Confessions
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
I concure with Taz on this one enough said for me.
Taking advice from someone who has not worked the steps with a sponsor is like putting your life in the hands of a surgeon who has never been to medical school and never performed surgery before.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 746
Opinions based on an experience never had are dangerous. As has been said by others, my life is now an open book, I do not regret the past, I have cleaned up the wreckage.
On a different note "Yes, I agree, churches are run by man and so is AA.
I have no experience with church so I will not share my opinion. On the other hand this is what the traditions say about man running AA.
Tradition Two: For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving GOD as HE may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
On a different note "Yes, I agree, churches are run by man and so is AA.
I have no experience with church so I will not share my opinion. On the other hand this is what the traditions say about man running AA.
Tradition Two: For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving GOD as HE may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
Originally Posted by Rob B 
Opinions based on an experience never had are dangerous. As has been said by others, my life is now an open book, I do not regret the past, I have cleaned up the wreckage.
On a different note "Yes, I agree, churches are run by man and so is AA.
I have no experience with church so I will not share my opinion. On the other hand this is what the traditions say about man running AA.
Tradition Two: For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving GOD as HE may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
On a different note "Yes, I agree, churches are run by man and so is AA.
I have no experience with church so I will not share my opinion. On the other hand this is what the traditions say about man running AA.
Tradition Two: For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving GOD as HE may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by caraway
Thankyou for your post Rob, but I don't know what point you are making.
Unless someone has experienced something they are just speaking from opinion. Opinions are like as*holes everyone has one but some stink more than others. In other words which do I put more faith in: opinions or experience?
Give me experience anytime as it is based on real occurances.
The second part is that AA is God governed not man governed. Our leaders are simply trusted servants, there is no government system within our organization. Churches have governing bodies that dictate what the churches themselves can and can not do. AA does not.
I could be wrong in my interpretation of what Rob said so please take my interpretation with a grain of salt as it is based on my experience.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northern California
Posts: 57
The point I take away from this--whether it was the intended point or not--is just that we have to be careful who we share with. Good advice, no? Surely I'm not the only here who woke in the middle of the night and thought "oh sh**, I can't believe I told him that!!"
But most of us who have been through the steps and worked with a sponsor have had a similar experience (I think), which is that once we shared our "deepest, darkest, secrets," they lost their mysterious power. So what if I told my sponsor my dirty secrets? Being in the program has taught me humility, and humility is a wonderful thing. I realize that my terrible, terrible, crimes are not such a big deal, that my screw-ups and failures are no more serious than any one else's...in fact, they are part of what connects me with others and allows me to see myself, and all of us, in a compassionate light.
That said, I would be embarassed and ticked off if my sponsor decided to blab about what I told him. But I trust the guy. Not easy for an alkie, and this alkie in particular. That's recovery, to me...trust, humility, all that dang touchy-feely stuff.
But most of us who have been through the steps and worked with a sponsor have had a similar experience (I think), which is that once we shared our "deepest, darkest, secrets," they lost their mysterious power. So what if I told my sponsor my dirty secrets? Being in the program has taught me humility, and humility is a wonderful thing. I realize that my terrible, terrible, crimes are not such a big deal, that my screw-ups and failures are no more serious than any one else's...in fact, they are part of what connects me with others and allows me to see myself, and all of us, in a compassionate light.
That said, I would be embarassed and ticked off if my sponsor decided to blab about what I told him. But I trust the guy. Not easy for an alkie, and this alkie in particular. That's recovery, to me...trust, humility, all that dang touchy-feely stuff.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
There is no argument. What we see here are different opinions.
I don’t have to work the steps to be able to see potential harm in step 5. I also don’t have to get shot in the leg know it’s going to hurt.
This is not about unwillingness to be honest, nor is it about not going to any length, this is about not giving vulnerable people bad advice.
Just because someone is sober does not mean that they are a sane, responsible healthy person capable of guiding another through the wreckage of their past. Many people have things in their past that needs professional guidance, otherwise why would they be drinking themselves to death?
The assumption that everyone makes is that if someone has worked the steps that they are transformed into wise, knowledgeable saint like humans. Take a look around your next meeting…anyone wearing a halo?
Someone new to aa should be extremely careful whom they associate with. Admittedly the rooms are full of sick people….some sicker than others. This is not an opinion it is a fact.
It is insane to tell another person, (whom one really does not know other than what they type here at SR) to confess all their “sins” with a stranger who once again they do not know.
As far as personal experience, I was fortunate to be able to see early on that my sponsor and her sobriety was not what I wanted to have. I believe I mentioned her attitudes towards other sober members of aa in some of my early posts here at SR. She was judgmental and a gossip. There were many times she would tell me things about other members of my home group…she would always start off with “because I trust you” and end with “this is between you and I” Yeah right! Obviously some of her character defects had not been removed. What is sad is that there is no way to stop her from being a sponsor, she has time, she worked the steps, she is free to do as she pleases.
I don’t have to work the steps to be able to see potential harm in step 5. I also don’t have to get shot in the leg know it’s going to hurt.
This is not about unwillingness to be honest, nor is it about not going to any length, this is about not giving vulnerable people bad advice.
Just because someone is sober does not mean that they are a sane, responsible healthy person capable of guiding another through the wreckage of their past. Many people have things in their past that needs professional guidance, otherwise why would they be drinking themselves to death?
The assumption that everyone makes is that if someone has worked the steps that they are transformed into wise, knowledgeable saint like humans. Take a look around your next meeting…anyone wearing a halo?
Someone new to aa should be extremely careful whom they associate with. Admittedly the rooms are full of sick people….some sicker than others. This is not an opinion it is a fact.
It is insane to tell another person, (whom one really does not know other than what they type here at SR) to confess all their “sins” with a stranger who once again they do not know.
As far as personal experience, I was fortunate to be able to see early on that my sponsor and her sobriety was not what I wanted to have. I believe I mentioned her attitudes towards other sober members of aa in some of my early posts here at SR. She was judgmental and a gossip. There were many times she would tell me things about other members of my home group…she would always start off with “because I trust you” and end with “this is between you and I” Yeah right! Obviously some of her character defects had not been removed. What is sad is that there is no way to stop her from being a sponsor, she has time, she worked the steps, she is free to do as she pleases.
No more merlot, more mamma
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hills, Ct
Posts: 2,139
Bugs,
Did you find another sponsor? One who has what you'd like to have? When this happened with your sponsor did you effectively give up on working a program? That's a shame, cause I'm sure there are other folks who you would be able to get to know, trust, and work the Steps with and would honor your work.
Don't make one person personify the whole of AA for you. That's not giving the program a chance nor yourself a chance either.
Did you find another sponsor? One who has what you'd like to have? When this happened with your sponsor did you effectively give up on working a program? That's a shame, cause I'm sure there are other folks who you would be able to get to know, trust, and work the Steps with and would honor your work.
Don't make one person personify the whole of AA for you. That's not giving the program a chance nor yourself a chance either.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
I think you've made a really good point there merlotmamma. All recovery programs have their faults and if we go on looking for the perfect program, we're unlikely to find it. As for faults in AA, now, how can I put this, for me, I think that learning to cope with setbacks and other peoples' faults is part of my program. Nothings perfect, thats life, but I don't think it is wrong to point out sometimes, what those imperfections might be, so that we can have a bit of a think about it.
For me, it is not like flogging a dead horse, it gets me thinking about my program and I have found this thread useful.
For me, it is not like flogging a dead horse, it gets me thinking about my program and I have found this thread useful.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I've taken numerous Fifth Steps, and to my knowledge, not one person who's heard one of my Fifth Steps has broken that confidence. My first sponsor relaped at seventeen years sober and he knows more about me than anyone. I still trust him with that, and he's not even in AA before.
As for me, I've done a lot of things wrong in AA, but breaking a confidence is not one of them. To me it is a sacred thing. When I take someone through the steps, they are putting their life in my hands. That is an awesome responsibilty that I don't take lightly.
And has been said, I'm not really interested in someone's opinion of an experience they've never had. More smoke blowing.
Jim
As for me, I've done a lot of things wrong in AA, but breaking a confidence is not one of them. To me it is a sacred thing. When I take someone through the steps, they are putting their life in my hands. That is an awesome responsibilty that I don't take lightly.
And has been said, I'm not really interested in someone's opinion of an experience they've never had. More smoke blowing.
Jim
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
"Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious conception, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics. " (From 1st edition.)
The person doing the fifth step has the control over who they talk to. If they have established a close relationship with their sponsor then they should feel confident confiding with them. The BB suggests clergy, doctors, friends and family, (as long as telling the family your issues doesent harm them). The 12&12 suggests the same, with addition of the option of talking with their sponsor. There is nothing wrong with confiding with clergy, just as long as your still practicing the actions of willingness, honesty, and thoroughness. Cutting corners only screws yourself. I know of members who are active with their churches where the churches also house AA meetings and support the AA members. Their is an difference between being cautious of who to talk to, and using that caution as an excuse not to talk to anyone at all. (which is also mentioned in the BB and 12&12).
My sponsor has 17 years of sobriety, and is like a father figure to me. I trust telling him anything. The newcomer can obtain literature on sponsorship and what to look for.
Tom
The person doing the fifth step has the control over who they talk to. If they have established a close relationship with their sponsor then they should feel confident confiding with them. The BB suggests clergy, doctors, friends and family, (as long as telling the family your issues doesent harm them). The 12&12 suggests the same, with addition of the option of talking with their sponsor. There is nothing wrong with confiding with clergy, just as long as your still practicing the actions of willingness, honesty, and thoroughness. Cutting corners only screws yourself. I know of members who are active with their churches where the churches also house AA meetings and support the AA members. Their is an difference between being cautious of who to talk to, and using that caution as an excuse not to talk to anyone at all. (which is also mentioned in the BB and 12&12).
My sponsor has 17 years of sobriety, and is like a father figure to me. I trust telling him anything. The newcomer can obtain literature on sponsorship and what to look for.
Tom
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
I've skimmed this thread, and I'll admit to not reading every single word of every single post. I've been trying very hard to avoid any thread where I sense a debate about to begin, and I've tried to walk away from those where it's broken out in earnest.
Well, I'm having a weak moment. Several thoughts have come to mind that I'd like to express.
I have a friend who says, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean folks aren't out to get you." It's usually said in jest, but I do know some chaos junkies who live their lives on the grapevine and fight to stay in the thick of things. I avoid those folks except for polite greetings. As a result, there's a small clique who have expressed the sentiment that I'm an "ice queen" and "stuck up." These folks don't mean me harm. They just haven't yet become ready to get all the way sober. So, bugsworth, I agree that there are people who probably shouldn't be trusted with a fifth step. But, it's no reason to caution everyone away from that particular step. I believe it's vital to recovery, to moving on to the next step, and the next. For me, that's the only way I could get better, so I had to do it.
So, what's a person to do? Well, we do make the suggestion to come to meetings early and stay late. Do that, and I can almost guarantee that you'll learn what you need to know about that woman or man you've had your eye and ear on in the meetings. The one who sounds so good sharing that you're thinking about asking him or her to sponsor you. If you don't come early and stay late, how will you know if they walk the walk as well as talk the talk? I'm applying to grad schools right now. Guess what? They're not all created equally. I can't expect that just because they have "university" after the name, they're going to be everything I need. But, folks walk into an AA meeting, and they expect that just because someone has a brass coin jingling in their pocket, they should be all better, one as good as another, and they're all ready to condemn the whole fellowship if they don't do their own homework.
What do you do if you ask someone to sponsor you and he or she turns out to be something other than you thought? Well, you can get a new sponsor. You can choose someone else to do a fifth step with. I know a guy who was getting ready to move to another city. He rode the bus every day, and over a couple of years, he'd become friends with another bus rider, a little old man who seemed open-minded and friendly. Before he made his big move, he asked the man to meet him for coffee, and he did his fifth step with him. This man wasn't alcoholic. He wasn't a priest. He didn't even know the man's first name until he asked him out for coffee. The step says another human being. It doesn't say a sponsor or a priest. All he had to do was to say certain things out loud so that he could stop running from them, get them out in the light so they no longer had to fester inside him.
When I did my fifth step, I was very angry, full of shame and afraid of everything. In the last four and a half years, I've spoken about nearly everything on my fourth step list in (non-AA) public, wrote essays about it, shared it in meetings -- in other words, I became free from it, and it can't hurt me anymore, and now, it's up to me to use those experiences to help other people. It's all part of my experience, strength and hope. Nobody can hurt me with those things anymore! I have admitted it all!
caraway said it very well in indicating that dealing with the failings of others is part of my program. I agree with that, though I think it's a lot harder for a newcomer who doesn't have a grasp of his or her own failings to do that. I know folks who do their best to head off newcomers before that clique I mentioned swoops in. They consider it a responsibility, and perhaps as a result, the clique's gotten smaller still.
See why I try to stay out of these things? I need to go claim my seat in Onanonanon! I'll back on out again now...
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Well, I'm having a weak moment. Several thoughts have come to mind that I'd like to express.
I have a friend who says, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean folks aren't out to get you." It's usually said in jest, but I do know some chaos junkies who live their lives on the grapevine and fight to stay in the thick of things. I avoid those folks except for polite greetings. As a result, there's a small clique who have expressed the sentiment that I'm an "ice queen" and "stuck up." These folks don't mean me harm. They just haven't yet become ready to get all the way sober. So, bugsworth, I agree that there are people who probably shouldn't be trusted with a fifth step. But, it's no reason to caution everyone away from that particular step. I believe it's vital to recovery, to moving on to the next step, and the next. For me, that's the only way I could get better, so I had to do it.
So, what's a person to do? Well, we do make the suggestion to come to meetings early and stay late. Do that, and I can almost guarantee that you'll learn what you need to know about that woman or man you've had your eye and ear on in the meetings. The one who sounds so good sharing that you're thinking about asking him or her to sponsor you. If you don't come early and stay late, how will you know if they walk the walk as well as talk the talk? I'm applying to grad schools right now. Guess what? They're not all created equally. I can't expect that just because they have "university" after the name, they're going to be everything I need. But, folks walk into an AA meeting, and they expect that just because someone has a brass coin jingling in their pocket, they should be all better, one as good as another, and they're all ready to condemn the whole fellowship if they don't do their own homework.
What do you do if you ask someone to sponsor you and he or she turns out to be something other than you thought? Well, you can get a new sponsor. You can choose someone else to do a fifth step with. I know a guy who was getting ready to move to another city. He rode the bus every day, and over a couple of years, he'd become friends with another bus rider, a little old man who seemed open-minded and friendly. Before he made his big move, he asked the man to meet him for coffee, and he did his fifth step with him. This man wasn't alcoholic. He wasn't a priest. He didn't even know the man's first name until he asked him out for coffee. The step says another human being. It doesn't say a sponsor or a priest. All he had to do was to say certain things out loud so that he could stop running from them, get them out in the light so they no longer had to fester inside him.
When I did my fifth step, I was very angry, full of shame and afraid of everything. In the last four and a half years, I've spoken about nearly everything on my fourth step list in (non-AA) public, wrote essays about it, shared it in meetings -- in other words, I became free from it, and it can't hurt me anymore, and now, it's up to me to use those experiences to help other people. It's all part of my experience, strength and hope. Nobody can hurt me with those things anymore! I have admitted it all!
caraway said it very well in indicating that dealing with the failings of others is part of my program. I agree with that, though I think it's a lot harder for a newcomer who doesn't have a grasp of his or her own failings to do that. I know folks who do their best to head off newcomers before that clique I mentioned swoops in. They consider it a responsibility, and perhaps as a result, the clique's gotten smaller still.
See why I try to stay out of these things? I need to go claim my seat in Onanonanon! I'll back on out again now...
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
Originally Posted by Sugah
I've skimmed this thread, and I'll admit to not reading every single word of every single post. I've been trying very hard to avoid any thread where I sense a debate about to begin, and I've tried to walk away from those where it's broken out in earnest.
Yeah me too Sugah. Maybe I shouldn't of even posted. Thanks for your post. I'm here to help others, not participate in debates.
Tom
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
Okay! One last note! As I was spending a little Valentine's Day time with my husband before I hit "send," I see there have been some more responses. Tom did mention the passage which refers to a "properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive" our fifth step. My friend explained to his fellow bus rider what he was asking of him, what it meant to him, and let the man make the decision, knowing that he probably wouldn't see my friend again. The man agreed to receive it. That's very important, IMO, and as per the passage of the Big Book quoted above.
Okay, I'm done now
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Okay, I'm done now
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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