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Old 07-18-2013, 10:56 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
What I meant was...it depends on who is doing the discussing as in I or IT.
I knew what you meant. I was demonstrating that either you or your beast was waist deep in the discussion. Along with me or mine and others.

Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
well, if we are looking at it from an AVRT standpoint, the definition of Addictive Voice (AV) is any thought or feeling that suggests drinking, now or in the future. So I'm not sure how failing at managing your portfolio or busting your boo-tay on rollerblades could be defined as AV.
People in this forum are using AVRT for sugar, emotional binge eating and caffeine. I hold both my portfolio and my boo-tay in much higher regard than those things.

This is where the logic of RR starts slipping away for me. There's a certain leap of faith requirement I haven't made.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:17 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
 
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Sugar, nicotine, binge eating, and caffeine...compulsively fixating on your own boo-tay...whatever it may be. AVRT is simply a strategy for stopping a behavior that is causing you problems. If you've read the book, the author defines "addiction" as that point when we decide to stop something, then find we cannot easily stop.

If I smoke, and have no desire to quit. I am not torn about it. I'm not torn because I'm not trying to quit. No beast activity...right? why would there be? I'm happily smoking. It's when I'm not happily smoking, and not happily quitting either, that's the definition of addiction. I'm not addicted until I try to stop...make sense?

Sugar, binge eating, boo-tay self worship...those aren't addictions until the individual experiences discomfort. I'm only going to end any addiction when it becomes too uncomfortable in some way to continue it. I can stay uncomfortable for a long time too, if I choose to. Or I can choose to end the discomfort.

That's when the technique can be helpful.

In the portfolio example or rollerblading example, I'm not clear on what behavior you are trying to stop.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:21 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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I am indeed looking at past results to make a future decision. Seems rational to me that if I did fail once using what I believed to be a "real BP" then why make another "real BP". What's the use?

I think I am missing the point of the BP all together or something. My belief was that in making a BP I could just say "ok no decision about drinking will ever need to be made again". Decision made "I will never drink again". I am ok with all of this part.

"I will not change my mind"... well I didn't think I would "change my mind" the first time around and I did so stands to reason I may change my mind again. Maybe this is beast or maybe it is just true.

Fake BP's are a ludicrous idea to me. I believe that the vast majority of BP's are real to the person who made them AT THE TIME. If that changes for that person and they decide "I am going to drink" and then they quit again, well, they are told to make a "real BP".... that is where I am confused.

Once I violated my BP and looked at why... I realized I had a real BP (at the time), changed my mind, and hence am not going to say again that I wont change my mind.

I hope that made some kind of sense.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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However, it is fair to say you may want to quit something FOREVER and really mean that but, upon second thought decide you were being extreme and you don't want to quit it FOREVER. So it was always a REAL BP because you meant it at the time? So, telling someone to make a real BP or that they didn't have a BP doesn't make sense?
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
 
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"I will not change my mind"... well I didn't think I would "change my mind" the first time around and I did so stands to reason I may change my mind again.
Have you ever done something and then said, "Well, I won't make that mistake again"? But then you did it again?

By the same token have you ever done something and then said, "Well, I won't make that mistake again" and you never repeated that mistake again?

In both cases, I had past failure. In both cases the outcome was different.

Past failure can certainly lead one to tweak something into something more effective. It is by no means a certain prediction of repeated failure.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
I am indeed looking at past results to make a future decision. Seems rational to me that if I did fail once using what I believed to be a "real BP" then why make another "real BP". What's the use?
Boom! I hear you, Jess, you glorious badass, you!

I made a BP to gain separation. Then I drank again, so apparently I didn't have enough separation. So I was told to make another BP to gain separation.

We spend a lot of time talking about "Beasts", but very little time talking about "Beauties". All us addicts have both. Our Beasts all seem very similar, but the Beauties keeping them in check look to be having significant differences. All I'm saying is one size might not fit all.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:38 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
 
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"I was told" " , "they told me", "only to be told"...

There's a book that outlines the strategy. You don't have to accept anyone else's understanding of the material. If what you are doing works well for you then that's awesome.

People are just throwing out (based on the premise of AVRT) what might have been a glitch in the plan.

The glitch for me in the past was not separating from the desire. Wanting to do something was instantaneous, doing it was instantaneous. When I wanted to stop, I figured the only way to do that was to get some distance from the desire. To give me a minute to think. I learned to do that not though AVRT, but through studying Buddhist philosophy.

AVRT seems similar in strategy, but it is refined and focused solely on addiction.

I'm not suggesting that "one size fits all". I'm stating (not suggesting) that anyone is capable of quitting. That past failure does not indicate doom. That doubt hinders progress.
Im suggesting that the beast is behind any thoughts to the contrary.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:12 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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I will never drink again, but, later on, if I change my mind and drink again, that doesn't mean I'm not being honest right now when I tell you I know I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.

The above statement makes no sense to me, but that's the sort of wishy-washiness that it seems people are trying to convince us we ought to accept as their maximum commitment.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Hay GT, I think what you just did is an example of what the OP was talking about. If they do not succeed you label their resolve as ‘wishy-washy’. Their lack of success is blamed on them, and ‘rational’ recovery can remain pure, pristine and infallible. Here is the reasoning.

Person A: "Nobody can have a true big plan and drink."
Person B: "I had a true big plan and I drank."
Person A: "Then you did not have a true big plan, it must have been a wishy-washy plan."

It’s reasoning that would make a ‘true Scotsman’ proud (see my earlier post).

Beyond the fact that the reasoning is fallacious, it is also disrespectful. It places the fault with the individuals resolve ( by labeling it as wishy-washy), regardless of them telling you the contrary. People are saying this is not helpful.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:17 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Beyond the fact that the reasoning is fallacious, it is also disrespectful. It places the fault with the individuals resolve ( by labeling it as wishy-washy), regardless of them telling you the contrary. People are saying this is not helpful.
True, but to be fair, this is a thread about RR/AVRT/BPs. As an ardent disciple of these things, GT is just telling it as he sees it.

I have found this immensely helpful in determining that RR is not the solution to MY problem. A great stepping stone, but not the final destination. I envy those for whom it is, but onward I go. Today's realization has left me more optimistic than I have been in weeks. Great stuff.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:31 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nonsensical
I have found this immensely helpful in determining that RR is not the solution to MY problem. A great stepping stone, but not the final destination. I envy those for whom it is, but onward I go. Today's realization has left me more optimistic than I have been in weeks. Great stuff.
Solving your problem is what it's all about.

Originally Posted by awuh1
People are saying this is not helpful.
You are the the voice of the people?
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:33 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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So if I made a BP and then broke it and then ask questions (or express concerns) about making a subsequent BP.....


Non,
impossible scenario.
there is only one BP.
if you made what you THOUGHT was a BP and you went back to drinking, then clearly it wasn't a BP.



this is where the thing falls down.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:38 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Soberlicious, my apologies.
i didn't realize your reversal of intent was not after making a BP.
i'm guessing, then, that your plan at that time was just the ordinary one, like mine used to be


don't hit me.

clearly i should have attempted to find your previous post.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:48 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Plans are plans and we hope they work out however, only time can really tell is my point.


jkb,
well, no, i do more than hope.
i put effort into it.
but yes, my intention is not to ever drink again. that is: never.

but for me to say i cannot fail, or for anyone to tell me that if i had a BP instead of an intention then i cannot fail seem ludicrous to me and unsupported by all who who've made a BP and then drank again.

That's why it has implications. Yes, people do recover all the time without AVRT. Rest assured they don't engage that other part of themselves, whatever they choose to call it. Self-recovered often describe it as "putting it behind them" They don't often revisit the thoughts over and over again. When they start to do that, they do something else (dismissing).

Soberlicious,
i'd never say anything other than my past drinking is behind me. and i don't dismiss the voice. i look at it. sometimes i ask it questions. it comes up when something is going on with me. i have no desire to dismiss it, trash it, beat it or kill it. it's more of a coexistence. though it's not apart from me, but a part of me. and no, i do not wrestle with it, either. i just accept it. no sweat.
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:57 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Person A: "Nobody can have a true big plan and drink."
Person B: "I had a true big plan and I drank."
Person A: "Then you did not have a true big plan, it must have been a wishy-washy plan."
.
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear. Whatever plan someone makes is not wishy-washy. What seems wishy-washy is to cling to the belief that "yeah, I had more to drink, but I tell you it was definitely the RR Big Plan that led up to that."

I call that blatant Beast activity.
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
 
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When I say dismiss, I am using it as in "allowed it to leave". I don't kill, trash, argue, or beat it either. I observe it (as in , oh you want a drink? Shocker) then I dismiss it as not me. I have long done that with other thoughts and emotions or desires as well. I don't really ask it anything because in my mind, it's agenda is the same. It's got no new newsflash for me.

don't hit me
Lmao
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I will never drink again, but, later on, if I change my mind and drink again, that doesn't mean I'm not being honest right now when I tell you I know I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.....

that's the sort of wishy-washiness that it seems people are trying to convince us we ought to accept as their maximum commitment.
Who is saying this?
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:37 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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"I will never drink again, but, later on, if I change my mind and drink again, that doesn't mean I'm not being honest right now when I tell you I know I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.....*
Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Who is saying this?
It's the statement of a plan, a plan that doesn't make sense to me, and is definitely not the Big Plan.
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:24 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
... for me to say i cannot fail, or for anyone to tell me that if i had a BP instead of an intention then i cannot fail seem ludicrous to me ...
For me (and I believe for anyone else, too) it is inevitable, yes, inevitable, that I will remain permanently abstinent through the use of AVRT's Big Plan alone. And this would remain true to me even if everyone else in the world thought it was ludicrous.
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
and I believe for anyone else, too
Your belief in anyone else has not been substantiated by facts. One size may not fit all.
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