Confessions
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
I found this too about sponsorship in the 12&12, and like Sugah, I'm finally going to stop falling prey to debate threads. lol
In the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions on page 61, it states the following.
“We may want to speak with someone who is experienced, who not only has stayed dry but has been able to surmount other serious difficulties, maybe like our own.”
(Words have been changed for copyright reasons)
Tom
In the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions on page 61, it states the following.
“We may want to speak with someone who is experienced, who not only has stayed dry but has been able to surmount other serious difficulties, maybe like our own.”
(Words have been changed for copyright reasons)
Tom
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Sugah, Thank You...
I know my original post was harsh but I did it for a reason. If I may explain.....
Life is not black or white. On that I am sure we agree.
Not every alcoholic that has worked the steps of aa are suitable sponsors, yet the advice given to newcomers is to be willing to go to any lengths...do what your sponsor says even if it makes you uncomfortable....Utilize don't analize...stop your stinkin thinkin....You know what I mean, we all read the posts here.
My original post was meant to read like so many black and white statements....
You know the ones..God is or he isn't, a "true" alcoholic can't stop without a higher power...the messages that are given based on the opinion of one man, the messages that become others truth.
Are all sponsors bad? NO of course not.
Are all sponsors good? NO of course not.
I do believe a freedom comes from releasing the past a cleansing of the soul, I think that it is vital in recovery...it is akin to a rebirth, a new beginning.
My point was and remains the same. Hearing anothers confession is a huge responsibility it may not be wise to push people into sharing their inner most thought with someone just because they have worked the steps of aa.
Again thank you
I know my original post was harsh but I did it for a reason. If I may explain.....
Life is not black or white. On that I am sure we agree.
Not every alcoholic that has worked the steps of aa are suitable sponsors, yet the advice given to newcomers is to be willing to go to any lengths...do what your sponsor says even if it makes you uncomfortable....Utilize don't analize...stop your stinkin thinkin....You know what I mean, we all read the posts here.
My original post was meant to read like so many black and white statements....
You know the ones..God is or he isn't, a "true" alcoholic can't stop without a higher power...the messages that are given based on the opinion of one man, the messages that become others truth.
Are all sponsors bad? NO of course not.
Are all sponsors good? NO of course not.
I do believe a freedom comes from releasing the past a cleansing of the soul, I think that it is vital in recovery...it is akin to a rebirth, a new beginning.
My point was and remains the same. Hearing anothers confession is a huge responsibility it may not be wise to push people into sharing their inner most thought with someone just because they have worked the steps of aa.
Again thank you
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
There is a process in the first four steps in which you become prepared to complete the fifth step.
No one pushed me, or tricked me, or convinced me to take the fifth step, and I would not have done it if I was uncomfortable with the man who ended up hearing (honestly, as attentive as he was, he seemed bored after 7-8 hours).
Bugs - your post still is only opinion- I have not seen any relevant experience with this step, only fear and speculation. I understand fear - now that I worked that fifth step, it no longer has power over me. The book gives clear cut directions on this step - if you are at AA meetings and the members are saying that one 'must' do their fifth step with a particular person, break out the book and ask them where it says that.
If you would like to see the freedom I have from my this step, I offer the following. My fourth step is written in a three ring binder, it is 125 pages long.
Pick any page, and I will tell you what is written there. As long as it does not cause harm to someone, I will post what I have written on that page. Not via PM - but right here in the most public area we have here at SR.
No one pushed me, or tricked me, or convinced me to take the fifth step, and I would not have done it if I was uncomfortable with the man who ended up hearing (honestly, as attentive as he was, he seemed bored after 7-8 hours).
Bugs - your post still is only opinion- I have not seen any relevant experience with this step, only fear and speculation. I understand fear - now that I worked that fifth step, it no longer has power over me. The book gives clear cut directions on this step - if you are at AA meetings and the members are saying that one 'must' do their fifth step with a particular person, break out the book and ask them where it says that.
If you would like to see the freedom I have from my this step, I offer the following. My fourth step is written in a three ring binder, it is 125 pages long.
Pick any page, and I will tell you what is written there. As long as it does not cause harm to someone, I will post what I have written on that page. Not via PM - but right here in the most public area we have here at SR.
where the light is
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,763
Hey Everyone,
I know some feel that this debate is pointless (I respect that) but I am finding it to be very valuable.
From my perspective – I have only been sober for 60 days. I have only been an AA member and have only known my sponsor for two months. I am only up to step 4. I do not have the peace & serenity that I know that I will achieve through AA. I do not have full confidence & trust in other AA members. How can I? I’m on step 4!
I know that this will come only if I work through the steps honestly & to the best of my ability. I really respect my sponsor, but it is a HUGE leap of faith for me to confide my entire life to someone I really hardly know. The question I posted in the 12 Step Support forum resulted in extremely valuable options & opinions that came in the form of posts & personal messages. I asked a question. And I received the answer (thanks again). I know what I am going to do. For me, that’s what this forum is all about. Take care everyone!
I know some feel that this debate is pointless (I respect that) but I am finding it to be very valuable.
From my perspective – I have only been sober for 60 days. I have only been an AA member and have only known my sponsor for two months. I am only up to step 4. I do not have the peace & serenity that I know that I will achieve through AA. I do not have full confidence & trust in other AA members. How can I? I’m on step 4!
I know that this will come only if I work through the steps honestly & to the best of my ability. I really respect my sponsor, but it is a HUGE leap of faith for me to confide my entire life to someone I really hardly know. The question I posted in the 12 Step Support forum resulted in extremely valuable options & opinions that came in the form of posts & personal messages. I asked a question. And I received the answer (thanks again). I know what I am going to do. For me, that’s what this forum is all about. Take care everyone!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
SugE, I appreciate your offer it is indeed very generous.
I have done a "5th step" if you will, although I didn't do it as outlined in the bb. I shared my past with a minister whom I have known for years. I am no longer fearful of my pasts hold over me, it no longer has any weight. I am free from the wreckage of my past.
My opinion is based on observation and common sense. There is so much talk of how the fellowship is not the program, because the fellowship is human and falliable. It is only logical to tread lightly in the area of a newcomers 5th step.
Gravity, as you pointed out no debate is pointless, there are two sides to every story.
I am glad you found someone you could trust and I respect your decision to move forward. Sobriety is worth the effort! You are an inspiration to many!!
I have done a "5th step" if you will, although I didn't do it as outlined in the bb. I shared my past with a minister whom I have known for years. I am no longer fearful of my pasts hold over me, it no longer has any weight. I am free from the wreckage of my past.
My opinion is based on observation and common sense. There is so much talk of how the fellowship is not the program, because the fellowship is human and falliable. It is only logical to tread lightly in the area of a newcomers 5th step.
Gravity, as you pointed out no debate is pointless, there are two sides to every story.
I am glad you found someone you could trust and I respect your decision to move forward. Sobriety is worth the effort! You are an inspiration to many!!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
I'm glad you're finding this thread of value gravity, me too.
I find threads that turn into debates are sometimes helpful for me - otherwise I wouldn't take part.
If somebody says something that I disagree with it is my responsibility to cope with the feelings that arise within me and my reactions - again that is part of my 'program' - my growing up.
And just because someone has had the experience of a good and trustworthy sponsor - it doesn't mean that when someone says they've had a bad experience in this, that it should be dismissed as smoke blowing.
We are not all sensible and streetwise when we first come to AA. Some of us aren't and we make mistakes that harm ourselves - just as we did when we were drinking. Its as well to point out AA's pitfalls as well as good points in the hope it may help prevent other naive people like me from making the same mistakes.
I do believe that AA is a good place for the alcoholic to be - a sort of representation of the great big frightening world outside where we can learn and we can make mistakes and we can come back hopefully a little wiser.
(My son has just come in, he's grinning at me because I told him the nature of what I'm writing on here. I just said to him how some people come onto these threads for the sole purpose of telling readers that the thread is a waste of time! Funny.)
I find threads that turn into debates are sometimes helpful for me - otherwise I wouldn't take part.
If somebody says something that I disagree with it is my responsibility to cope with the feelings that arise within me and my reactions - again that is part of my 'program' - my growing up.
And just because someone has had the experience of a good and trustworthy sponsor - it doesn't mean that when someone says they've had a bad experience in this, that it should be dismissed as smoke blowing.
We are not all sensible and streetwise when we first come to AA. Some of us aren't and we make mistakes that harm ourselves - just as we did when we were drinking. Its as well to point out AA's pitfalls as well as good points in the hope it may help prevent other naive people like me from making the same mistakes.
I do believe that AA is a good place for the alcoholic to be - a sort of representation of the great big frightening world outside where we can learn and we can make mistakes and we can come back hopefully a little wiser.
(My son has just come in, he's grinning at me because I told him the nature of what I'm writing on here. I just said to him how some people come onto these threads for the sole purpose of telling readers that the thread is a waste of time! Funny.)
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newark,DE
Posts: 404
Hey Bugs,
Without going into detail, I respect your having the guts to challenge the state (SR) sponsored religion of AA. You are 100% right. People are people, and people will talk. To tell perfect strangers, many of whom live and work in your community, people you just met, deep personal things, is anything from foolish to stupid or worse.
JMHO
S
Without going into detail, I respect your having the guts to challenge the state (SR) sponsored religion of AA. You are 100% right. People are people, and people will talk. To tell perfect strangers, many of whom live and work in your community, people you just met, deep personal things, is anything from foolish to stupid or worse.
JMHO
S
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Good points Caraway.
AA's primary strength is also it's primary problem........ people!!!!
For the newcomer it is hard to tell what the heck is even going on! I have been to some meetings where if I was a newcomer I would wonder how in the world this could possibly help some one stay sober!!!!
For the above reason it is very important for a newcomer to go to a lot of different meetings and find what they are looking for.
It takes time to begin to sort out who is sharing thier opinion and who is sharing experience!
I have found that Expereince is what carries weight and recovery, opinion is just that, an opinion.
There is good experience and bad, it all is beneficial.
It took me some time to be able to tell who was sharing opinion and who was sharing expereince.
My expereince in the rooms has shown me that the main difference I see between a happy old timer and a miserable one is that 90% of the time:
The happy ones:
Have worked the steps with a sponsor.
Still have a sponsor.
Has a home group.
Works with other alcoholics.
Sponsors people.
Does service work.
Goes to meetings.
Has a life (Besides work) outside of AA.
The unhappy ones:
Go to tons of meetings
Has no real life outside of meetings (Besides work)
My experience has been that when I listen to someones solution to a problem because they have experience with a certain problem I have learned how someone else successfully dealt with that problem and may be able to make use of it.
My experience has also been that when I hear some bodies opinion that the only thing I have gained is the knowledge of their opinion.
AA's primary strength is also it's primary problem........ people!!!!
For the newcomer it is hard to tell what the heck is even going on! I have been to some meetings where if I was a newcomer I would wonder how in the world this could possibly help some one stay sober!!!!
For the above reason it is very important for a newcomer to go to a lot of different meetings and find what they are looking for.
It takes time to begin to sort out who is sharing thier opinion and who is sharing experience!
I have found that Expereince is what carries weight and recovery, opinion is just that, an opinion.
There is good experience and bad, it all is beneficial.
It took me some time to be able to tell who was sharing opinion and who was sharing expereince.
My expereince in the rooms has shown me that the main difference I see between a happy old timer and a miserable one is that 90% of the time:
The happy ones:
Have worked the steps with a sponsor.
Still have a sponsor.
Has a home group.
Works with other alcoholics.
Sponsors people.
Does service work.
Goes to meetings.
Has a life (Besides work) outside of AA.
The unhappy ones:
Go to tons of meetings
Has no real life outside of meetings (Besides work)
My experience has been that when I listen to someones solution to a problem because they have experience with a certain problem I have learned how someone else successfully dealt with that problem and may be able to make use of it.
My experience has also been that when I hear some bodies opinion that the only thing I have gained is the knowledge of their opinion.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
Thanks for that post Taz, I agree with it. I agree with what you've said. All those points that make for a happy recovering alcoholic, I'd agree with that - its good to have a regular 'home' group and I know from my own past experience how important service work is. And yes, you do get some sad souls whose life seems to revolve around AA and nothing but that.
I'm afraid I'll still have to disagree on one thing, I do like to hear peoples opinions - maybe not at a general AA meeting share, but in life in general and also on this forum. Sometimes its hard to know when it is opinion or actual experience or an opinion based on ones experience, or an opinion based on someone elses experience. I know some people at meetings share an experience which you then find is someone elses experience, they just think it sounds good for a share! But anyway, sometimes people have some very interesting and pertinent opinions to share.
I'm afraid I'll still have to disagree on one thing, I do like to hear peoples opinions - maybe not at a general AA meeting share, but in life in general and also on this forum. Sometimes its hard to know when it is opinion or actual experience or an opinion based on ones experience, or an opinion based on someone elses experience. I know some people at meetings share an experience which you then find is someone elses experience, they just think it sounds good for a share! But anyway, sometimes people have some very interesting and pertinent opinions to share.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by Steve58 
Hey Bugs,
Without going into detail, I respect your having the guts to challenge the state (SR) sponsored religion of AA. You are 100% right. People are people, and people will talk. To tell perfect strangers, many of whom live and work in your community, people you just met, deep personal things, is anything from foolish to stupid or worse.
JMHO
S
Without going into detail, I respect your having the guts to challenge the state (SR) sponsored religion of AA. You are 100% right. People are people, and people will talk. To tell perfect strangers, many of whom live and work in your community, people you just met, deep personal things, is anything from foolish to stupid or worse.
JMHO
S
Have you ever heard stories of people who took their fifth step in prison (with another prisoner?) - Now, if I wanted to find the most untrustworthy people possible - the local prison might be a good place to start (yet I have never heard a single negative story of that EXPERIENCE).
We are talking about spiritual practice in the form of action (faith in the process, faith in humanity) - I guess I can see how some people would think it to be impractical and nonsensical. I will write if off to different wavelengths of existence.
Funny thing is not a singe person has posted that they did their fifth step with someone they trusted and it came back to harm them in the form of their 'deepest darkest secrets' being revealed.
If it was common and practical experience - you would think at least one person (of the hundreds who have viewed this thread) would share their story of how it hurt them.
I called my cable company yesterday evening and told them I had been splitting the internet signal off to my tv for 2 years back in 2001 - 2003, this is actually illegal. We have worked something out to make ammends for what I did. When the check clears - I will be completely free from it.
What harm can possibly come from it now? (This item came up on step 4,5,8 and 9)
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
I'm afraid I'll still have to disagree on one thing, I do like to hear peoples opinions - maybe not at a general AA meeting share, but in life in general and also on this forum.
Opinions shared can, and often do lead to learning from others experience in the area one is is expressing their opinion about.
There are a lot of ways to skin cats, so many times when one has a problem they bring up in a meeting there may be a group of people who can share several different solutions they have used to overcome that problem. The experience of these people sharing the different solutions they have come up with for a certain problem is of great benefit not only to the person with the problem, but to every one in the meeting.
Of course then the person that has the problem has to take the expereince of 5 people and form an opinion of which successful solution they feel will be best for their problem. The good thing though is they are making a decision on successful experiences and not opinions. LOL
If someone wants to get my undivided attention here or at a meeting, let me hear them share thier experience on a relapse and why it happened.... I am all ears!!!! In cases like this, I pray that I will be able to only share on what others have shared about what led to thier relapse and not about my own experience!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I have few experiences I want to share. I wasn't sure whether to post on this thread or the thread on the 12 Step forum that is pretty much on the same subject. But since this thread is still alive, I'll go with this one.
As I have said before. I've done numerous Fifth Steps. Every year since my first year sober, with the exception of a few, I've went to someone I respected and asked them to take me through the first nine steps. Every time has been a positive experience, and as I've said, not one of these people have broken confidence. The two years I didn't formally go through the steps with another member of AA, I "took myself through," so the speak. By that I mean that when I take someone else through, I do it too.
Both those times that I took the steps while taking someone else through, I wrote inventory with no idea of who would hear it. I've found that knowing who is going to hear my inventory can color it. So both times when the inventory was finished, I prayed about who to read it to. The first time, a man I know in AA who has a quality of humilty I admire came to mind, so I read it to him. The second time it came to me that I should read it to a non-alcoholic clergyman, so I sought one out. That turned out to be a Carmelite monk and priest who ended up being my spiritual advisor for three years until his order transfered him to Ireland. I might add that this man was a complete stranger. Twice I have read inventory to more than one person.
A practice I have taken up in the last several years is reading inventory to the people I sponsor. As I have said, when they write I write. So in the last few years, I have written a lot of inventory and taken many "mini Fifth Steps." When it comes time to Fifth Step, I simply read my inventory to them before they read theirs to me. I've found that this practice helps to show the protege' that I'm just like them.
Another practice I've taken up in the last couple of years is something called Steel On Steel. The name comes from the book of Proverbs 27:17-"As Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
I meet with three other men every other Wednesday and we spend about an hour and a half being rigourosly honest with one another. How that works, is we spend spend ten minutes in silence followed by a prayer. Then each person gets ten minutes with a timer to tell us where they are at in every area of life-AA, prayer & meditation, relationships, home life, career, finances, sex, physical health. Athe end of ten minutes, the other members pose considerations about each area where there is a problem. We take these considerations into prayer for the next two weeks. The timer keeps us from going into drawn out justification about where we are at. Another rule of thumb is no attack and no defend. After I hear another member's considerations I simply say "thank you."
I have found great value in these practices as I am more transparent to others and more useful to those I would help because I am more present for them.
Jim
As I have said before. I've done numerous Fifth Steps. Every year since my first year sober, with the exception of a few, I've went to someone I respected and asked them to take me through the first nine steps. Every time has been a positive experience, and as I've said, not one of these people have broken confidence. The two years I didn't formally go through the steps with another member of AA, I "took myself through," so the speak. By that I mean that when I take someone else through, I do it too.
Both those times that I took the steps while taking someone else through, I wrote inventory with no idea of who would hear it. I've found that knowing who is going to hear my inventory can color it. So both times when the inventory was finished, I prayed about who to read it to. The first time, a man I know in AA who has a quality of humilty I admire came to mind, so I read it to him. The second time it came to me that I should read it to a non-alcoholic clergyman, so I sought one out. That turned out to be a Carmelite monk and priest who ended up being my spiritual advisor for three years until his order transfered him to Ireland. I might add that this man was a complete stranger. Twice I have read inventory to more than one person.
A practice I have taken up in the last several years is reading inventory to the people I sponsor. As I have said, when they write I write. So in the last few years, I have written a lot of inventory and taken many "mini Fifth Steps." When it comes time to Fifth Step, I simply read my inventory to them before they read theirs to me. I've found that this practice helps to show the protege' that I'm just like them.
Another practice I've taken up in the last couple of years is something called Steel On Steel. The name comes from the book of Proverbs 27:17-"As Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
I meet with three other men every other Wednesday and we spend about an hour and a half being rigourosly honest with one another. How that works, is we spend spend ten minutes in silence followed by a prayer. Then each person gets ten minutes with a timer to tell us where they are at in every area of life-AA, prayer & meditation, relationships, home life, career, finances, sex, physical health. Athe end of ten minutes, the other members pose considerations about each area where there is a problem. We take these considerations into prayer for the next two weeks. The timer keeps us from going into drawn out justification about where we are at. Another rule of thumb is no attack and no defend. After I hear another member's considerations I simply say "thank you."
I have found great value in these practices as I am more transparent to others and more useful to those I would help because I am more present for them.
Jim
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
Originally Posted by Tazman53
caraway I hope I did not come across as meaning people should not express thier opinions or that I did not like hearing peoples opinions, I do express mine, I try very hard when it is my opinion and that alone to make sure people know it is nothing but my opinion though.
And thanks for sharing your experiences jimhere. I like the point you make about not knowing who you are going to share your inventory with, so as not to color it, and then praying before deciding who to share it with. Lots of other good stuff in your post too... thanks!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Lots of interesting thoughts on this subject.
An opinion should not be discounted because it is not based on experience.
If I may give an example.
I am an animal lover...cats, dogs, birds...etc.
I happen to be the owner of Pit Bulls...I have had Pits as pets for many many years. I have NEVER had a bad experience with my Pits, they have all been loving, gentle and loyal pets. As a matter of fact my name bugsworth is the middle name we use on all our Pits papers...NOW just because I have never had a bad experience with a Pit does not mean that my opinion of the breed as a whole is one sided. I acknowledge the potential harm that this breed is capable of if raised wrong. I understand peoples fear of them, even thoses who have no experience with a Pit. Their opinion has been formed not on experience, but that does not mean it is not valid. For me to base my opinion on the breed just from my experience of it is extremely narrow minded. On the flip side I am afraid of Akitas, as I have been bitten by one, but I don't condemn the breed as a whole. My experience was bad, but my opinion is not based on that one experience.
Sponsors are like Pits...some are loyal and gentle...some bite. Do I discount them all? No
I do however, advise people to take precautions when approaching one.
An opinion should not be discounted because it is not based on experience.
If I may give an example.
I am an animal lover...cats, dogs, birds...etc.
I happen to be the owner of Pit Bulls...I have had Pits as pets for many many years. I have NEVER had a bad experience with my Pits, they have all been loving, gentle and loyal pets. As a matter of fact my name bugsworth is the middle name we use on all our Pits papers...NOW just because I have never had a bad experience with a Pit does not mean that my opinion of the breed as a whole is one sided. I acknowledge the potential harm that this breed is capable of if raised wrong. I understand peoples fear of them, even thoses who have no experience with a Pit. Their opinion has been formed not on experience, but that does not mean it is not valid. For me to base my opinion on the breed just from my experience of it is extremely narrow minded. On the flip side I am afraid of Akitas, as I have been bitten by one, but I don't condemn the breed as a whole. My experience was bad, but my opinion is not based on that one experience.
Sponsors are like Pits...some are loyal and gentle...some bite. Do I discount them all? No
I do however, advise people to take precautions when approaching one.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
Don't trust a fellow alkie cos they might relapse and tell? LOL
If that happened to you I am sorry hun but you have to choose the right people. Saying stuff, is getting it out of your head...it loses power in the light.
If that happened to you I am sorry hun but you have to choose the right people. Saying stuff, is getting it out of your head...it loses power in the light.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Stone, I agree with you as I have stated...
You hit the nail on the head..."You have to choose the right people"
This is less about relapsing and telling and more about being able to handle what someone shares with you.
Many people drink to numb...to numb painful experiences...experiences that may have happened in childhood...not all sponsors are qualified to help someone with these issues.
You hit the nail on the head..."You have to choose the right people"
This is less about relapsing and telling and more about being able to handle what someone shares with you.
Many people drink to numb...to numb painful experiences...experiences that may have happened in childhood...not all sponsors are qualified to help someone with these issues.
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