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What is a relapse

Old 04-22-2011, 09:14 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy View Post
Here's the quacking I hear (I am saying this out loud to you all to try and take away the power it has over me to make me feel guilty and act stupidly in response) when I say "I am not comfortable with you being alone with the girls bc I can't predict when you might drink and it's a safety issue"

Either indignation and being pissed off and telling me I am unreasonable OR more likely, a passive, martyr like, puppy dog look of "I understand... " and telling me it is hurting the girls but he will do whatever it takes to show that he puts them first (martyrdom). Then he paints me as unreasonable (after all it was "only 2 beers a month ago" is usually how the story goes) and I look like I AM alienating him unfairly from the girls. Who cares how it looks? You know the truth. Don't put so much emphasis on what he thinks or how he tries to make things look.

If I offer to have him stay and be there together briefly (meaning there is a limit) he says that the tension created by me is unfair to the girls and since he will put them first always he will bow out so that they aren't impacted by my toxicity. (btw, last easter he was not around bc he was at his parents house due to a family crisis and did not call the girls at all on easter after promising to be home mid day to see them) You can turn that around on him and say that YOU feel the situation will create too much tension and that you feel it is best to just not have him over.

Pretty much NO option other than, 'sure, show up when you want, do whatever you want while here with me gone and stay just long enough to play 'fun dad' and then i'll come back and act like you're a saint and be okay if you drank or ignored the girls or wrecked the house and I'll let you lurk around once I return so you can rest on the couch and be responsibility free' results in me being told I am unreasonable, unfair, uncaring (of the girls), alienating him etc... Again, who cares what he tries to make it seem like? You have the right to decide what YOU want and you have the right to decide what YOU will allow. Please, take ahold of the power you have and let go of the power you do NOT have.

Ugh.
I know you don't see it right now, but you are really making this harder than it has to be.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:28 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by suki44883 View Post
I know you don't see it right now, but you are really making this harder than it has to be.
IMHO since I don't want to share custody and have him have unsupervised visitation once we are divorced, I am trying right now to behave in a way that will not paint ME as the bad guy.

I've been reading the "Why Does He Do That?" book and I am not surprised at all to read that in court, abusers (especially those who are charming to the rest of the world and can con a con man) can make the abused look like the problem.

I do NOT want to give him fuel to use and he's already started (weeks ago) throwing around the term "parental alienation". So while I do not care what his family thinks, I DO care how he can spin things I do to paint a picture of the situation that is not real so I am being careful and deliberate for a very real purpose.

I was venting in my post earlier-- what I know I will do is offer for him to stay for a bit and then suggest we spend the rest of the day apart. I am going to stay calm and pleasant if it kills me and that will be that.

Here's the quacking I hear (I am saying this out loud to you all to try and take away the power it has over me to make me feel guilty and act stupidly in response) when I say "I am not comfortable with you being alone with the girls bc I can't predict when you might drink and it's a safety issue"
Either indignation and being pissed off and telling me I am unreasonable OR more likely, a passive, martyr like, puppy dog look of "I understand... " and telling me it is hurting the girls but he will do whatever it takes to show that he puts them first (martyrdom). Then he paints me as unreasonable (after all it was "only 2 beers a month ago" is usually how the story goes) and I look like I AM alienating him unfairly from the girls. Who cares how it looks? You know the truth. Don't put so much emphasis on what he thinks or how he tries to make things look.
I can't change what he thinks and don't want to- it only matters bc of what I wrote above. The 'Why Does He Do That?' book nailed it and describes my H to a T.
If I offer to have him stay and be there together briefly (meaning there is a limit) he says that the tension created by me is unfair to the girls and since he will put them first always he will bow out so that they aren't impacted by my toxicity. (btw, last easter he was not around bc he was at his parents house due to a family crisis and did not call the girls at all on easter after promising to be home mid day to see them) You can turn that around on him and say that YOU feel the situation will create too much tension and that you feel it is best to just not have him over.
Maybe in normal person land that would work but if I say that that would be like adding fuel to a fire. I've done that many many times and it turns into him getting snappier and nastier. I know what he's saying is untrue and I won't bother to defend myself to him bc it makes it worse. BUT I do not wan to act in a way that gives him room to say this and to document it as an ex of why the problem is me for court.
Pretty much NO option other than, 'sure, show up when you want, do whatever you want while here with me gone and stay just long enough to play 'fun dad' and then i'll come back and act like you're a saint and be okay if you drank or ignored the girls or wrecked the house and I'll let you lurk around once I return so you can rest on the couch and be responsibility free' results in me being told I am unreasonable, unfair, uncaring (of the girls), alienating him etc... Again, who cares what he tries to make it seem like? You have the right to decide what YOU want and you have the right to decide what YOU will allow. Please, take ahold of the power you have and let go of the power you do NOT have.
I care bc of what he can do with his lies/spinning to effect the outcome of custody. Being careful is a smart move for me right now. See above explanation.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:46 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by suki44883 View Post
I know you don't see it right now, but you are really making this harder than it has to be.
I honestly do not get you. Why would you say that to someone. She is doing just fine and what exactly is she "making harder than it has to be". By the way, do you have young kids or have ever had to deal with a custody battle over young kids?

I think she is covering her own and being smart (in thinking ahead) about what is going to happen once this does go to court and the custody battle begins.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:44 AM
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WTBH, have you taken legal advice about divorce, visitation and your move to another state? Do you know exactly where you stand? Because I am sensing that he has AND he is getting information from somewhere to ensure that any divorce and custody battle is going to be long and drawn out. You know from reading PD forums that it can be brutal but they also offer some great advice about your exact situation.

I understand why you want to report him for his probation violation. Do you have evidence that he is drinking?

This is all so difficult. Children have a right to a relationship with both of their parents and the law in most places recognizes that fact. It's very fuzzy on how that is achieved when there is all this nonsense in the mix, though. Maybe you have a local DV type resource that you could call to get some pointers?
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:52 AM
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WTBH, have you taken legal advice about divorce, visitation and your move to another state? Do you know exactly where you stand? Because I am sensing that he has AND he is getting information from somewhere to ensure that any divorce and custody battle is going to be long and drawn out. You know from reading PD forums that it can be brutal but they also offer some great advice about your exact situation.
I called a family lawyer I was referred to by my employee assistance program. Still waiting for a call back. H told me today that he wants to do this amicably and "share" a lawyer. I'd like to trust him but don't feel that I can. H's mom works in a law office (she is a secretary but seems to think she belongs on the supreme court). I've heard her in the past give him advice about how to "protect" himself (against possible drunk driving charges, against possible disciplinary action for drinking AT WORK) so I am sure she's got all kinds of advice for him about how to deal with me right now... This is why I tried to put off doing this for as long as possible. This is going to be a long uphill battle I can just see it.


I understand why you want to report him for his probation violation. Do you have evidence that he is drinking?
Yes. I took photos of the places I found the recent hidden alcohol with a date stamp on the camera. And he admitted it in front of me, my mother, and his family.

This is all so difficult. Children have a right to a relationship with both of their parents and the law in most places recognizes that fact. It's very fuzzy on how that is achieved when there is all this nonsense in the mix, though. Maybe you have a local DV type resource that you could call to get some pointers?
That's a really good idea-- thanks!
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:55 AM
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Please do not agree to share a lawyer. You should each have your own counsel and they should communicate with each other. That will take a lot of this back and forth between the two of you out of the picture.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:00 PM
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No, sharing a lawyer is a terrible idea.

Have a look online and see what information is available for your state about where you stand legally. You need information, so that you are never caught off guard with him or play into his hands and so that you can manage your lawyer.

Best advice I ever got when dealing with someone like your H in a legal situation was to ask for the stars even if you don't want them and be prepared to settle for the moon. Because he'll think he's won. And he's going to figure out what your moon is, so pretend like you don't really want it. BTW, check out NPD forums rather than BPD ones. I think you might find them more helpful.
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by keepinon View Post
not to hijack thread...but what do you think is differnce betwewen a slip in early recovery and full blown relapse?
Slips are for banana peels, as in "I slipped on a banana peel."

I think semantics are too often used as an excuse to not accept the seriousness and full responsibility of drinking again.

I either drink again, or I don't, end of story. If I drink, I am not in recovery.

It's been my experience over the years since being in AA that you're emotionally drunk a good 60-90 days before you drink again. That certainly applied to my situation in 1990 when I started drinking again.

I've seen a 'slip' kill someone, and that's why I despise the term.

He drank once, once after being sober a period of time, mixed it with methadone, and ended up dead.

I've also seen people 'slip', and they just cannot get any amount of sober time at all after that. They are in and out and in and out of AA for years.

Bottom line is the alcoholic has to want recovery above anything else, and put in the work to maintain that recovery.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:42 PM
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I am stuck on this one-- not that my needs aren't important-- I am stuck bc I don't want him alone with the girls. I don't trust him at all. It makes me anxious thinking about it. He has PROVEN time and time again that he can't control (or chooses not to) the urge to drink even when he's alone with them and KNOWS better.

So, I'm dreading the conversation of "either see them with me around or not at all". And since I have no legal right to say this right now it may turn into a fight.

Of course, he KNOWS he is breaking bail by drinking and I have proof of that and I could call and report him and that would solve the visitation alone problem pretty easily I'd guess. I'd hoped to not deal with this before the trial and to instead let the judge and lawyers deal with it and him on that date but maybe I ought to just make that call and start the ball rolling...

Ugh.


Can you arrange to drop the girls off with his mom and let him visit together at her place? Prearrange a set time for picking them up.

I am divorced (twice) and have had to deal with visitation schedules for many years. In my recent divorce, (from my alcoholic) I had the lawyer add a clause to the divorce decree that there is to be no drinking around our children.

It is up to me to enforce that, however. So far, it is not an issue.

Alcoholics are great at manipulating, blame-shifting and throwing guilt trips. However, it has been my experience that there is little follow-through. If you tell the A that visitation will happen on _____ date, for ____ hours (without your being present) they often dont follow through.

Alcoholics dont want to take time to be responsible and actually parent without the benefit of manipulating the other parent. Based on my experience.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:58 PM
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I'm not clear as to what it is you are seeking in a custody dispute.. prevent visitation? Is he threatening taking full custody? Maybe I didn't read the full story in your posts.

In my experience working with families who are in these disputes, what I tell the moms is the judge has heard it all, seen it all etc. etc. Your situation isn't one they haven't already seen before (I say this to decrease your anxiety because I read lots of anxiety in your posts.. rightly so because you are dealing with a lot). And a good family law attorney knows how stressful this is and should be able to guide you. Personally, I wouldn't make any calls to get the ball rolling until you have consulted with the attorney first. Seems like it would compound your stress if you started the parole violation stuff.
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:12 AM
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I guess in a custody dispute what I want is for him to have supervised visitation until a time he has demonstrated he is capable of sobriety for more than a few days. I do NOT trust him alone with the girls bc I have no way to know, with proof when he has and hasn't been drinking and I highly doubt a court is going to say "Oh you're telling me you think he was drinking so sure, we'll go with that".
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