I have a question
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Originally Posted by MorningGlory
How is the strong physical craving dealt with differently than the voice?
It's much harder to push that aside and make it separate.
It's much harder to push that aside and make it separate.
AV doesn't have to be an actual voice or inner dialogue, it can also be disguised as a feeling or thought or idea/suggestion that my body physically needs or craves alcohol. When I first quit, I found my AV could even bring the smell of alcohol into my mind and I'd have physical reactions like heart beating faster, etc. But really, it's the AV trying another way in and if identified as such, physical cravings can be separated from and dismissed the same way.
In AVRT, the idea that a physical craving is much harder to push aside would be classed as AV, since it suggests a situation in which one would not be able to resist the urge to drink. That suggests the possibility of future drinking, so one using the AVRT would dismiss it as AV.
I think that I only physically craved alcohol when I was detoxing. I tapered off so I could minimize withdrawal symptoms. Once that was over, probably 3-7 days, I wasn’t physically addicted anymore and I my body didn’t physically crave alcohol.
The mind is powerful and it can make you feel all kinds of things. Maybe I was lucky as I really only had to deal with mental craving after detoxing and I could dismiss that as AV.
The mind is powerful and it can make you feel all kinds of things. Maybe I was lucky as I really only had to deal with mental craving after detoxing and I could dismiss that as AV.
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I posit that the idea that mental craving and physical craving are somehow different comes straight from the AV.
Whether they are or aren't different or harder doesn't really matter, the fact is that idea suggests the possibility of future drinking, so it's put in the same category of identify/dismiss.
Whether they are or aren't different or harder doesn't really matter, the fact is that idea suggests the possibility of future drinking, so it's put in the same category of identify/dismiss.
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Agreed. But the physical crave is a sensation. Not just a thought. Per the literature--no distinction. In reality, an important one.
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Originally Posted by daredevil
In reality, an important one.
My AV would like me to think it's different, and thus harder...maybe even impossible to resist.
Why should that distinction be made? Is a sensation more harmful than a thought?
The distinction is important because you can change your thoughts but not really your sensations You could say for example that I don't "crave" a drink, I want a drink, which I think is actually a more accurate description. You can then reassess things and decide, for example, that you don't really want to drink but would prefer to be sober and clear-headed instead.
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Sometimes the sensation arises out of a thought, but sometimes it precedes it. But I am not disputing how AVRT sees it. That, I get.
As a practical matter, recognition of the sensation, or thought, whichever the order, helps in dissociating from it.
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Originally Posted by AlericB
You could say for example that I don't "crave" a drink, I want a drink, which I think is actually a more accurate description. You can then reassess things and decide, for example, that you don't really want to drink but would prefer to be sober and clear-headed instead.
Originally Posted by AlericB
The distinction is important because you can change your thoughts but not really your sensations
Next Question. How do you ignore something that seems to be screaming at you constantly. I'm am trying to think of this in terms of quitting smoking. I can relate to that. The longest I went without smoking was 5 weeks and it never got easier. It was constant.
My answer was concerning daredevil's point which was not an AVRT one. I wasn't aware that the OP had asked for replies in only AVRT terms.
I don’t think ignoring thoughts or cravings is helpful. I think instead that a focused mindful awareness on the reaction to the thought is more helpful. This allows a detachment or separation from the thought with the goal of becoming the observer of the thought rather than the thinker. This allows some emotional elbow room, some time where the reaction can become awareness and recognition along the lines of ‘Ah Ha! You again! It doesn’t matter what thoughts or feelings you send along, it doesn’t matter. It will never matter because I have made my decision, once and for all. I won’t smoke or drink in this present moment. I won’t do it later, either. I will never do it, and I will not ever change my mind.’ Then, go and do something, something that non smokers or non drinkers do.
Notice I said ‘you again’, as we separate our self from the urge or craving. By making the vow, the urge comes from a part of us that no longer is in charge. That urge comes from that perverted and misguided survival drive which believes that smoking or drinking are essential to our survival. Well, no, that’s false. They may be essential to ‘IT’s’ survival, but too bad for IT.
The urge passes, but since you made this eternal vow unconditionally, it’s irrelevant when or even if it passes. This last part is important, MG, and is an important part of the ‘never again’ statement. That door is closed, that ship has sailed. It’s done.
This is how I see AVRT anyway.
Notice I said ‘you again’, as we separate our self from the urge or craving. By making the vow, the urge comes from a part of us that no longer is in charge. That urge comes from that perverted and misguided survival drive which believes that smoking or drinking are essential to our survival. Well, no, that’s false. They may be essential to ‘IT’s’ survival, but too bad for IT.
The urge passes, but since you made this eternal vow unconditionally, it’s irrelevant when or even if it passes. This last part is important, MG, and is an important part of the ‘never again’ statement. That door is closed, that ship has sailed. It’s done.
This is how I see AVRT anyway.
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No, I don't think there is any restriction on who can post here. I just thought MG's question was on how to get explain how the AVRT is used, for example when explaining it to someone who wants to quit and is interested in applying the technique. That's why I was answering from the AVRT framework?
Trimpey's book has a number of specific strategies to address what he calls "beast attacks". There is a chapter entitiled "The Beast that keeps coming back". It outlines specific actions (or strategies)on can use like tracking beast activity, addiction diction, labeling, taking a picture of your beast, etc.
The beast noise can seem incessant, almost overwhelming, but the idea that it will last forever and never let up is AV, since it's telling you in a way "There's no way you're going to be able to withstand this nonstop badgering, you'll cave and smoke" is suggesting future smoking. The book suggests separation and recognition that the Beast is suffering from not smoking, but that it's suffering is not your suffering. *You* are actually quit happy about not smoking. Of course it's going to whine and complain...it wants what it wants.
Originally Posted by MG
Next Question. How do you ignore something that seems to be screaming at you constantly. I'm am trying to think of this in terms of quitting smoking. I can relate to that. The longest I went without smoking was 5 weeks and it never got easier. It was constant.
The beast noise can seem incessant, almost overwhelming, but the idea that it will last forever and never let up is AV, since it's telling you in a way "There's no way you're going to be able to withstand this nonstop badgering, you'll cave and smoke" is suggesting future smoking. The book suggests separation and recognition that the Beast is suffering from not smoking, but that it's suffering is not your suffering. *You* are actually quit happy about not smoking. Of course it's going to whine and complain...it wants what it wants.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
I don’t think ignoring thoughts or cravings is helpful.
I can look at a thought of "a drink (or smoke) would be great" or "I/we need a drink (or smoke)" and see it as craving, shrug my shoulders, and think "yeah not happenin" and move on. That's ignoring or dismissing to me.
I agree Soberlicious, of course, as we see this similarly. I ignore the AV in that It requires no action from me, there is nothing It can do that can move me to drink.
Ignoring Its presence might seem to be problematic to the initiate. It's there I suggest accepting Its presence. It will come and go and there is nothing I can do about It. I accept that it will pop up whenever it may, knowing that it has become irrelevant, there is nothing I need do about It.
Acceptance is a powerful non-action, and I find it to be helpful AF.
Ignoring Its presence might seem to be problematic to the initiate. It's there I suggest accepting Its presence. It will come and go and there is nothing I can do about It. I accept that it will pop up whenever it may, knowing that it has become irrelevant, there is nothing I need do about It.
Acceptance is a powerful non-action, and I find it to be helpful AF.
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Originally Posted by frshstart57
Ignoring Its presence might seem to be problematic to the initiate.
Acceptance is a powerful non-action, and I find it to be helpful AF.
Addiction can be thought of as an endless cycle between withdrawal and consummation. Withdrawal feels bad, consummation (getting the fix) feels good. Those feelings of deprivation -- commonly called cravings -- are not my own, but that of the Beast.
The Beast is a 'bogus' survival drive, since it did not always exist, and because the body does not actually need nicotine, or alcohol, or any other hedonic drugs in order to survive.
That said, one of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice is to conceal its own existence, and by extension, that of the Beast. The AV will try and make it appear that the Beast's suffering from deprivation is in fact your own suffering, and that its sense of impending death by deprivation is your own.
See:
It never got easier for whom? For you, or for IT?
You can separate, for example...
"IT thinks IT is dying, and while I feel IT suffering, ITs suffering from deprivation is not actually my suffering. IT is dying, but I am not dying. I am living free."
As long as the Option of smoking some more is possible, the Beast will bark away. It screens all thinking for opportunities to get a fix, and for any impending plans to cut off the supply. Trimpey uses the example of an airplane flight with regard to smoking.
When smokers board the plane, their Beasts largely hunker down, knowing that there will be no consummation for some time. As soon as the airport terminal is in sight, however, their Beasts 'wake up', wild with anticipation, and people start looking for their cigarettes.
The Big Plan is an airplane flight that never lands.
MG,
When I quit smoking many years ago I used a form of Big Plan w/o knowing it.
I had tried to stop a few times unsuccessfully.
I then just decided that starting again would mean stopping again, and I never wanted to go through the suffering of stopping again.
So I decided that no matter what I would never smoke again. My unknowing big plan.
And taking that once and for all decision meant that it did not matter how much I wanted to smoke, which was a lot, I was never going to do it because I had decided.
And I cannot explain why, but this time it wasn't will power, it was the fact that the decision had been taken.
Smoking is a bear, but if I stopped, anyone can, believe me.
XX
When I quit smoking many years ago I used a form of Big Plan w/o knowing it.
I had tried to stop a few times unsuccessfully.
I then just decided that starting again would mean stopping again, and I never wanted to go through the suffering of stopping again.
So I decided that no matter what I would never smoke again. My unknowing big plan.
And taking that once and for all decision meant that it did not matter how much I wanted to smoke, which was a lot, I was never going to do it because I had decided.
And I cannot explain why, but this time it wasn't will power, it was the fact that the decision had been taken.
Smoking is a bear, but if I stopped, anyone can, believe me.
XX
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