courage2

Quitting Facebook is always a good decision, imo.

Shutting up is almost always a good decision, imo. I don't make it nearly often enough. Very little of what I say either shouldn't be said, doesn't need to be said, or couldn't be said better another time.

I feel badly now because you wrote earlier Well, I'll weigh in a little. Since you gave a page #, I looked it up. That's a personal story, and I don't like 'em. They say you're not supposed to compare in AA, so why have all these? But the sentiment isn't just in that story --- I've actually quoted (!! next I'll be a thumper!!) a similar passage to you, from Step 10 in the 12 & 12. That version makes sense to me: "every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us."

I like the sentiment of the Step 10 quote. It doesn't convey to me that the "something wrong with us" is a shortcoming or a fault -- but the very fact of our disturbance *is* something wrong/amiss/askew. We have no power to change the fault in another, but we do have power to address the disturbances we experience as a result of those faults.

Re "everything happens for a reason" -- I also can't stomach it. However, re this: "laying the blame on God for all things that happen? Nope, not having it. Input is most definitely appreciated on this point because I get really upset Every Single Time it comes up. I know the part about getting upset is all on me, but thinking it's wrong? Am I wrong about that?" -- I think you're wrong to think it's remotely within your scope (or that of the person in the BB, or anyone else) to be right or wrong about what is or isn't within the purview of the gods. Think anything you want, but why make a big deal of what you think on a topic where you'll never know the answer and the answer isn't actionable? Stick to your own plain of existence, do your best here.

Obladi

Thanks for responding so quickly, Courage. I was having a little breakdown there, so it was good to "hear" a friendly and non-judgmental voice just now.

I agree with you on the fb thing, but there are a handful of people I love that almost exclusively "communicate" via that platform. I was toying with quitting altogether, but your post prompted me to think there's an acceptable middle ground. "Unfriend" just about everyone except those with whom I feel a meaningful personal bond. That's happening tonight.

I don't know why you feel badly?

The stories are fine. I don't dislike them, but I dislike when people bandy about concepts, words and phrases like they are the program, but they're not. You know. And now that I'm writing this, I think part of what irks me so is that any number of program folks have wanted to set me right on this; "You think too much. You're getting in your own way. I'm only telling it like my sponsor told me." To your point, this doesn't make me wrong, but my reaction to it speaks to my own unnecessary internal disturbance.

I'm impressed with your thumping - nice job. However, I don't much care for the 12 & 12 either. Bill got kind of harsh as he went along and, in my opinion, expanded on things that were perfectly well-put in the Big Book and didn't benefit from expansion. That's just my opinion, of course. (For now - who knows what tomorrow or next year might disclose?)

So I'll see your 10th step in the 12 & 12 and raise you a return to the BB, this time at step 10. "Watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear...Love and tolerance of others is our code." I'm on board with that. I think just about all of my "disturbances" fall into one of those categories. With my mom, I was selfish - I was only thinking of my own joy and not at all about how disclosing her business might impact her. With the house manager thing, I think it was fear. When she used me as an example, it brought up my fear of doing wrong things and my suggestion was perhaps at least as much about deflecting that as it was well-intentioned.

Do you believe literally, Courage that any thing that disturbs me points to something I must address within myself? I think I can now believe that to be true for my reactions to people who have personally harmed me. I need to learn to better handle the fear I feel around my childhood abuser, but I now know that can't happen until I'm really well-grounded in my sobriety. But I also feel disturbed by some people's hypocritical and (to me) completely irrational (not to mention unscientific) responses to current events that aren't appropriate to discuss on SR. It seems to me that saying my inner disturbance points to something that's not right about me somehow detracts from my humanity. If I sit in my cave and say "None of that cruelty or inhumanity impacts me," doesn't that mean I actually am a disturbed human?

I don't have any idea what's within the purview of the gods and by no means intended to give that impression. All of it is within Her/His/Their domain, of course. I have no issue with that and am happy to let that be. Ying/Yang and all of that. What bothers me is when other people explain away bad things by saying things like, "nothing happens by mistake." Well, sure, but that doesn't make killing people, supporting economic injustice, rape, or just being crappy to other people "God's will." The big deal doesn't have anything to do with things I don't understand about the mysteries of the universe - it has everything to do with copping out and using the "God's will" card. Maybe that's not actionable either. Or maybe it IS actionable and I'm really upset with myself for not taking action to try to address something that is so far beyond my reach that taking the action would feel like beating my head against a wall. I don't know. It's circular.

Obladi

When I said "that might change," I meant not that other people might be persuaded to have the same opinion I do - I meant that my opinion might change with time.
Oy vey.

courage2

a) I like this topic, having always been a person who was determined to arrive at a resolution (usually mine), having learned a lot from thinking on it myself. b) I'm avoiding my job.

No worries, it's not on you to know. The disturbance is "in me" and I understand it and this convo helped me understand it.

I believe points to something, literally, yeah. Don't always know it in the instant. Hence moral inventory, if we're sticking with AA -- from which I learned a lot. "Must"? No, but I don't think AA says that. Seldom -- ever? says "must." But you'd be more at peace, and therefore imo less likely to drink if you focused on your ever-broadening self.

Actually, for me, not "within...of course." I'm within my own domain and that's the self. Review Robby the Robot, maybe? I learned a lot from him.

Back to our beginning. "Bothers me... when other people." Let 'em go. Maybe they're silly, or need that solace or blame. Not on your pillow, to quote an SR friend whose expression I always return to -- you know who you are

courage2

What'd'I do, drop a neutron bomb on the thread?

Hawkeye13

Nope just finals week for me so Uber busy but will catch up soon. . .

Cosima11

Hey O, I’ll just briefly comment on one of your points (about noting happening by mistake). Do you watch Black Mirror? It’s pretty trivial compared to real tragedy or abuse, but there’s an episode about people finding love in an artificial simulation, having to abide by pre-programmed rules. After each heartbreak or mistake the computer infuriatingly says “everything happens for a reason� even if it seems nothing could be further than the truth. But in the end it becomes clear everything actually did happen for an ultimately beneficial reason.
The computer or “God� in this scenario can’t predict or pre-determine the individual outcome, but it can guide people onto the path they’re meant to take. I think that’s where religion differentiates from spirituality.. There is no human God figure punishing or rewarding us or forcing us to do anything, there are only universal structures of order that cannot be escaped.

SnazzyDresser

Maybe everything happens for a raisin.

Obladi

Hey, Courage. The bomb happened in this house, not lobbed by you as far as I can tell, but what do I know? I've meant to go re-read Robbie's stuff (some of it I never read because it was above my brain grade at the time). Funny thing - I remember reading his early posts in the Rational Recovery threads, and how intrigued I was by his style. So yeah, that's at least two suggestions that I go read him, so I think I'll heed the advice. As far as the domain of the gods, I guess I don't understand (nor maybe do I need to) what it means to be within one's own domain but not also within His/Hers/Theirs. For now, I'm back to my original place of definitively knowing (thinking) that God is so massive that there's no way I can comprehend Him/Her/Them. Easiest thing for me to do is to accept that I don't understand and to leave it at that, knowing (believing) that God is within me and also in everything and everyone that surrounds me. Omnipresence is a thing.

Cos, I read about your trek over at Cow's place. Was going to comment there, then reminded myself of this partial verbal fast I've embarked on. Had to stop myself from posting on a couple of Newcomer's thread as well. What came up for me through that little exercise was, "I want to belong." No doubt time will reveal more. Anyhow, I am so glad to "hear" your voice ringing with optimism, even for those things that may not work out the way you wanted them to. Hugs, girl.

SoDear, yours was one of those Newcomer's threads. Congratulations on your hard-won and really well-deserved year. You worked so hard for that accomplishment! I really hope that things are just a wee bit less rocky for you in this coming year.

Ok, the neutron bomb. When we last left our protagonist, she'd heard this message (once again!) about her words and actions upsetting others. This was painful, evoking self-reflection and legit soul-searching about what to "do." The task was to shut the **** up.

Scene: O's room. She's done with work for the day and has only enough energy now to lay on her bed in the dark browsing the internet on her phone. House Manager enters.

"Hey, I just wanted to let you know there's a house meeting at 9:05 and to assure you it's not about you. It's about Suzie and how people are feeling right now because of what she did. (Suzie's done a lot of things, I think - what does that mean, 'what she did?') Yeah, Suzie struck up a pen pal relationship with this guy who's in prison for [insert really bad stuff]. And a letter came to this house today from him. (!!). Some of the women are really freaked out, so we're going to talk about it as a group." "Now, I also wanted to talk a little bit about what happened last night. I feel, and I'm not the only one, that you think you know better than anyone else. It just really made me angry that you were telling me how I should handle things when I'm the house manager (wasn't, I think - I was actually communicating with a house member as she started her share with, "I don't usually share because I'm the manager, but... ok") But I know I shouldn't have lashed out at you in a group like that - I should've taken you aside. So I apologize for my part in that." Ok, thanks for that, and I apologize for my part as well. She continued on to reiterate that she's not the only one who thinks I think I know better, and I protest that's really unfair - how am I supposed to live and be comfortable in this house when I know people are holding grudges and ascribing suspect motives to me? She responds that maybe it would be a good idea for people to tell me directly (yes!) and maybe it would be a good idea for us to have a house meeting so everyone could have their say on this as a group (ummm, that sounds absolutely dreadful), would you be ok with that? I guess so? Sure. "Well, how about this - why don't you sleep on it and then we can talk more?" At this point, I'm crying and confused and defeated, I say ok. "Do you want to skip out on the house meeting tonight?" No, that's ok. I'll come, I just won't say anything.

House meeting in the living room; eight women in the room + owner on Zoom. They talk about Suzie's correspondence with this inmate and how it impacted them, particularly the letter coming to the house. Suzie smirks. Suzie says all manner of bs. I keep my mouth shut. House manager then says, "Ok, now I want to talk about O." (wait, what? ok, here we go) "I feel this way about her... and when you become the house manager, you can do whatever you want, but in the meantime, I'm doing the best I can. Can other people speak up now to talk about how they feel?" Awkward silence. Minnie speaks up, "O, I don't have any problems with you. I like being around the house when you're around. And if I have any problems with you, I'll just tell you." Thank you! "My only concern is that I really want you to have a good connection with AA for your own happiness." (fair enough) Silence. "Terry, do you want to speak?" "Ok, so I want to tell you that you made me feel really bad when you said this thing the other day - it made me feel like you think I'm doing a bad job." I'm sorry you feel that way, but I didn't make you feel bad - you did that. That thing you said I said is not what I said. I wasn't in any way questioning what you do or don't do. "So and the other thing is I feel like you think you have to babysit because you sat with me the other night when I was feeling anxious." (whoa) Terry, I wasn't babysitting. I was just sitting with you to sit with you! "Ok, does anybody else want to say anything? I don't want O to think it's just me and Terry that have a problem with this." Suzie brings up an incident from the grocery store where she was embarrassed in front of her coworker because of something I did. (Insert clarifying words from me about what actually happened.) "O, I think you're not hearing us. You're not absorbing what we're trying to tell you. You said other people have said this to you, so I know I'm not making it up." (Fully humiliated, confused, upset... I say nothing.) And... scene.

To be continued right after this break.

Obladi

So at the end of that meeting, house owner said, "I feel like I can really relate to you, O. Hearing that you had a suggestion or comment for each person's share last night - even though it was good suggestions and comments - tells me that you probably need to check your own motives before you speak. Are you wanting to fix someone else's issues? Are you helping in a co-dependent way? Do you just like the sound of your own voice? I'm only saying this because I had similar struggles. I know you're coming from a good place and how confusing all of this might be. I congratulate you for sitting through this. Some other people would have just walked out, and have. Something weird is going on between you and house manager, so we'll need to talk, but not tonight. Sleep on it, and if you want to call me tomorrow or any time, I'm here."

Yesterday I got up and finished up working on those two overdue projects. I worked hard all day, was helpful to a couple of "my" new people, and they both said, "I'm so glad you're back!" Nice to have some affirmation for employing my good qualities in an appropriate way. House manager told me she was under a lot of stress, having nothing to do with me, and she was just going to keep our communication at the level of house business for now. I said I was sorry for her stress and ok to the limited conversation thing. Told her I'd written about it as well. That was that.

After finishing work, I sent a text to my sponsor and to the house owner, asking each of them if we could talk. Met with Daniel the tiger and hashed through all of this (he thought the house meeting situation was bizarre and poorly implemented and misguided), and it was helpful because I was able to identify all of the feelings I was experiencing are the feelings that have led me to drink in the past. Out of control, confusion, trying my damndest to do right and getting flak for it, feeling misunderstood and "other," loneliness, and just plain... I dunno, grief? I didn't feel good talking about all of that, but it was helpful in cementing my resolve to get through this rough part and learn the lesson I need to learn.

Called the house owner next. She asked me if I could see what people were saying to me and I thanked her sincerely for asking. I said that the house manager hadn't asked me, she had just told me that I wasn't hearing. So we talked about it and she said some things that made a lot of sense, other things that were incorrect assumptions, and left me with a compliment about the growth she was seeing in me* and kudos for calling her.

Next up! Called my sponsor, by this time a pile of crying ground beef, not quite in the fetal position but close to that in my mind. Told her of the events and she was appropriately sympathetic (what a relief) but also wanted to be sure I could see my own part in all of this (I can). We talked about my verbal fast and she wasn't sure that was such a great idea, but I told her I really think I need to do that, to watch for my responses (like the house owner suggested), my feelings when I hold my tongue. Then we talked about sponsorship, and that I am really really not trying to be confrontational about all of this stuff - there are just things that irk me because I truly don't understand them. So when I'm talking about what I think about some concept or AAism, it might sound like a debate, but really, it's me trying to understand. And that I don't think I even knew that's what it was until today, until it was coming out of my mouth. I asked if she thought we should continue our relationship and she wanted to know what I thought. I said that I didn't want to be a pain in her butt, that I need to be myself and I know that can be irritating. She said "I can handle that, as long as you are really trying, I know you have to find your own way. So I'm not going anywhere - let's keep going."

And I cried some more.
Out of exhaustion.
Out of relief.
Out of sadness that middlest doesn't want to talk with me right now.
Out of loneliness.
Out of the feeling of being truly loved.

This morning, I sent a text to the house owner thanking her for talking and reporting that I was going to continue on with this sponsor. And I sent a text message to my sponsor saying it was suggested that I work the steps again; what were her thoughts? She thinks that's a great idea and will be in touch today.

Headache is raging, but I'm as at peace as I can be for now. It's not good or bad, it just is. I'm paying attention but not clinging to any of it, my dear Grympt.

p.s. Mom sent me her own apology in response to mine. She called me yesterday morning to make sure I'd seen it, and I said, "I did and thank you, but it was completely unnecessary."

* Can I just say how condescending it is for someone to congratulate you on your "growth" when they don't even know you? They don't realize you're exercising life skills you had in the first place? Ok, I told you.

Grymt

It's difficult. If i had to process that it would help me to remember it is an opportunity to recognise the arising, and eventual passing of my self-cherishing, (while others, whether they know it or not (which is their business) are simlarly suffering). It helps to relax and just let the flow of feelings happen. Be happy.

Obladi

Thanks, luv.

Obladi

Lol, Snazz
When I remove myself from vebal quarantine maybe we could start a Recovery is Pun thread. Or you could do it without me, since you just started it!

Gore will be revealed in time.

fini

ooof O, that whole thing, house and mewetings and women and manager and owner, sounds just so bloody INTENSE!
i don't understand the simplest things....like: why on earth would others get upset and a meeting be required because someone got a letter to the house? where else would she get it since that is where she lives?
i can understand folks might be concerned about the pen palship, but a meeting to dissect this as a group??
i am using this as example of my non-getting-it.
is the idea that "we" need to learn how to accept feedback, how to "hear", no matter what? to further some kind of interaction skills that are hopefully beneficial? to learn how not to react from feeling attacked and instead take pause and listen?

Fusion

O, I do hope you're gaining benefit from this Sober Living home. I don't understand how it works though, so please enlighten me, what are you supposed to learn there (that you don't already know) to stop you from saying "f-it" and drinking in the future?

Obladi

Hey Tats,

The brochure basically says that living here will help me to prepare for life in society via camaraderie and the 12 steps.

You can bet your life I asked the same question you just did, almost verbatim. No one ever answered, aside from giving me a definition of what a sober living house was, but that wasn't my question. Really, now that I'm here, I find that the reality is that I'm in this constant physical reminder space, and that's helpful. In addition, middlest would be very upset if I went home now and I need to do my best not to damage that relationship any further. I mean, I don't "have to," but I dearly want to minimize her angst.

Obladi

I know, right?

Others got upset because this guy hired hitmen to do his crimes, so it doesn't really matter that HE is in jail. However, I would think there was some form of motivation for him taking those hits out and I'd guess that he wouldn't target the nice young lady who is writing him, nor her roommates. However, other women here felt much more threatened, and I respect that. Did it have to be handled as a house meeting? I don't think so, but I don't run the show here.

I'm not sure that the manager and owner's thoughts were all that organized. I suspect that the manager was thinking something along the lines of, "I've had to speak with Suzie countless times already. Maybe if she hears it from more people all at once, it will actually make impact." In regard to me? When she floated the idea her reasoning was that all of us are in early recovery and most of us don't do a good job of being assertive with other people. Hashing out the O issues in a group might be a good exercise.

Why she decided on the spur of the moment to turn her attention to me after the Suzie discussion is a mystery. If I were to guess, I'd put my money on "I'm already on a roll, so I might as well get this out there right now so I don't have to feel anxiety about doing it at a later time."

Obladi

I'm really uncomfortable about the possibility of future meetings focusing on one house member. Especially because you guys and Daniel and my sponsor are all in agreement that this situation was whack.

Have to think on what I'll do and/or say if it happens again.

Obladi

I did watch the first season and maybe the second of Black Mirror. Very memorable, so of course I remember the episode you reference.

The way you describe fate or order is how I understand God, much as I don't understand. I guess it's easier for me to refute what I think God is not. I also agree there is really no use to try to understand. Sponsor and I talked about this very thing yesterday and she explained that believing that God has a plan and literally everything that happens is part of that plan gives her comfort. I can't refute that. That's her belief. I don't happen to agree, but I don't know. And if it works for her, then I'm glad.

I'm also glad that you and I seem to have a similar understanding (or lack thereof). That's comforting for me.

fini

yeah, the focus on one member would be out of my comfort zone, too. and not in that positive “growth” way, but more in line with seeing someone ganged-up on. but if you were to suggest anything different, you’d likely be seen as thinking you know better
i can see the benefit of having a one-year sober person as manager, but that does not give her qualifications to basically run a group-counseling-kinda-thingie. if and when things get out of control occasionally, or someone ends up in big pain, there is nobody there really equipped to help that person find solid ground again...
...hm.....maybe that is part of the “plan”? that each of the residents actually has stability in a sober environment and has to sort out and find their own way to be with themselves no matter what?