I have a question
I had a friend who quit smoking by allowing himself to smoke whenever he REALLY wanted to. Kept a pack in his car just in case.
Hasn't smoked for over 25 years.
Once I stopped I really stopped UNTIL rehab, over 9 years. Picked it up for about 3 months. The whole time I was aware of how crappy they tasted, unlike the first stint, where I felt more like MG. I just didn't buy a pack one day and that was that.
Hasn't smoked for over 25 years.
Once I stopped I really stopped UNTIL rehab, over 9 years. Picked it up for about 3 months. The whole time I was aware of how crappy they tasted, unlike the first stint, where I felt more like MG. I just didn't buy a pack one day and that was that.
A friend's mum does something similar and carries a packet of 10 in her handbag even though she hasn't smoked for 30+ years.
I wouldn't do that myself and not just because I don't usually carry a handbag but I see why she does it which is to carry a reminder that quitting is a choice and not a deprivation.
I wouldn't do that myself and not just because I don't usually carry a handbag but I see why she does it which is to carry a reminder that quitting is a choice and not a deprivation.
thanks for the Trimpey / Ellis excerpt, interesting reading
horses for courses I suppose. I did the ABC's & CBA's in full in the early days, but these days if my AV pipes up I can dismiss it immediately, without having to resort to reasoning. I suspect that, in effect, it's pretty similar to AVRT, even though the path to that point has been rather different.
if someone finds they're trying to do ABC's & CBA's from the ground up each time & they're not working for them, then AVRT may well be a better choice. it's always good to have options
I really like this last sentence from Trimpey’s quote within TU’s quote. I KNOW that for myself, this has made it SOOooo easy over the decades to count the time I spend on “to drink or not to drink” in seconds, (not even minutes, let alone hours and days) spent with CBAs and ABCs.
if someone finds they're trying to do ABC's & CBA's from the ground up each time & they're not working for them, then AVRT may well be a better choice. it's always good to have options
It would be rather irrational for the Beast, or any other living thing, for that matter, to not try and survive, no? How exactly can you challenge a living creature's desire to stay alive?
No matter what you say to 'dispute' the AV, you are effectively telling the Beast "I want you to die. Would you please kindly agree with me, and just go away and starve, because I think that it is irrational for you to live?"
Would you buy into that? Would anyone? You are essentially trying to fight the Beast's perfect rationality with an absurd, irrational argument, while also threatening its life.
It's not a question of which way is 'right' or 'wrong'. It's a pragmatic matter of what works for the individual.
If you can stay abstinent by challenging any conflicting thoughts and beliefs about drinking you may have then obviously that's fine for you.
If you can't resolve your conflicting thoughts through a process of disputation then you may find it useful to introduce the idea of a 'Beast' and to dissociate from it's thinking and of course that's equally fine.
There is no one way that will work best for everyone.
If you can stay abstinent by challenging any conflicting thoughts and beliefs about drinking you may have then obviously that's fine for you.
If you can't resolve your conflicting thoughts through a process of disputation then you may find it useful to introduce the idea of a 'Beast' and to dissociate from it's thinking and of course that's equally fine.
There is no one way that will work best for everyone.
It's not a question of which way is 'right' or 'wrong'. It's a pragmatic matter of what works for the individual.
If you can stay abstinent by challenging any conflicting thoughts and beliefs about drinking you may have then obviously that's fine for you.
If you can't resolve your conflicting thoughts through a process of disputation then you may find it useful to introduce the idea of a 'Beast' and to dissociate from it's thinking and of course that's equally fine.
There is no one way that will work best for everyone.
If you can stay abstinent by challenging any conflicting thoughts and beliefs about drinking you may have then obviously that's fine for you.
If you can't resolve your conflicting thoughts through a process of disputation then you may find it useful to introduce the idea of a 'Beast' and to dissociate from it's thinking and of course that's equally fine.
There is no one way that will work best for everyone.
I’m sure MG has tried all kinds of disputation, and has resolved to adopt her Smokey the Beast’s rationality, at least for the time being. Fortunately, MG can still utilize AVRT at any time, and use the lore of addiction recovery that’s been around for centuries to immediately stop smoking forever.
A friend's mum does something similar and carries a packet of 10 in her handbag even though she hasn't smoked for 30+ years.
I wouldn't do that myself and not just because I don't usually carry a handbag but I see why she does it which is to carry a reminder that quitting is a choice and not a deprivation.
I wouldn't do that myself and not just because I don't usually carry a handbag but I see why she does it which is to carry a reminder that quitting is a choice and not a deprivation.
I see it as a matter of he is not so wedded to a theory of counseling, that he can’t set it aside for a method that will allow him to spend only seconds per year, instead of wrangling with choice after choice after choice down the road as his life changes and just maybe it will be perfectly rational to try drinking again.
This compares to adopting the model of an eternal Beast with it's eternal bark which, to paraphrase, you will have to "wrangle with day after day after day down the road. "
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Join Date: Feb 2018
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That's what REBT is: a theory of counseling. It wasn't designed for addiction recovery, although it can be the foundation of a recovery modality. Hence, poking holes in disputation as it relates to silencing the AV is a sophomoric endeavor that results in circular, ineffectual reasoning that neither benefits adherents nor detractors.
Agreed. It all depends on what your starting point is.
If you start by saying that your excessive drinking has created an artificial survival drive - the Beast - which you can never eradicate, any more than you can your hunger drive, then you will always be subject to AV - the Beast's bark - which will be trying to get you to drink. However, that starting point is an assumption, not a scientifically verified, or even verifiable, fact.
You can start off with other asssumptions, e.g. that drinking is a matter of choice which you are responsible for, and if you do then you are in a whole different paradigm where concepts like the Beast and it's bark (AV) do not apply.
Recovery, like psychology, may interact with science at certain points but on the whole is more an art than a science and, I believe, always will be.
If you start by saying that your excessive drinking has created an artificial survival drive - the Beast - which you can never eradicate, any more than you can your hunger drive, then you will always be subject to AV - the Beast's bark - which will be trying to get you to drink. However, that starting point is an assumption, not a scientifically verified, or even verifiable, fact.
You can start off with other asssumptions, e.g. that drinking is a matter of choice which you are responsible for, and if you do then you are in a whole different paradigm where concepts like the Beast and it's bark (AV) do not apply.
Recovery, like psychology, may interact with science at certain points but on the whole is more an art than a science and, I believe, always will be.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
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and re art JT thinks as well eh ? a la The Art of AVRT
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
That's what REBT is: a theory of counseling. It wasn't designed for addiction recovery, although it can be the foundation of a recovery modality. Hence, poking holes in disputation as it relates to silencing the AV is a sophomoric endeavor that results in circular, ineffectual reasoning that neither benefits adherents nor detractors.
Making a Big Plan will 'show' you the AV, after making a BP any thought that goes against the BP is AV and all you need to do is separate from and dismiss it.
AVRT is a technique that when utilized allows for the desire and abstinence to co-exist. But without a BP there is no AVRT.
Re. JT, he does present the structural model as a biological fact and not as a theory.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
And as far as I understand AVRT does not question personal responsibility in regards to the choice to drink or smoke or whatever .
Does AVRT question your capacity for self-responsibility and freedom of choice as far as your drinking use goes by claiming it permanently removes this via the Big Plan?
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
I think you are asking if one decides to permanently abstain are they not actually then admitting that they do not trust themselves to drink responsibly again, ?
If the question were put to me, I think I could drink responsibly and not, but I don't drink , so the question is moot. Truth be told, even theoretic permanence throws my AV into a tizzy, lol.
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