The Black and White of the Big Book
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
The Black and White of the Big Book
WE, OF Alcoholics Anonymous, are more
than one hundred men and woman who have recovered
from a seemingly hope less state of mind and
body. To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE
HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.
than one hundred men and woman who have recovered
from a seemingly hope less state of mind and
body. To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE
HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.
I hear this used all the time as a qualifying statement when folks share or post online and I get the impression that it is used to kinda divide us into an us versus them camp. But what did the first 100 do? We know that AA was started in 1935 when Bill met Bob. The steps were written in 1938/39 ( in 30 minutes while Bill was lying in bed). I believe something like the first 43 got sober using the Oxford Group and not the 12 steps.
So much for precisely?
Unless you believe that maybe they weren't trying to be literal in the black and white sense. Maybe it was the theme of the book to provide something other than a scientific proven method ( we already can see that the first 100 were not test subjects of the 12 steps).
After much heated discussion chapter 5 was written. So almost 4 years after this thing began they started to write out what we should do to recover like them ( but we do not do exactly what they did!)
My point is not that the Big Book is flawed or untrue in any way. I believe in the message it contains 100%. But we get alot of talk about form and timelines and who is and who isn't a real alcoholic and how in the old days they would qualify you before you could sit in a meeting even though:
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself...
The trend towards orthodoxy seems to go against what the founding fathers of AA sought for us:
On Cultivating Tolerance
By Dr. Bob Smith
From the editorial column of the July 1944 AA Grapevine
During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the spiritual path; in the understanding of those who perhaps have been less fortunate in education advantages; and in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance with our own.
I am reminded in this connection of the picture of a hub with its radiating spokes. We all start at the outer circumference and approach our destination by one of many routes. To say that one spoke is much better than all the other spokes is true only in the sense of its being best suited to you as an individual. Human nature is such that without some degree of tolerance, each one of us might be inclined to believe that we have found the best or perhaps the shortest spoke. Without some tolerance, we might tend to become a bit smug or superior - which, of course, is not helpful to the person we are trying to help and may be quite painful or obnoxious to others. No one of us wishes to do anything that might act as a deterrent to the advancement of another - and a patronizing attitude can readily slow up this process.
Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.
It seems like every time I go to a meeting and hear the kind of crap like Having had a spiritual awakening as THEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE result.... ( they say "the" with great emphasis to let you know that there is no other way for an alcoholic in AA)
So what I get out of all this is that the goal of AA is to help you recover from alcoholism, the steps are an outline, but the means by which you work them is as individual as we are.
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize
we know only a little. God will constantly disclose
more to you and to us . Ask Him in your morning meditation
what you can do each day for the man who is
still sick. The answers will come, if your own house
is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something
you haven't got. See to it that your relationship
with Him is right, and great events will come to pass
for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact
for us.
We realize we know only a little?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by navysteve 
Foreward to the first edition page xiii
I hear this used all the time as a qualifying statement when folks share or post online and I get the impression that it is used to kinda divide us into an us versus them camp. But what did the first 100 do? We know that AA was started in 1935 when Bill met Bob. The steps were written in 1938/39 ( in 30 minutes while Bill was lying in bed). I believe something like the first 43 got sober using the Oxford Group and not the 12 steps.
I hear this used all the time as a qualifying statement when folks share or post online and I get the impression that it is used to kinda divide us into an us versus them camp. But what did the first 100 do? We know that AA was started in 1935 when Bill met Bob. The steps were written in 1938/39 ( in 30 minutes while Bill was lying in bed). I believe something like the first 43 got sober using the Oxford Group and not the 12 steps.
There were four years of trial and error , where the orginal AA's were using various technigues to get sober( including Oxford Group pricnciples). Wilson wrote the 12 steps as a synthesis of the 'best practices' which they used to get some sobriety.
IOW , these guys were doing the work in the 12 steps even though they weren't codified as such when they did them.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Personally - I take that passage as a clear message of the intention for putting the book together. It simplified things and made working with someone a lot easier when we went through that part of the book - because it was explained "this is what were gonna do - read the book and do what it says to do". Simple stuff. It wasn't about "their" opinion, or doing it their way....if something wasn't in the book, I had full license to challenge him on it. That situation has never come up.
How people use it to relate their recovery to others, or to feel separate is at the level of the individual. So, is the post aimed at certain individuals?
"We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism."
I know what you are saying about the "thhheeeeee" thing, but I get much more irritated by that Tamahawk chop the Atlanta Braves fans used to do
--bb qoutes borrowed from first ed
How people use it to relate their recovery to others, or to feel separate is at the level of the individual. So, is the post aimed at certain individuals?
"We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism."
I know what you are saying about the "thhheeeeee" thing, but I get much more irritated by that Tamahawk chop the Atlanta Braves fans used to do
--bb qoutes borrowed from first ed
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: far left of center
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by navysteve
It seems like every time I go to a meeting and hear the kind of crap like Having had a spiritual awakening as THEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE result.... ( they say "the" with great emphasis to let you know that there is no other way for an alcoholic in AA)
That does not mean, nor does it imply, the only way to have a spiritual awakening.
It means, you don't have to have had an awakening before taking the steps. It is a result and not a prerequisite.
Consider Step Two; it reads, "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" and not "Found that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." A subtle yet important difference.
Another example, Step Threes says "Made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God, as we understood him" and not "Turned our will and our lives over to the care of God."
You're correct, everyones path through the steps is their own. But the mile stones are the same. For some people, some of those milestones are in rapid succession, for others they are more spaced out in places.
For me, the moment I really understood Step 1, I took step 2 as I had no other choice.
My sponsor and I discused Step 3 at length; the moment I performed the action described in the big book for Step 3, I started Step 4.
5, 6 and 7 where complete on the same day.
The day I finished 8, I began 9.
The moment one begins 9, they are on step 10, 11 and 12.
While Bill may have written the steps in one night, in bed, the "original manuscript" was ultimately rejected by committee as
1. It was telling people what to do, not describing what they had done.
2. Not everyone had done the steps exactly in the manner described.
For example, Step Seven originally began "Humbly, on our Knees..." Many of the members did not take this step on their knees. This draws back to you original point about individuality, how one expresses humility is one's own course, and is not important as long as humility is expressed.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 58
I am one of those who emphasize "the" in the 12th step. The only purpose of the 12 steps is to create the spiritual awakening (originally the spiritual experience) that gives me the power to recover from alcoholism. I took the steps and the obsession is gone. I do not worry about "triggers" or any other situation. I have "ceased fighting" as described at the end of page 84.
I do believe there is a separation within AA. There are those who take the steps and practice the principles and there are those who rewrite the steps and do them any ole way they wish, if they do them at all. In Working with Others, page 89, "To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends - this is an experience you must not miss.." Like people will gather together. So there inevitable will be different camps. Those who do the program and those who don't.
Interestingly, the 12 steps are an expansion of the original 6 six tenets of the Oxford Group. Bill realized that there was too much room for interpretation in the original 6, so set out to be more precise. Consequently, the 12 steps were written. These are more precise than what the original proposals were. Bill also knew that alcoholics would not take kindly to being told they had to take the steps. Looking at my own experience, I could never be told what to do. It was my way. So the steps are suggested.
The quote from Bob that the OP used has as its first sentence: During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Note he says that those who have followed the program acquire the attribute of tolerance. This is not to say that others do not. However, Bob then talks about the newcomer, the eudcationally disadvantaged and the spriitual difference (like Catholic vs. Protestant). No where does he talk about the variations within AA.
As a matter of fact, and I cannot at this time find the reference, Bob said there is no room for interpretation of the steps. So I do not see how this reconciles with member advice to do whatever you want with the steps. Those who have taken the steps, according to the Big Book, change. Those who do not, seem to do fine, until they again drink.
All quotes from the Big Book are from the First Edition
I do believe there is a separation within AA. There are those who take the steps and practice the principles and there are those who rewrite the steps and do them any ole way they wish, if they do them at all. In Working with Others, page 89, "To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends - this is an experience you must not miss.." Like people will gather together. So there inevitable will be different camps. Those who do the program and those who don't.
Interestingly, the 12 steps are an expansion of the original 6 six tenets of the Oxford Group. Bill realized that there was too much room for interpretation in the original 6, so set out to be more precise. Consequently, the 12 steps were written. These are more precise than what the original proposals were. Bill also knew that alcoholics would not take kindly to being told they had to take the steps. Looking at my own experience, I could never be told what to do. It was my way. So the steps are suggested.
The quote from Bob that the OP used has as its first sentence: During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Note he says that those who have followed the program acquire the attribute of tolerance. This is not to say that others do not. However, Bob then talks about the newcomer, the eudcationally disadvantaged and the spriitual difference (like Catholic vs. Protestant). No where does he talk about the variations within AA.
As a matter of fact, and I cannot at this time find the reference, Bob said there is no room for interpretation of the steps. So I do not see how this reconciles with member advice to do whatever you want with the steps. Those who have taken the steps, according to the Big Book, change. Those who do not, seem to do fine, until they again drink.
All quotes from the Big Book are from the First Edition
Last edited by rockworm; 12-24-2009 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Include reference to BB
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 812
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
For me, I see the 12 steps as one method which enables us to find a Power by which we can live. Of course, some people already have a higher power concept when they enter the program, but active alcoholism prevents them from living through that Power.
There are most certainly other methods which will produce a spiritual awakening and allow one to find that Power in which they can live. In AA we are fortunate to have a method all laid out for us, instead of having to figure it out for ourselves. I know that if I had to figure out the method in which to have a spiritual awakening, well I wouldn't be posting here. I'd be drunk.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: far left of center
Posts: 237
futhermore, "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps" means simply that. The steps bring about a spiritual awakening. They don't necessarily bing the wife/kids/home/job back.
And spiritual awakening simply means a "profound alteration in one's reaction to life."
I had known for years I needed that, but I couldn't bring it about no matter how many times I was told "just dont drink", "remember your last drunk", "let go of the things you cannot change", "unlock your cell", "you gotta want it", "you must not really want it" and other Bull Sh!t we hear from people. . . even from many on these forums, as well as the rooms of AA.
Thank God the steps were presented to me, through example, and not dictation, from someone who had taken them himself.
And spiritual awakening simply means a "profound alteration in one's reaction to life."
I had known for years I needed that, but I couldn't bring it about no matter how many times I was told "just dont drink", "remember your last drunk", "let go of the things you cannot change", "unlock your cell", "you gotta want it", "you must not really want it" and other Bull Sh!t we hear from people. . . even from many on these forums, as well as the rooms of AA.
Thank God the steps were presented to me, through example, and not dictation, from someone who had taken them himself.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 58
basIam. Your experience reflects mine. I finally did what they did, which WAS the program as prescribed in the Big Book.
Prior to my recovery, I was around AA for 5 years. i even had 23 months in at one point before I went back out. I did everything they told me to do: Chaired, Secretaried, greeted, phoned, everything except the steps. No body talked to me about it, or at least I did not hear about them. I slowly went crazy and eventually took the drink. That was active alcoholism.
Prior to my recovery, I was around AA for 5 years. i even had 23 months in at one point before I went back out. I did everything they told me to do: Chaired, Secretaried, greeted, phoned, everything except the steps. No body talked to me about it, or at least I did not hear about them. I slowly went crazy and eventually took the drink. That was active alcoholism.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: far left of center
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by rockworm
No body talked to me about it, or at least I did not hear about them. I slowly went crazy and eventually took the drink. That was active alcoholism.
My sponsor, finally sat me down and said, "Whether they were or not, makes no difference. you weren't ready to hear it!"
a bit of my story:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2466168
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
There were four years of trial and error , where the orginal AA's were using various technigues to get sober( including Oxford Group pricnciples). Wilson wrote the 12 steps as a synthesis of the 'best practices' which they used to get some sobriety.
IOW , these guys were doing the work in the 12 steps even though they weren't codified as such when they did them.
IOW , these guys were doing the work in the 12 steps even though they weren't codified as such when they did them.
How people use it to relate their recovery to others, or to feel separate is at the level of the individual. So, is the post aimed at certain individuals?
I get the impression that it is used to kinda divide us into an us versus them camp.
I believe in the Big Book 100%. I also see that I have absolute freedom as to how I incorporate these steps into my life. For instance. some in AA:
Get recovery through the Back to Basics path
Big Book Step Study
Joe and Charlie
Rehab
None of these methods would fall into the black and white definition taken to the extreme of precisely how we...
Those who have taken the steps, according to the Big Book, change. Those who do not, seem to do fine, until they again drink
Most of the Big Book purists I meet in AA today are folks who were sober on fellowship or other things ( not steps) for years in AA. For me. I was 12 years sober when I hit a wall in AA and a drink became a potential solution. I got a new sponsor and began working the steps as a dying man clinging to a life preserver.
Thank God the steps were presented to me, through example, and not dictation, from someone who had taken them himself.
During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance.
I am not trying to stir argument here folks. This is something that continues to bother the hell out of me.
So what I get out of all this is that the goal of AA is to help you recover from alcoholism, the steps are an outline, but the means by which you work them is as individual as we are.
Whether an AA member does a 3 or 4 column inventory is up to the member.
I have watched AA's argue whether one is right or one is wrong. That I guess is at the heart of what is bugging me. I studies the Reformation of the church extensively a few years ago. I see the same thing happening in AA
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
A hub, with it's radiating spokes... we start at the circumference and reach our destination by one of many routes. Yea... that's my experience and I am glad Dr. Bob wrote that.
If I achieve a spiritual awakening and experience humility... If I try to align my will with God's, if I work to have God remove my defects and I make amends where it is possible... I move towards the hub... I've always taken direction from others, whether it be to me or to others, as a way to ensure the highest level of success... that the instructions, and at times delivered in a commanding way, as concern for the recovering alcoholic's life and recovery. But at times, sadly, there can be a judgmental tone... maybe that's how I hear it, but I believe that, at times, it is how it is said.
Precisely?
If I worked my step 4 first through the seven deadly sins, then back through an inventory of resentments and then introspectively in an attempt to better understand them... and I'm still able to go to God and ask for removal... does it really matter, to me and my recovery, if I fill in the list horizontally or vertically??
Thanx for your post Steve...
Mark
If I achieve a spiritual awakening and experience humility... If I try to align my will with God's, if I work to have God remove my defects and I make amends where it is possible... I move towards the hub... I've always taken direction from others, whether it be to me or to others, as a way to ensure the highest level of success... that the instructions, and at times delivered in a commanding way, as concern for the recovering alcoholic's life and recovery. But at times, sadly, there can be a judgmental tone... maybe that's how I hear it, but I believe that, at times, it is how it is said.
Precisely?
If I worked my step 4 first through the seven deadly sins, then back through an inventory of resentments and then introspectively in an attempt to better understand them... and I'm still able to go to God and ask for removal... does it really matter, to me and my recovery, if I fill in the list horizontally or vertically??
Thanx for your post Steve...
Mark
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Chuck C summed it up for me best when he said "we can't see until we can see, and we can't hear until we can hear"
This has been both my experience, and my observation, and for me, judging other peoples programs has been a form of spiritual sickness, and quite frankly, seems to be part of the path however, I went through it, and at some point so did every one of my "successful" sponsees
I love the Big Book, and the humility therein, one of the amusing things in my life is many of my friends with 20+ years in the program, people who are "happy, joyous and free", and according to me did the program 'wrong", yet there they are, with both more relaxed interior and exterior lives then I have, although I was one of the "doing it right" guys, and they were burning their fourth steps, working what I consider "MOTR" programs, although I wasn't familiar with that term then.
I think the Carpenter was right when he said judge a tree by it's fruit
If I am working "your" program, or taking "your" inventory, by definition I am not working my own, and as sure as night follows day, I am headed for pain, usually resentment.
The best I can do is work the steps and try to integrate them into my life, and my daily tenth step doesn't say anything about working your program, nor trying to make you admit you are wrong, but taking my own inventory, and admitting when I am wrong.
Sometimes I'm right too, but the important thing for me, is that information is for me, not you. The other important thing is even if we don't agree, and are diametrically opposed, we can both be right, that's why "Experience, Strength, and Hope" is such an incredibly powerful format for communication.
This has been both my experience, and my observation, and for me, judging other peoples programs has been a form of spiritual sickness, and quite frankly, seems to be part of the path however, I went through it, and at some point so did every one of my "successful" sponsees
I love the Big Book, and the humility therein, one of the amusing things in my life is many of my friends with 20+ years in the program, people who are "happy, joyous and free", and according to me did the program 'wrong", yet there they are, with both more relaxed interior and exterior lives then I have, although I was one of the "doing it right" guys, and they were burning their fourth steps, working what I consider "MOTR" programs, although I wasn't familiar with that term then.
I think the Carpenter was right when he said judge a tree by it's fruit
If I am working "your" program, or taking "your" inventory, by definition I am not working my own, and as sure as night follows day, I am headed for pain, usually resentment.
The best I can do is work the steps and try to integrate them into my life, and my daily tenth step doesn't say anything about working your program, nor trying to make you admit you are wrong, but taking my own inventory, and admitting when I am wrong.
Sometimes I'm right too, but the important thing for me, is that information is for me, not you. The other important thing is even if we don't agree, and are diametrically opposed, we can both be right, that's why "Experience, Strength, and Hope" is such an incredibly powerful format for communication.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Living in Today!
Posts: 3,945
Originally Posted by Ago
Chuck C summed it up for me best when he said "we can't see until we can see, and we can't hear until we can hear"
This has been both my experience, and my observation, and for me, judging other peoples programs has been a form of spiritual sickness, and quite frankly, seems to be part of the path however, I went through it, and at some point so did every one of my "successful" sponsees
I love the Big Book, and the humility therein, one of the amusing things in my life is many of my friends with 20+ years in the program, people who are "happy, joyous and free", and according to me did the program 'wrong", yet there they are, with both more relaxed interior and exterior lives then I have, although I was one of the "doing it right" guys, and they were burning their fourth steps, working what I consider "MOTR" programs, although I wasn't familiar with that term then.
I think the Carpenter was right when he said judge a tree by it's fruit
If I am working "your" program, or taking "your" inventory, by definition I am not working my own, and as sure as night follows day, I am headed for pain, usually resentment.
The best I can do is work the steps and try to integrate them into my life, and my daily tenth step doesn't say anything about working your program, nor trying to make you admit you are wrong, but taking my own inventory, and admitting when I am wrong.
Sometimes I'm right too, but the important thing for me, is that information is for me, not you. The other important thing is even if we don't agree, and are diametrically opposed, we can both be right, that's why "Experience, Strength, and Hope" is such an incredibly powerful format for communication.
This has been both my experience, and my observation, and for me, judging other peoples programs has been a form of spiritual sickness, and quite frankly, seems to be part of the path however, I went through it, and at some point so did every one of my "successful" sponsees
I love the Big Book, and the humility therein, one of the amusing things in my life is many of my friends with 20+ years in the program, people who are "happy, joyous and free", and according to me did the program 'wrong", yet there they are, with both more relaxed interior and exterior lives then I have, although I was one of the "doing it right" guys, and they were burning their fourth steps, working what I consider "MOTR" programs, although I wasn't familiar with that term then.
I think the Carpenter was right when he said judge a tree by it's fruit
If I am working "your" program, or taking "your" inventory, by definition I am not working my own, and as sure as night follows day, I am headed for pain, usually resentment.
The best I can do is work the steps and try to integrate them into my life, and my daily tenth step doesn't say anything about working your program, nor trying to make you admit you are wrong, but taking my own inventory, and admitting when I am wrong.
Sometimes I'm right too, but the important thing for me, is that information is for me, not you. The other important thing is even if we don't agree, and are diametrically opposed, we can both be right, that's why "Experience, Strength, and Hope" is such an incredibly powerful format for communication.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Yes, I'm not interested in meetings where people share about other people's experience. I am laughing so hard at "THHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"!!!
sh!te!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I have stated before that there probably isn't a right way or a wrong way, but that there may be a best way in AA and that is the way laid out in the book.
That being said, I make no apologies for the fact that I am a by-the-book orthodox AA. When it says pray we pray and when it says write we write. And I believe that any message that you hear in AA that doesn't speak of recovering from alcoholism as a result of taking the course of action laid out in a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous," isn't AA. It may be sobriety, it may be a spiritual awakening, but it isn't AA.
The ironic part about the above statement is that AA can encompass other paths. For me, the steps are in and of themselves a spiritual path. And AA is in and of itself sufficient.
To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.
That being said, I make no apologies for the fact that I am a by-the-book orthodox AA. When it says pray we pray and when it says write we write. And I believe that any message that you hear in AA that doesn't speak of recovering from alcoholism as a result of taking the course of action laid out in a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous," isn't AA. It may be sobriety, it may be a spiritual awakening, but it isn't AA.
The ironic part about the above statement is that AA can encompass other paths. For me, the steps are in and of themselves a spiritual path. And AA is in and of itself sufficient.
To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by jimhere
I have stated before that there probably isn't a right way or a wrong way, but that there may be a best way in AA and that is the way laid out in the book.
That being said, I make no apologies for the fact that I am a by-the-book orthodox AA. When it says pray we pray and when it says write we write. And I believe that any message that you hear in AA that doesn't speak of recovering from alcoholism as a result of taking the course of action laid out in a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous," isn't AA. It may be sobriety, it may be a spiritual awakening, but it isn't AA.
The ironic part about the above statement is that AA can encompass other paths. For me, the steps are in and of themselves a spiritual path. And AA is in and of itself sufficient.
To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.
That being said, I make no apologies for the fact that I am a by-the-book orthodox AA. When it says pray we pray and when it says write we write. And I believe that any message that you hear in AA that doesn't speak of recovering from alcoholism as a result of taking the course of action laid out in a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous," isn't AA. It may be sobriety, it may be a spiritual awakening, but it isn't AA.
The ironic part about the above statement is that AA can encompass other paths. For me, the steps are in and of themselves a spiritual path. And AA is in and of itself sufficient.
To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.
So what if they weren't as definite, it only says usually, it doesn't say every time, so what if I use 4 columns, in order to see "my part", like it says to do, but you use 3 columns because 4 columns is the theater of the lie or whatever, since you only do 3 columns is what you do "not AA"? or since we interpret the part differently where it says:
Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tr ied to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.
Is what you are doing "not AA"? Is what I am doing "not AA"
because we interpret that to say something different?
What about the people who AREN'T as definite as that example, the BB says only usually, is what they are doing "not AA"? They are following instructions after all.
What about the third step, where the wording is of course quite optional, provided it's voiced without reservation.
I watch people work the steps exactly as they are written down repeatedly, and quite frankly completely miss the point of the them, that just spout the BB in meetings yet don't have the steps integrated in their lives, I watch people work the steps differently then I do, or agree with doing, and yet are happy, joyous and free, who integrated the steps into their lives, my point is who am I to judge whether what YOU are doing is "AA" or not. Who died and made ME God?
I watch people all of the time who worked the steps EXACTLY out of the book, and yet there they are, bedeviled by resentments on a daily basis, frequently at people who don't work the program "their way"
Who is the dummy in that picture?
The Buddha said a few things I think are appropriate, one is people with strong opinions just run around and bother other people, and my teachings are like a raft to cross a river, why carry the raft on your head after you have crossed the river? Winston Churchill also said something appropriate, fanatics are people who can't change their mind and who won't change the subject
The steps are about me being happy joyous and free, and something for me to pass on freely to those who want what I have, to those who choose a different path, even inside the same format of the 12 steps, or outside, peace be upon them, and it's not up to me to judge whether it's "AA" or not
Jack Kornfield talks about some of the signs of spiritual maturity are being comfortable with paradox, about letting go of Dogma, and not being so sure your way is the only way, and about being flexible, and you know, just because it's not in the holy of holies, The Big Book, doesn't make it not true, ya know?
BB 1st ed et al
At the end of the day, you want what I have, I'll show you what I did, if not, share your path me, and we can learn and grow together, if we don't agree doesn't make one of us wrong, it means we have a different experience, and the moment I stop being teachable and become rigid, my descent into a hell on Earth is assured.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Ago said:
"I am also a "by the book orthodox" AA, my point is for me I am getting to the point where "your" program is unimportant to me, who am I to decide if it's "AA" or not AA, example, in the fourth step, it says "we were usually as definite as this example:"
So what if they weren't as definite, it only says usually, it doesn't say every time, so what if I use 4 columns, in order to see "my part", like it says to do, but you use 3 columns because 4 columns is the theater of the lie or whatever, since you only do 3 columns is what you do "not AA"? or since we interpret the part differently where it says:
Quote:
Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tr ied to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.
We placed them before us in Black and White seems pretty specific to me, yet some people choose not to do that. Is what they are doing "not AA"?"
Now let me reiterate what I said:
"To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.'
Andrew, obviously you & I differ a bit on "mechanics & technique," but I don't think that has stopped us from setting those differences aside to do what all this work is setting us up for, from doing what our primary spiritual aim is, which is Twelfth-Step work. And I don't believe it has gotten in the way of what I call friendship. That goes for the relationship I have with our OP as well.
As for what is AA and what isn't AA, to me it is more black & white. If you've recovered by taking the course of action laid out in that book, regardless of mechanics, technique, timeline, etc., and then you carry that message in AA, that is AA.
If you've recovered via some other approach or spiritual path, I'm glad for you. But it isn't AA, so therefore don't call it AA.
My personal spiritual approach is quite synchrenistic. Much of my thinking has been influenced by some of the great Catholic mystics like Meister Eckhart and Thomas Merton. Yet I am also influenced by people like Jack Kornfield and Sharon Salzberg and my practice reflects that. I burn sage as part of my prayer practice and embrace the philosophy of The Red Road. Yet, when I am moved to do so, I go sit with the Quakers. Christmas Eve, I went to a midnight mass in the big cathedral downtown. I can't call my practice Christianity or Catholicism because it isn't. I can't call it Buddhist because it isn't. I can't call any of it AA because it isn't. Yet my practice of 10, 11, & 12 encompasses all of those paths and I would not have found them without AA.
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
__________________
"I am also a "by the book orthodox" AA, my point is for me I am getting to the point where "your" program is unimportant to me, who am I to decide if it's "AA" or not AA, example, in the fourth step, it says "we were usually as definite as this example:"
So what if they weren't as definite, it only says usually, it doesn't say every time, so what if I use 4 columns, in order to see "my part", like it says to do, but you use 3 columns because 4 columns is the theater of the lie or whatever, since you only do 3 columns is what you do "not AA"? or since we interpret the part differently where it says:
Quote:
Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tr ied to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.
We placed them before us in Black and White seems pretty specific to me, yet some people choose not to do that. Is what they are doing "not AA"?"
Now let me reiterate what I said:
"To me, when it says that we have a way out upon which we can absolutely agree and join in brotherly harmonious action, it doesn't mean that we all agree on every little detail. We can disagree on approach, style, mechanics, and technique. But we can aside those differences and agree that the program of recovery is laid out in the book. And then we can join together in the carrying of that message to the next sufferer.'
Andrew, obviously you & I differ a bit on "mechanics & technique," but I don't think that has stopped us from setting those differences aside to do what all this work is setting us up for, from doing what our primary spiritual aim is, which is Twelfth-Step work. And I don't believe it has gotten in the way of what I call friendship. That goes for the relationship I have with our OP as well.
As for what is AA and what isn't AA, to me it is more black & white. If you've recovered by taking the course of action laid out in that book, regardless of mechanics, technique, timeline, etc., and then you carry that message in AA, that is AA.
If you've recovered via some other approach or spiritual path, I'm glad for you. But it isn't AA, so therefore don't call it AA.
My personal spiritual approach is quite synchrenistic. Much of my thinking has been influenced by some of the great Catholic mystics like Meister Eckhart and Thomas Merton. Yet I am also influenced by people like Jack Kornfield and Sharon Salzberg and my practice reflects that. I burn sage as part of my prayer practice and embrace the philosophy of The Red Road. Yet, when I am moved to do so, I go sit with the Quakers. Christmas Eve, I went to a midnight mass in the big cathedral downtown. I can't call my practice Christianity or Catholicism because it isn't. I can't call it Buddhist because it isn't. I can't call any of it AA because it isn't. Yet my practice of 10, 11, & 12 encompasses all of those paths and I would not have found them without AA.
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
__________________
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
"This is something that continues to bother the hell out of me."
Have you tried running this through the aforementioned inventory process Steve?
'I am not trying to stir argument here folks.'
Oh come on Steve, don't ******** us. You like to sir the pot as much as I do-LOL!
Have you tried running this through the aforementioned inventory process Steve?
'I am not trying to stir argument here folks.'
Oh come on Steve, don't ******** us. You like to sir the pot as much as I do-LOL!
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
