Does Society Hate Alcoholics?
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I think that's a very interesting question, because no matter what we may think about what society at large thinks of us, we are still part of society, and must carry on social interactions, humans being a highly social species. Few people live self-sufficiently in caves, with no social interaction.
Society, of course, is a broad term, and there are many different societies, and sub-segments of society. But let's take what we might call American society, as that is what I am most familiar with.
On one hand, there is a stigma attached: the image of the person who, seemingly like a child, is said not to be able to control their impulses, or 'delay gratification'. Curiously, this is often pointed out by people with sufficient economic means not to have had many occasions in which to delay their gratifications. Thus the image of the inner city and 'fast kicks', living for the moment, and the romanticization of danger and criminality that one might find in certain rough parts of town, such as here, in Baltimore. But one sees this in rural areas as well; it is somehow ‘cool’ for men to be tough, and part of this often involves the ability to down shots of cheap whiskey without gagging, at least in movies. Then there is the rich kid gone bad: off to college with a hefty trust fund, parents historically absent either physically or emotionally, or conversely present and engaged, but unable to stop the course of events. So here I see more stigma.
But on the other hand, it is also glamorized. In college, it is popular to boast about having survived this or that binge, and for others to talk about how they nursed a friend back to 'health' after a rough night; it enables one person to try on the role of Billy-bad-ass, and the other person the role of rescuer/care-giver, and as such, this game is very popular in letting younger people rehearse roles they may later take up on a more regular basis. In adult years, the same roles might be again played in AA, or with a therapist; the same ‘game’ with different actors.
Even in adult life, there is much social banter about having had ‘a few too many’, as if such ordeals are a kind of badge of honor, a sign of having rolled with the punches, so to speak.
Then we have those on a professional/celebrity or historic level.
Among writers and artists, there are countless examples of alcoholism: Ernest Hemingway, Tennessee Williams, Edgar Allen Poe, Jackson Pollock, and one could go on and on, not even to mention musicians.
Then we have the pop-celebrity level; stars of perhaps less ‘talent’ but greater mass appeal, and the tabloid attention they garner, in which rehab seems fashionable, something any troubled politician or ailing celebrity does in a jam, something between a spa and a rite of passage, a soft mea culpa.
And of course there are many other examples, but I would say the image is mixed, and varies by the group looking at the situation: among those of Islamic faith, or strict Baptists, alcohol is generally seen as something that one abstains from 100%...among other groups, the image of it and its relative dangers and benefits varies.
But you raised an excellent question, I'm curious to see how sociologists and those in social psychology weigh in on the matter; I have read some books on the topic, but it certainly is one I’d like to explore more.
We may not care what society thinks to the extent it impacts our self esteem and our sobriety, but we would be foolish not to acknowledge that we are part of and must function in various groups of people, and develop healthy ways of doing so.
Society, of course, is a broad term, and there are many different societies, and sub-segments of society. But let's take what we might call American society, as that is what I am most familiar with.
On one hand, there is a stigma attached: the image of the person who, seemingly like a child, is said not to be able to control their impulses, or 'delay gratification'. Curiously, this is often pointed out by people with sufficient economic means not to have had many occasions in which to delay their gratifications. Thus the image of the inner city and 'fast kicks', living for the moment, and the romanticization of danger and criminality that one might find in certain rough parts of town, such as here, in Baltimore. But one sees this in rural areas as well; it is somehow ‘cool’ for men to be tough, and part of this often involves the ability to down shots of cheap whiskey without gagging, at least in movies. Then there is the rich kid gone bad: off to college with a hefty trust fund, parents historically absent either physically or emotionally, or conversely present and engaged, but unable to stop the course of events. So here I see more stigma.
But on the other hand, it is also glamorized. In college, it is popular to boast about having survived this or that binge, and for others to talk about how they nursed a friend back to 'health' after a rough night; it enables one person to try on the role of Billy-bad-ass, and the other person the role of rescuer/care-giver, and as such, this game is very popular in letting younger people rehearse roles they may later take up on a more regular basis. In adult years, the same roles might be again played in AA, or with a therapist; the same ‘game’ with different actors.
Even in adult life, there is much social banter about having had ‘a few too many’, as if such ordeals are a kind of badge of honor, a sign of having rolled with the punches, so to speak.
Then we have those on a professional/celebrity or historic level.
Among writers and artists, there are countless examples of alcoholism: Ernest Hemingway, Tennessee Williams, Edgar Allen Poe, Jackson Pollock, and one could go on and on, not even to mention musicians.
Then we have the pop-celebrity level; stars of perhaps less ‘talent’ but greater mass appeal, and the tabloid attention they garner, in which rehab seems fashionable, something any troubled politician or ailing celebrity does in a jam, something between a spa and a rite of passage, a soft mea culpa.
And of course there are many other examples, but I would say the image is mixed, and varies by the group looking at the situation: among those of Islamic faith, or strict Baptists, alcohol is generally seen as something that one abstains from 100%...among other groups, the image of it and its relative dangers and benefits varies.
But you raised an excellent question, I'm curious to see how sociologists and those in social psychology weigh in on the matter; I have read some books on the topic, but it certainly is one I’d like to explore more.
We may not care what society thinks to the extent it impacts our self esteem and our sobriety, but we would be foolish not to acknowledge that we are part of and must function in various groups of people, and develop healthy ways of doing so.
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Originally Posted by AVRT 
Not caring about what anyone thinks and engaging in grievous, antisocial conduct, to the detriment of others, is a hallmark of addiction.
I'm kidding, of course.
I really do think struggling with sobriety has caused me to be more empathetic. I can walk someplace & see someone who is obviously unhappy & wonder what they're struggling with. Before I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
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AVRT, yeah I agree because I've been feeling awful guilty about how much I have cost society. Jails, psych wards and the numerous ER visits. I have never been a "violent crime" type person. I'm learning that I need to obtain legitimate employment to be a productive member of society.
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I firmly believe that alcoholism is a disease.
I also believe that people generally look down on alcoholics for many reasons.
A close family member is involved in a Harm Reduction Program in the downtown core of my large city. There is a Needle-Exchange program and a safe, clean place for alcoholics to stay. An ex-friend of mine was totally shocked that such a program would exist. "After all, aren't all addicts to be discounted and tossed aside?", she commented. "Why would the government pay for such a program?" I told her, the reason is hope, that by giving an addict a chance to live a month or two longer, or even a week or two, there is hope that he/she will turn his life around. Her mouth fell open as she was stunned by the thought.
I also believe that people generally look down on alcoholics for many reasons.
A close family member is involved in a Harm Reduction Program in the downtown core of my large city. There is a Needle-Exchange program and a safe, clean place for alcoholics to stay. An ex-friend of mine was totally shocked that such a program would exist. "After all, aren't all addicts to be discounted and tossed aside?", she commented. "Why would the government pay for such a program?" I told her, the reason is hope, that by giving an addict a chance to live a month or two longer, or even a week or two, there is hope that he/she will turn his life around. Her mouth fell open as she was stunned by the thought.
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Originally Posted by AVRT
Not caring about what anyone thinks and engaging in grievous, antisocial conduct, to the detriment of others, is a hallmark of addiction. I believe that those who have recovered had better start caring about what society thinks and start acting like proper citizens again, if only to serve as an example.
What I mean by not caring what others think of me, is even while I was a practicing alcoholic, I was also a pretty darn good member of society and still am (I'm not going to get into all the voluntarism and other things I did/do in/for my community, just know I did/do a lot), and if someone is going to have negative opinions of me...well f*** em!
Although, after reading Justfor1's last post, I kind of think we may be talking apples and oranges, but maybe not.
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Originally Posted by wheresthefun
I am an addict, but I do not engage in "grievous, antisocial conduct, to the detriment of others".
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Originally Posted by AVRT
You are no longer using, though. I don't know your story, but addiction necessarily breeds antisocial conduct. It is rarely otherwise. Anyone that has ever driven drunk, swindled the boss out of sick days to recover from hangovers, has not properly tendered to the needs of their partner or family because of drinking, or has spent family finances on drinking or using, has engaged in antisocial conduct, to the detriment of others.
How many clean and sober people call into work sick because they just don't feel like going in or want to do something without taking a vacation day? I bet a lot.
How many clean and sober people are reading and posting on this forum right now at work, stealing time (which is money) from their employer? I bet a lot. (Least in my case I'm screwing myself, as I'm the owner of the business.
)How many clean and sober people spent some of the household income on something selfish for themselves, instead of paying a bill or buying food..? I bet a lot.
How often do you see extremely reckless driving, are all those people under the influence? I'm willing to bet the majority of those people are clean and sober.
How many clean and sober people have gone off with friends or by themselves, say fishing, or shopping... failing to attend to the needs of a partner/family? I bet a lot.
I'm not talking the above examples, I think where this thread was intended to go was eluded to in Justfor1's last post.
Again, I'm not perfect, but in the big scheme of things, I'm a decent person and a productive member of society, and if society is going to look down on me...f*** em.
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Originally Posted by wheresthefun
I think where this thread was intended to go was eluded to in Justfor1's last post.
Granted, there may be mitigating circumstances for getting loaded on account of being addicted, but the fact remains that addiction impacts those who are not addicted, and society in general. We do not live in a bubble, isolated from the world at large, and there are repercussions for our actions. To pretend that getting loaded is an innocent act only exasperates the problem.
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Originally Posted by sugarbear1
I can't worry about what others think. I drank because I worried about what others thoughts
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Just my two cents (I don't know if it is directly related or not).
I work in health care and don't compare the disease model to cancer but about people living with diabetes.
It is often not the individual's fault that they are living with diabetes, but it is their responsibility to help manage their disease. That covers a gamut of behaviors like diet, exercise, medications, regular visits to health care providers etc.
As someone who loves many people struggling with addiction and who has struggled herself (though not with alcohol/drugs) I don't always like the behavior and consequences of use of substances, but I always see addiction as a blessing and a curse. It is a person in pain, but in their pain the ability to heal themself and find "redemtion" for lack of a better word.
I don't always feel grateful for my addiction, but I am grateful that it forced me to get help.
I work in health care and don't compare the disease model to cancer but about people living with diabetes.
It is often not the individual's fault that they are living with diabetes, but it is their responsibility to help manage their disease. That covers a gamut of behaviors like diet, exercise, medications, regular visits to health care providers etc.
As someone who loves many people struggling with addiction and who has struggled herself (though not with alcohol/drugs) I don't always like the behavior and consequences of use of substances, but I always see addiction as a blessing and a curse. It is a person in pain, but in their pain the ability to heal themself and find "redemtion" for lack of a better word.
I don't always feel grateful for my addiction, but I am grateful that it forced me to get help.
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Originally Posted by stugotz
Society LOVES Alcoholics and Addicts. They have their own tv shows now. Just sayin...
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Wow, I must say an excellent conversation and I enjoy the different points of view and insight.
I think that Alcohol is an accepted part of everyday life, that is over glorified by Beer and Liquor commercials, and the negative stigma that is being mentioned here is do to the fact that an Alcoholic has lost control over their consumption, and that is typically what is frowned upon in society, no matter if it is drinking, food, smoking drugs or internet porn..
Whereisthefun, has a great point about sober people doing equally dumb things that is looked down upon but not crucified like an out of control drunk would be if he uses the excuse of his/her "addiction" as the get out of jail free card as AVRT pointed out so well.
It frustrates me in today's world how everyone is looking for a label for what is different or wrong with them, not to improve themselves or to address the problem but in turn looking for the excuse for the behavior. I see it at my kids school, everyone has an issue and everyone wants a pill to make it better or a diagnosis so they can check the box rather than addressing the problems. At teacher conferences I ask not to discuss grades or the possibility of drugging my child, I ask do they give enough effort, are they empathetic to others, are they respectful?
We are in a pop a pill culture. We make fun or outcast those who can not control their eating, drinking, drugging or viewing etc..
I have noticed it first hand since I stopped drinking (eight months last week), most people never thought I had a problem and few acted strange around me, like they have lost some sort of respect of me because I lost control of myself and were walking on eggshells with me. The even fewer that asked me how I came to the decision, understood once I told them that I choose not to drink because I know, from my 20 years of drinking, exactly what will happen if I choose to continue to drink and it got BORING knowing the outcome. It would not be catastrophic, I am lucky I never went off the deep end, I would waste time money and energy on things that are not truly important to me at all. It was groundhogs day every time I drank. Some understood where I was coming from some did not. But it is important to me not to drink, so I abstain, happily without judgement.
I think that Alcohol is an accepted part of everyday life, that is over glorified by Beer and Liquor commercials, and the negative stigma that is being mentioned here is do to the fact that an Alcoholic has lost control over their consumption, and that is typically what is frowned upon in society, no matter if it is drinking, food, smoking drugs or internet porn..
Whereisthefun, has a great point about sober people doing equally dumb things that is looked down upon but not crucified like an out of control drunk would be if he uses the excuse of his/her "addiction" as the get out of jail free card as AVRT pointed out so well.
It frustrates me in today's world how everyone is looking for a label for what is different or wrong with them, not to improve themselves or to address the problem but in turn looking for the excuse for the behavior. I see it at my kids school, everyone has an issue and everyone wants a pill to make it better or a diagnosis so they can check the box rather than addressing the problems. At teacher conferences I ask not to discuss grades or the possibility of drugging my child, I ask do they give enough effort, are they empathetic to others, are they respectful?
We are in a pop a pill culture. We make fun or outcast those who can not control their eating, drinking, drugging or viewing etc..
I have noticed it first hand since I stopped drinking (eight months last week), most people never thought I had a problem and few acted strange around me, like they have lost some sort of respect of me because I lost control of myself and were walking on eggshells with me. The even fewer that asked me how I came to the decision, understood once I told them that I choose not to drink because I know, from my 20 years of drinking, exactly what will happen if I choose to continue to drink and it got BORING knowing the outcome. It would not be catastrophic, I am lucky I never went off the deep end, I would waste time money and energy on things that are not truly important to me at all. It was groundhogs day every time I drank. Some understood where I was coming from some did not. But it is important to me not to drink, so I abstain, happily without judgement.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by Anna
I firmly believe that alcoholism is a disease.
I also believe that people generally look down on alcoholics for many reasons.
A close family member is involved in a Harm Reduction Program in the downtown core of my large city. There is a Needle-Exchange program and a safe, clean place for alcoholics to stay. An ex-friend of mine was totally shocked that such a program would exist. "After all, aren't all addicts to be discounted and tossed aside?", she commented. "Why would the government pay for such a program?" I told her, the reason is hope, that by giving an addict a chance to live a month or two longer, or even a week or two, there is hope that he/she will turn his life around. Her mouth fell open as she was stunned by the thought.
I also believe that people generally look down on alcoholics for many reasons.
A close family member is involved in a Harm Reduction Program in the downtown core of my large city. There is a Needle-Exchange program and a safe, clean place for alcoholics to stay. An ex-friend of mine was totally shocked that such a program would exist. "After all, aren't all addicts to be discounted and tossed aside?", she commented. "Why would the government pay for such a program?" I told her, the reason is hope, that by giving an addict a chance to live a month or two longer, or even a week or two, there is hope that he/she will turn his life around. Her mouth fell open as she was stunned by the thought.
I'm kind of wondering how a program like the one you describe is any different than a family member or friend enabling an addict and providing them with one last bottle, drug supply, chance etc... in "hope" that they might turn around.... I'm just struck I guess by how there's a discrepancy between what's considered enabling when it's on a personal/family and friends level and what's not considered enabling (even though it kind of seems like it is) when it's being done by "professionals" under the auspices of helping addicts. I'm confused about how I'm to accept that I can't control or influence my AH in any way but a government funded program is essentially doing a large scale version of what a LOT of co-dependent enablers do in their own homes (and get told not to).
Am I missing something?
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PS. Just realized this was on the alcoholics forum and not Friends and Family where I usually hang out. I was reading another thread on there with a link to here and didn't realize it was a different board. I still would have written what I did above on Friends and Family but may not have if I'd realized I was on this board since I don't want to offend or upset anyone. I'm married to (well, separated actually) an alcoholic and I know that my experience is different than that of some on here and I hope that I didn't offend with my thoughts I shared. I thought that I was doing so on F & F when I posted...
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One thing I don't understand is, when some describe alcoholism as "it takes away too many beautiful people" as if said people are incapable of making their own choices. Alcoholism/addiction may be a disease, but the alcoholic/addict ultimately makes the choice to either recover and stay sober or continue drinking, doing drugs, etc., and die.
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
I'm kind of wondering how a program like the one you describe is any different than a family member or friend enabling an addict and providing them with one last bottle, drug supply, chance etc... in "hope" that they might turn around....
I know some countries have designated zones where using is decriminalized, which helps keep the crime pertaining to those activities contained, easier to control, and away from other places. I can also see the benefit of that, but I don't know quite where I stand on giving addicts free rent so they can keep on using, though.
I do have to wonder if using the free rent as an incentive to quit might not be more effective. I suppose it would depend on whether or not they are providing people with a means to quit while they are staying there, or whether they are just letting them carry on with business as usual.
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