I have a question
No, I am asking if one decides to permanently abstain are they then somehow rendered incapable of ever drinking again, that is, they do not have to carry any further burden of responsibility. With respect, it seems to me that this is the import of most of the recent AVRT teaching here - a long way from how the common man/woman quits IMO.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
No, I am asking if one decides to permanently abstain are they then somehow rendered incapable of ever drinking again, that is, they do not have to carry any further burden of responsibility. With respect, it seems to me that this is the import of most of the recent AVRT teaching here - a long way from how the common man/woman quits IMO.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
If by common you mean the greatest number, most statistics( yeah I know) suggest the common persons( throughout the centuries) that ended their substance abuse issues, just 'up and quit' and AVRT is basically then the distillation of that process presented with its own nomenclature.
The phenomenon predates 'recovery' .
The phenomenon predates 'recovery' .
Why do I never get a straight answer to this?
My question is: Do you think that when you make a Big Plan you are responsible for keeping it or do you agree with the recent "teaching" here that a Big Plan is, somehow, unbreakable and so you are not required to be responsible for keeping to it throughout your life?
This is not a pedantic point. It goes to the heart of who we are: are we responsible for our actions or aren't we?
My question is: Do you think that when you make a Big Plan you are responsible for keeping it or do you agree with the recent "teaching" here that a Big Plan is, somehow, unbreakable and so you are not required to be responsible for keeping to it throughout your life?
This is not a pedantic point. It goes to the heart of who we are: are we responsible for our actions or aren't we?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 572
AlericB,
It’s only unbreakable if a person keeps it (which is the intention when making it). I don’t suppose a BP absolves personal accountability. I see it more as an unbreakable resolve than an unbreakable promise; after all you need an unbreakable resolve to stick with the big plan over the course of a lifetime.
It’s only unbreakable if a person keeps it (which is the intention when making it). I don’t suppose a BP absolves personal accountability. I see it more as an unbreakable resolve than an unbreakable promise; after all you need an unbreakable resolve to stick with the big plan over the course of a lifetime.
daredevil,
I think 'resolve' is a better word than 'promise' when taking about changing substance use because it better conveys the notion that continuing action is required, and it's unbreakable only if your actions make it so.
I think 'resolve' is a better word than 'promise' when taking about changing substance use because it better conveys the notion that continuing action is required, and it's unbreakable only if your actions make it so.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by AlericB
the notion that continuing action is required
I don't do any action continuously in regards to my abstinence. I like it that way.
Inaction == still an action.
Indecision == still a decision.
I always used to answer questions like this 'it depends'.
I like to look at the potentially unalterable and immutable in terms of context, and if I understand correctly the secular way embraces a more fluid context so as not to absolve one from accountability but allow for said context to frame the execution of The Plan.
There's a similar dichotomy in the Christian realm with freewill v. predestination. In my assessment neither allow the adherent to lean on cheap grace.
Am I off base here?
*ducks*
Indecision == still a decision.
Why do I never get a straight answer to this?
My question is: Do you think that when you make a Big Plan you are responsible for keeping it or do you agree with the recent "teaching" here that a Big Plan is, somehow, unbreakable and so you are not required to be responsible for keeping to it throughout your life?
This is not a pedantic point. It goes to the heart of who we are: are we responsible for our actions or aren't we?
My question is: Do you think that when you make a Big Plan you are responsible for keeping it or do you agree with the recent "teaching" here that a Big Plan is, somehow, unbreakable and so you are not required to be responsible for keeping to it throughout your life?
This is not a pedantic point. It goes to the heart of who we are: are we responsible for our actions or aren't we?
I like to look at the potentially unalterable and immutable in terms of context, and if I understand correctly the secular way embraces a more fluid context so as not to absolve one from accountability but allow for said context to frame the execution of The Plan.
There's a similar dichotomy in the Christian realm with freewill v. predestination. In my assessment neither allow the adherent to lean on cheap grace.
Am I off base here?
*ducks*
No, I am asking if one decides to permanently abstain are they then somehow rendered incapable of ever drinking again, that is, they do not have to carry any further burden of responsibility. With respect, it seems to me that this is the import of most of the recent AVRT teaching here - a long way from how the common man/woman quits IMO.
There is nothing recent about this, as far as AVRT is concerned.
There are a bunch of secular ways, but the Big Plan seems to be specific to a particular secular way, RR. I heard "DDNMW" a lot in Lifering, which I suppose is a Plan of sorts, don't drink no matter what, but there it's accompanied by a whole bunch of tools you use to help you achieve that - mostly action tools, not thinking cerebral tools. I'm less familiar with SMART, but they are big on particular kinds of tools, and using those tools is a kind of plan. I suppose one could consider working the steps in 12-step as a different kind of (not really secular) Plan, too. I think plans in general are huge and common among many flavors of addiction recovery, secular and otherwise, but they do differ a lot in the details.
Inaction == still an action.
Indecision == still a decision.
I always used to answer questions like this 'it depends'.
I like to look at the potentially unalterable and immutable in terms of context, and if I understand correctly the secular way embraces a more fluid context so as not to absolve one from accountability but allow for said context to frame the execution of The Plan.
There's a similar dichotomy in the Christian realm with freewill v. predestination. In my assessment neither allow the adherent to lean on cheap grace.
Am I off base here?
*ducks*
Indecision == still a decision.
I always used to answer questions like this 'it depends'.
I like to look at the potentially unalterable and immutable in terms of context, and if I understand correctly the secular way embraces a more fluid context so as not to absolve one from accountability but allow for said context to frame the execution of The Plan.
There's a similar dichotomy in the Christian realm with freewill v. predestination. In my assessment neither allow the adherent to lean on cheap grace.
Am I off base here?
*ducks*
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by daredevil
Not drinking is an action.
Originally Posted by TheToddman
Inaction == still an action.
Indecision == still a decision.
Indecision == still a decision.
Or something like that.
If you start by saying that your excessive drinking has created an artificial survival drive - the Beast - which you can never eradicate, any more than you can your hunger drive, then you will always be subject to AV - the Beast's bark - which will be trying to get you to drink.
We do not fear the Beast, because all it can do is bark. That bark, in and of itself, is harmless, much like other thoughts that may cross through our minds.
AVRT is recovery with an attitude. No fear.
There is no wrangling, because with a Big Plan in place, anything that the Beast says is dead wrong, even before it says it. With AVRT, we simply recognize, attribute, and separate.
That's what REBT is: a theory of counseling. It wasn't designed for addiction recovery, although it can be the foundation of a recovery modality. Hence, poking holes in disputation as it relates to silencing the AV is a sophomoric endeavor that results in circular, ineffectual reasoning that neither benefits adherents nor detractors.
This application is most apparent in his first publication, The Small Book, which SMART recovery still uses, and which Rational Recovery no longer recommends as their approach to recovery, except as reading for historical purposes.
Trimpey later saw, as AVRT came to fruition from what he was learning, that RET/REBT was incongruent with the paradigm. This was a large part of the reason for the split between SMART and Rational Recovery. They are simply not using the same methods.
The Big Plan is a chosen irrationality, and through the lens of AVRT, any further disputation of the Addictive Voice beyond the Big Plan is essentially a negotiation with the Beast on the terms and conditions under which one will abstain.
I covered much of this in a previous thread:
I had surgery recently and couldn't have food, water, or smoke. Those are my 3 survival mechanisms. I can live without anything else. I think smoking really does play a part in my mental and emotional survival and it doesn't get replaced when I quit. My brain does not have the ability to feel any pleasure due to years of complex PTSD. I think smoking is the little bit of pleasure in my life that I can actually feel.
So it is a basic survival instinct that is as strong as hunger and thirst.
So it is a basic survival instinct that is as strong as hunger and thirst.
The Beast is a revisionist, and it will change the motivation for smoking, in order to conceal the real reason. In this case, it is 'borrowing' from your personality and history, and equating its own needs for survival with your own.
The Beast's survival depends on control of the "I" in your mind's eye, and this is largely achieved through its use of language. It is important to recognize such thoughts as those of the Beast -- as AV -- and not your own.
This is obviously a definition of health I'm not familiar with . I would categorise an artificially created survival drive that will kill me as a chronic disease.
Having the purpose to never drink again does not remove the option of being able to do so. How can a plan do this?
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Deciding to abstain from alcohol consumption will safe guard an individual from any alcohol related damage.
It would be harmful to my well-being because it means passively accepting the presence of thoughts, feelings, wishes, desires and urges to drink which I have to recognise and separate from for the rest of my life. I would prefer to resolve my thoughts and feelings about drinking to something I am happy with.
It would make more sense to me to have a big plan that says,
My Beast will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
It helps separate it that makes more sense to me. Is that wrong?
My Beast will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
It helps separate it that makes more sense to me. Is that wrong?
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)