What is a relapse
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,913
Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy 
Here's the quacking I hear (I am saying this out loud to you all to try and take away the power it has over me to make me feel guilty and act stupidly in response) when I say "I am not comfortable with you being alone with the girls bc I can't predict when you might drink and it's a safety issue"
Either indignation and being pissed off and telling me I am unreasonable OR more likely, a passive, martyr like, puppy dog look of "I understand... " and telling me it is hurting the girls but he will do whatever it takes to show that he puts them first (martyrdom). Then he paints me as unreasonable (after all it was "only 2 beers a month ago" is usually how the story goes) and I look like I AM alienating him unfairly from the girls. Who cares how it looks? You know the truth. Don't put so much emphasis on what he thinks or how he tries to make things look.
If I offer to have him stay and be there together briefly (meaning there is a limit) he says that the tension created by me is unfair to the girls and since he will put them first always he will bow out so that they aren't impacted by my toxicity. (btw, last easter he was not around bc he was at his parents house due to a family crisis and did not call the girls at all on easter after promising to be home mid day to see them) You can turn that around on him and say that YOU feel the situation will create too much tension and that you feel it is best to just not have him over.
Pretty much NO option other than, 'sure, show up when you want, do whatever you want while here with me gone and stay just long enough to play 'fun dad' and then i'll come back and act like you're a saint and be okay if you drank or ignored the girls or wrecked the house and I'll let you lurk around once I return so you can rest on the couch and be responsibility free' results in me being told I am unreasonable, unfair, uncaring (of the girls), alienating him etc... Again, who cares what he tries to make it seem like? You have the right to decide what YOU want and you have the right to decide what YOU will allow. Please, take ahold of the power you have and let go of the power you do NOT have.
Ugh.
Either indignation and being pissed off and telling me I am unreasonable OR more likely, a passive, martyr like, puppy dog look of "I understand... " and telling me it is hurting the girls but he will do whatever it takes to show that he puts them first (martyrdom). Then he paints me as unreasonable (after all it was "only 2 beers a month ago" is usually how the story goes) and I look like I AM alienating him unfairly from the girls. Who cares how it looks? You know the truth. Don't put so much emphasis on what he thinks or how he tries to make things look.
If I offer to have him stay and be there together briefly (meaning there is a limit) he says that the tension created by me is unfair to the girls and since he will put them first always he will bow out so that they aren't impacted by my toxicity. (btw, last easter he was not around bc he was at his parents house due to a family crisis and did not call the girls at all on easter after promising to be home mid day to see them) You can turn that around on him and say that YOU feel the situation will create too much tension and that you feel it is best to just not have him over.
Pretty much NO option other than, 'sure, show up when you want, do whatever you want while here with me gone and stay just long enough to play 'fun dad' and then i'll come back and act like you're a saint and be okay if you drank or ignored the girls or wrecked the house and I'll let you lurk around once I return so you can rest on the couch and be responsibility free' results in me being told I am unreasonable, unfair, uncaring (of the girls), alienating him etc... Again, who cares what he tries to make it seem like? You have the right to decide what YOU want and you have the right to decide what YOU will allow. Please, take ahold of the power you have and let go of the power you do NOT have.
Ugh.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by suki44883
I know you don't see it right now, but you are really making this harder than it has to be.
I've been reading the "Why Does He Do That?" book and I am not surprised at all to read that in court, abusers (especially those who are charming to the rest of the world and can con a con man) can make the abused look like the problem.
I do NOT want to give him fuel to use and he's already started (weeks ago) throwing around the term "parental alienation". So while I do not care what his family thinks, I DO care how he can spin things I do to paint a picture of the situation that is not real so I am being careful and deliberate for a very real purpose.
I was venting in my post earlier-- what I know I will do is offer for him to stay for a bit and then suggest we spend the rest of the day apart. I am going to stay calm and pleasant if it kills me and that will be that.
Here's the quacking I hear (I am saying this out loud to you all to try and take away the power it has over me to make me feel guilty and act stupidly in response) when I say "I am not comfortable with you being alone with the girls bc I can't predict when you might drink and it's a safety issue"
Either indignation and being pissed off and telling me I am unreasonable OR more likely, a passive, martyr like, puppy dog look of "I understand... " and telling me it is hurting the girls but he will do whatever it takes to show that he puts them first (martyrdom). Then he paints me as unreasonable (after all it was "only 2 beers a month ago" is usually how the story goes) and I look like I AM alienating him unfairly from the girls. Who cares how it looks? You know the truth. Don't put so much emphasis on what he thinks or how he tries to make things look.
If I offer to have him stay and be there together briefly (meaning there is a limit) he says that the tension created by me is unfair to the girls and since he will put them first always he will bow out so that they aren't impacted by my toxicity. (btw, last easter he was not around bc he was at his parents house due to a family crisis and did not call the girls at all on easter after promising to be home mid day to see them) You can turn that around on him and say that YOU feel the situation will create too much tension and that you feel it is best to just not have him over.
Pretty much NO option other than, 'sure, show up when you want, do whatever you want while here with me gone and stay just long enough to play 'fun dad' and then i'll come back and act like you're a saint and be okay if you drank or ignored the girls or wrecked the house and I'll let you lurk around once I return so you can rest on the couch and be responsibility free' results in me being told I am unreasonable, unfair, uncaring (of the girls), alienating him etc... Again, who cares what he tries to make it seem like? You have the right to decide what YOU want and you have the right to decide what YOU will allow. Please, take ahold of the power you have and let go of the power you do NOT have.
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: MASSACHUSETTS
Posts: 441
Originally Posted by suki44883
I know you don't see it right now, but you are really making this harder than it has to be.
I think she is covering her own and being smart (in thinking ahead) about what is going to happen once this does go to court and the custody battle begins.
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 545
WTBH, have you taken legal advice about divorce, visitation and your move to another state? Do you know exactly where you stand? Because I am sensing that he has AND he is getting information from somewhere to ensure that any divorce and custody battle is going to be long and drawn out. You know from reading PD forums that it can be brutal but they also offer some great advice about your exact situation.
I understand why you want to report him for his probation violation. Do you have evidence that he is drinking?
This is all so difficult. Children have a right to a relationship with both of their parents and the law in most places recognizes that fact. It's very fuzzy on how that is achieved when there is all this nonsense in the mix, though. Maybe you have a local DV type resource that you could call to get some pointers?
I understand why you want to report him for his probation violation. Do you have evidence that he is drinking?
This is all so difficult. Children have a right to a relationship with both of their parents and the law in most places recognizes that fact. It's very fuzzy on how that is achieved when there is all this nonsense in the mix, though. Maybe you have a local DV type resource that you could call to get some pointers?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
WTBH, have you taken legal advice about divorce, visitation and your move to another state? Do you know exactly where you stand? Because I am sensing that he has AND he is getting information from somewhere to ensure that any divorce and custody battle is going to be long and drawn out. You know from reading PD forums that it can be brutal but they also offer some great advice about your exact situation.
I understand why you want to report him for his probation violation. Do you have evidence that he is drinking?
This is all so difficult. Children have a right to a relationship with both of their parents and the law in most places recognizes that fact. It's very fuzzy on how that is achieved when there is all this nonsense in the mix, though. Maybe you have a local DV type resource that you could call to get some pointers?
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,913
Please do not agree to share a lawyer. You should each have your own counsel and they should communicate with each other. That will take a lot of this back and forth between the two of you out of the picture.
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 545
No, sharing a lawyer is a terrible idea.
Have a look online and see what information is available for your state about where you stand legally. You need information, so that you are never caught off guard with him or play into his hands and so that you can manage your lawyer.
Best advice I ever got when dealing with someone like your H in a legal situation was to ask for the stars even if you don't want them and be prepared to settle for the moon. Because he'll think he's won. And he's going to figure out what your moon is, so pretend like you don't really want it. BTW, check out NPD forums rather than BPD ones. I think you might find them more helpful.
Have a look online and see what information is available for your state about where you stand legally. You need information, so that you are never caught off guard with him or play into his hands and so that you can manage your lawyer.
Best advice I ever got when dealing with someone like your H in a legal situation was to ask for the stars even if you don't want them and be prepared to settle for the moon. Because he'll think he's won. And he's going to figure out what your moon is, so pretend like you don't really want it. BTW, check out NPD forums rather than BPD ones. I think you might find them more helpful.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by keepinon
not to hijack thread...but what do you think is differnce betwewen a slip in early recovery and full blown relapse?
I think semantics are too often used as an excuse to not accept the seriousness and full responsibility of drinking again.
I either drink again, or I don't, end of story. If I drink, I am not in recovery.
It's been my experience over the years since being in AA that you're emotionally drunk a good 60-90 days before you drink again. That certainly applied to my situation in 1990 when I started drinking again.
I've seen a 'slip' kill someone, and that's why I despise the term.
He drank once, once after being sober a period of time, mixed it with methadone, and ended up dead.
I've also seen people 'slip', and they just cannot get any amount of sober time at all after that. They are in and out and in and out of AA for years.
Bottom line is the alcoholic has to want recovery above anything else, and put in the work to maintain that recovery.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
I am stuck on this one-- not that my needs aren't important-- I am stuck bc I don't want him alone with the girls. I don't trust him at all. It makes me anxious thinking about it. He has PROVEN time and time again that he can't control (or chooses not to) the urge to drink even when he's alone with them and KNOWS better.
So, I'm dreading the conversation of "either see them with me around or not at all". And since I have no legal right to say this right now it may turn into a fight.
Of course, he KNOWS he is breaking bail by drinking and I have proof of that and I could call and report him and that would solve the visitation alone problem pretty easily I'd guess. I'd hoped to not deal with this before the trial and to instead let the judge and lawyers deal with it and him on that date but maybe I ought to just make that call and start the ball rolling...
Ugh.
Can you arrange to drop the girls off with his mom and let him visit together at her place? Prearrange a set time for picking them up.
I am divorced (twice) and have had to deal with visitation schedules for many years. In my recent divorce, (from my alcoholic) I had the lawyer add a clause to the divorce decree that there is to be no drinking around our children.
It is up to me to enforce that, however. So far, it is not an issue.
Alcoholics are great at manipulating, blame-shifting and throwing guilt trips. However, it has been my experience that there is little follow-through. If you tell the A that visitation will happen on _____ date, for ____ hours (without your being present) they often dont follow through.
Alcoholics dont want to take time to be responsible and actually parent without the benefit of manipulating the other parent. Based on my experience.
So, I'm dreading the conversation of "either see them with me around or not at all". And since I have no legal right to say this right now it may turn into a fight.
Of course, he KNOWS he is breaking bail by drinking and I have proof of that and I could call and report him and that would solve the visitation alone problem pretty easily I'd guess. I'd hoped to not deal with this before the trial and to instead let the judge and lawyers deal with it and him on that date but maybe I ought to just make that call and start the ball rolling...
Ugh.
Can you arrange to drop the girls off with his mom and let him visit together at her place? Prearrange a set time for picking them up.
I am divorced (twice) and have had to deal with visitation schedules for many years. In my recent divorce, (from my alcoholic) I had the lawyer add a clause to the divorce decree that there is to be no drinking around our children.
It is up to me to enforce that, however. So far, it is not an issue.
Alcoholics are great at manipulating, blame-shifting and throwing guilt trips. However, it has been my experience that there is little follow-through. If you tell the A that visitation will happen on _____ date, for ____ hours (without your being present) they often dont follow through.
Alcoholics dont want to take time to be responsible and actually parent without the benefit of manipulating the other parent. Based on my experience.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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I'm not clear as to what it is you are seeking in a custody dispute.. prevent visitation? Is he threatening taking full custody? Maybe I didn't read the full story in your posts.
In my experience working with families who are in these disputes, what I tell the moms is the judge has heard it all, seen it all etc. etc. Your situation isn't one they haven't already seen before (I say this to decrease your anxiety because I read lots of anxiety in your posts.. rightly so because you are dealing with a lot). And a good family law attorney knows how stressful this is and should be able to guide you. Personally, I wouldn't make any calls to get the ball rolling until you have consulted with the attorney first. Seems like it would compound your stress if you started the parole violation stuff.
In my experience working with families who are in these disputes, what I tell the moms is the judge has heard it all, seen it all etc. etc. Your situation isn't one they haven't already seen before (I say this to decrease your anxiety because I read lots of anxiety in your posts.. rightly so because you are dealing with a lot). And a good family law attorney knows how stressful this is and should be able to guide you. Personally, I wouldn't make any calls to get the ball rolling until you have consulted with the attorney first. Seems like it would compound your stress if you started the parole violation stuff.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
I guess in a custody dispute what I want is for him to have supervised visitation until a time he has demonstrated he is capable of sobriety for more than a few days. I do NOT trust him alone with the girls bc I have no way to know, with proof when he has and hasn't been drinking and I highly doubt a court is going to say "Oh you're telling me you think he was drinking so sure, we'll go with that".
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