship. I see red flags and I'm not convinced that this conversation is happening in good faith.
I'm willing to be wrong! But that's what it feels like. Something feels fishy.
I'm willing to be wrong! But that's what it feels like. Something feels fishy.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester, ny
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by Florence
I'm not so much concerned with the writing style as whether MT is an authentic person representing an authentic relationship. I see red flags and I'm not convinced that this conversation is happening in good faith.
I'm willing to be wrong! But that's what it feels like. Something feels fishy.
I'm willing to be wrong! But that's what it feels like. Something feels fishy.
It's as simple as that. Funny how we're all in a bunch over her! Codependents that we are. LoL.
But seriously, she demonstrates classic Narcissistic behaviors:
*Self Aggrandizing.
*Attention seeking.
*Claiming elevated levels of personal perfection such as Empathy while demonstrating a profound lack thereof, and Intelligence beyond that of mere mortals. She trumpets her own qualities loudly and repeatedly, while at the same time advising us of her unusual and uniquely profound humility.
*Gushing, fawning praise for us (some of us, anyway
) that is clearly manipulative.*Using people as objects (she uses her boyfriend as a guinea pig for her self-involved manipulations and as a vehicle to gain attention here. She actually impresses me as aspiring to a kind of *stardom* here on this board.)
*Disinterest in any substantive self-honesty/honesty with the group while claiming to be hyper-honest
*Disinterest in any critique, self-assessment or "tough love", though she claims to want it.
*Insistence that her writing style reflects her unique soul and deepest self when, in actuality, it is ridiculous. "Sound and fury signifying nothing" It does not communicate nor does it clarify; her purpose is solely to obsfuscate, as another poster identified.
To take a quote from Neitzsche, she "muddies her waters to make them appear deep."
Her BEHAVIOURS contradict every claim she makes about herself. As Florence says, she is not participating in good faith.
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