bugsworth

No tremendous fact....just a tip...

"Analyze before you utilize."

Being deliberately obtuse is not flattering.

29a

kind of like "experience before you criticize"
*wink*

said with love bugsworth

actually I couldn't agree with you more. It is a vital step, and I could easily see someone who's confidence is broken being hurt and turning away from sobriety. That is what makes this such an awesome responsibility, hearing someones fifth.

bugsworth

Thanks 29a...your honesty is much appreciated

btw not everybody turns away from sobriety...some just turn away from aa, big difference.
*wink*

29a

no, thank you
that is a dW#$mn good point

some times we aa'ers need to remember we don't have a monopoly on sobriety. at least, sometimes I need to remember it. When someone stops coming to aa my first reaction is "welp, they're gonna get drunk". great attitude huh?

i'm workin on it, progress not perfection

sugErspun

Yes, the great fact is that AA, and it's foundation, a book called Alcoholics Anonymous - has a common solution.

Reading this thread, I have seen a few people who use 'parts' of AA, and that is all well and good - but where is all animosity shown towards members who stick to a common solution, and have had experience with that solution, and share based on that experience being attacked come from? The solution being broken into parts that are ok with them, and leave out certain other parts - and that a step says we made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand him , but it's only a decision and etc etc - this is just not AA. The solution is not found in the 12 steps. The solution is found in a practicle relationship and reliance on a 'higher power' - this means we do not rely on ourselves to keep us sober - we have tried and it just doesn't work. Therefore - I do not take any credit in getting nor staying sober..it's not my credit because I couldn't fix myself, yet here I sit, fixed.

I think the main intent of this thread is nothing short of mean, it was not written in the spirit of love and fellowship, or even to offer practicle advice to getting and staying sober - it was an attack at AA, even the author has admitted to a cunning attempt to point out some inconsistencies, going to a brash extreme to 'make a point'. I have not seen anyone claim AA is the only way. I do see an attempt here to stir up a heated debate and attack AA.

I have also seen a 'warning' about AA, and that is well within the rules of this site and forum. But what purpose does it serve? I don't see any attacks by AA members on any other 'path' to sobriety - maybe I am just comfortable with my sobriety, but that does not mean I will sit aside and write this thread off as constructive or helpful to someone who may be seeking help with alcoholism.

I would like to propose a warning that if someone is telling you that you can be free from the terror of alcoholism, but they are unable or unwilling to share their time and experience of 'precisely' how that has come about for them - beware - you are almost sure to drink again, and if you be alcoholic, that may mean a terrible life, followed by a terrible death.

Take care and God bless.

~Adam

(just to note - I still have not seen a single person who regrets sharing their fifth step as the act of reading their fourth step out loud with another human - the main subject of this thread remains unsubstantiated)

caraway

How do you know, from reading a thread on a forum, what a persons program really is about? Is this your opinion or do you have evidence of this?

'cunning attempt' ... sounds a bit paranoid to me! Sounds to me like you have your own opinions and don't like it when someone else has theirs. I'm in AA and I don't feel at all attacked by it, I welcome criticism (so long as its not personal), it gets me thinking, and I believe I am working the program the way it was meant to be worked, to the best of my ability.


I don't think this is a warning about AA but rather a warning about some of the people you can get in it. People in AA often give warnings about other people if they feel they might jeopardise their sobriety.


Who on this thread has said they are unwilling to share their time and experience. And what do you mean by 'precisely' - although I hardly dare ask - it sounds a bit ominous to me!

bugsworth

sugErspun,

Sometimes as you well know it takes being "brash" to make a point especially when people refuse to see anything other than what they want to see.

I have seen it many times here at SR...most of the time it is called tough love...

I have never told an alcoholic to go out and try somemore drinking...Thats mean

I have never said someone was a relapse waiting to happen...Thats mean

I have never presumed to question if one is a "true" alcoholic...thats mean

I did offer practical advice...becareful whom you choose to share with....my thoughts are not welcome in the 12 step forum...so by following the "rules" that members of aa have set up on this site (not an aa site btw) I posted here.

Mean you say? I think it is mean to not tell the truth, to leave out facts that can guide someone to a smart sober decision.

You say the solution is not found in the 12 steps? That is news to me...then why do them?

I have a practical relationship with God, but I still rely on myself to stay sober with gratitude that the power was within me all the time...I just lost my way.

I do take credit for getting and staying sober..it's is my credit because no one else did the quitting for me, yet here I sit, fixed.

How I precisely did it was.....I made the decision to stop screwing up my life with booze...not kinda made the decision...I didn't dance around the decision...I didn't change my mind when it got hard...I dug in and dug out. I didn't want to die anymore...I wanted to live so I utilized every God given gift I had...my will, my brain and my heart.


(just a note- just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, rather narrow minded don't you think?)

Rob B

This thread has come to an end of any useful purpose it may have had. How about we all give it a rest.

sugErspun

"Who on this thread has said they are unwilling to share their time and experience. And what do you mean by 'precisely' - although I hardly dare ask - it sounds a bit ominous to me!"


"To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book." - Foreward to the First Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Big Book On Line

Yeah, precisely.

As far as the other things - I asked for experience to be shared to substantiate the claims that started this thread, none have been provided. It's quite simple really.

Principles before personalities. I am quite sure we have all heard that before, yet here you are being warned of 'the people' in AA.

All the best.

~A

bugsworth

SugEspun,

You must not have read the whole thread. My sponsor was a gossip. Not somone to be trusted. Another poster stated she had issues with a sponsor.

What I find interesting is that I have seen many posts on this forum in regards to things that happen in the rooms...things that were not so good and pure...thats when the debate over the fellowship happens...you know the one... the fellowship is not the program...how much garbage you hear in the rooms...bad messages being sent out....getting back to basics...so many problem drinkers in the rooms....

You want it both ways. The people are perfect...The people are ruining the program.

You also want the luxury to draw on either answer when it suits you.

sugErspun

I read the entire thread. You never mentioned that your sponsor broke your trust, you said you saw that she couldn't be trusted (gossip about others to you in confidence) and didn't continue to work with her.

Where did I say the people were perfect? Never.


This thread wasn't about the effect of 'problem drinkers' on AA as a whole.

That we will keep in the 12 step forum, feel free to read and share your EXPERIENCE with it, it is always welcome.

caraway

Thanks for pointing out the source of the term precisely, phew, thats a relief - to be able to read it in the context it was originally written.

Actually, I was the person who had my trust broken. I sort of get the feeling that my experience is invalid. Perhaps I'm just too stupid to be taken any notice of. Perhaps only positive experiences count and negative ones have to be swept under the carpet.

To put principles before personality isn't something acquired on walking through the doors of AA. It takes practice.

You didn't say people were perfect, but you seem to be of the opinion that AA is perfect and isn't AA made up of people? I mean, without people where would AA be? What happens to principles when people don't have them?

bugsworth

Yes she did prove she was not to be trusted. Fortunately for me I didn't tell her anything that someone somewhere didn't already know!! She did however break many confidences by speaking with me. Funny when I told her I was uncomfortable with her behavior she laughed it of as "one of those character defects" she was working on...YUCK

And you are right this thread is not about "problem drinkers" in aa...it was just an example...LOL sly devil you are!

sugErspun

Caraway- I did see the post where you mentioned that you had trust broken, but when I talk about experience - what happened? How did you feel? How were you injured? Has that relationship ever been 'made current' - amended? All we can really share is our experience, and I try to be as specific as possible when sharing, even if I have to change names to protect the innocent whose names need not be posted on this site.


Please share what that was like - it might help someone. Negative experiences are just as useful as positive... I would never discount someone's negative experience in AA, but like it has been said - in AA there is ONE ultimate Authority. A loving God.

We need these human experiences to grow (i.e. we need people), to get well. AA is not perfect (I would be the last person to tell you that 'AA' is perfect - depending on what we mean when talking about 'AA' - people's definitions differ), but you know what? - It works for me, and I was hopeless. I couldn't just dig in and try harder, I was tired and ready to die. Even when I managed to stay away from the first drink for almost 2 years, I still didn't feel whole - and of course, I drank again - I didn't understand what I was dealing with, I didn't know what alcoholism is - and I had been in AA for 6+ years!

If we stick to sharing our experience, I think we will all be better for it.

sugErspun

Bugs - that is why, I always tell people to look for someone who has something they want....if you cannot validate their experience in that book, it is probably best to stay away (i.e. nowhere in the book does it say that we work on our character defects - it states that we are willing to have them removed and ask a God of our understanding to remove those which block our usefullness to God and others).

caraway

I would have thought that saying you have had a confidence broken is enough without having to go into precise details. When I say enough, I mean enough to make people aware of that danger. Not everyone entering AA is at a stage where they want their lives made public, otherwise, why have a sponsor, why not just do your fifth step at a general share? I'm surprised you ask for details. As previously stated, I have learned from the experience and feel that goes towards my own maturity and how I handle friendships within AA (and without). I don't see the necessity of going into detail. Surely its enough to be able to say be careful who you confide in. What is wrong with saying that?

If I thought it had helped me that much perhaps I should start gossiping in AA for the good of others, you know, a bit of tough love. I don't know. (Of course I'm not going to do this.)

bugsworth

SugErspun, When I got to aa I was a broken down mess, on the verge of harming myself because I saw no end to the misery. Everybody had what I wanted...or so it seemed in those very early days.

My sponsor approached me at my first meeting. Called me the next day where she explained the role of a sponsor. She didn't suggest shopping around. I met her for a meeting that evening and she became my sponsor. I hadn't even read the first page of the bb, much less done any resarch on sponsors. NOW I know better, NOW I would make a different choice, but that does not change what happened. My experience.

FightingIrish

wow, this is like an aa business meeting!

i'm fascinated by all the anti-aa resentment in the world. just the same, i have certainly been become resentful about some of the things that have been said in the rooms by people who seem to think they know this or that because they have some time behind them.

i was intrigued to read that a friend of aa, father edward dowling, had this to say in his address to the general convention in 1955:

"Alcoholics Anonymous--not merely alcoholics, but Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill spoke last night of the outside antagonist in Alcoholics Anonymous,
John Barleycorn. But I have always felt that there is an inside
antagonist who is crueler, and that is the corporate sneer for a phony,
and who of us is not a phony? I think that in all groups you have the
problem of people of lynx-eyed virtue."

Last night I was at a meeting and there was a lot of crosstalk-in-disguise coming from certain old-timers reacting to things that others had shared about. So when it came my turn, I said, "I have a question...does 'identify don't compare' apply only to newcomers?"

*crickets* and some nervous laughter among the newcomers.

sugErspun

Thank you Bugs.

truly.

I think what you shared there will be very useful to someone.
(I am not being snide).


~Adam

Zoobear

I love AA. I love (or try my best to love) the people in AA. The program of AA saved my life. Without the people leading by example I never would have given it much of a chance. I went to a lot of meetings, got a sponsor, made coffee, read my big book and worked the steps to the best of ability. Through this program, the grace of God, and people just like you, I have not taken a drink since August 20 1987. That's 20 years. I remember when it was all I could do to just get through the next 15 minutes without a drink. I consider this a miracle. I am sure I would not have made it without a 5th step.
Its ok to be scared as long as you do it. You can do it with whoever you trust. I was told to do it with one person.
I know some who have not ever taken a 5th step. Some stayed sober quite a while, one made it 8 years. ( These are people in AA, I don't know about other methods.) I didn't think it was worth gambling on.
Bugs Im sorry about your sponsor, but you can learn as much from a bad example as a good one.
God bless.