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Old 07-17-2013, 02:20 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
I would like the security of saying "I will never drink again and will not change my mind" and then poof.... impossible for me to take a drink.
It is possible for anyone to do this. I believe it has been accomplished by millions of people, and it doesn't even require saying it out loud to anyone or even saying it out loud to yourself. It just means doing it.

How much alcohol I do or do not put into my bloodstream is 100% always determined in state of total deliberate conscious awareness. Super simple. Not like the unpredictability of being rear-ended by another car.

Here's what I've written before about the Big Plan that I think is important to my understanding of it.

-----------

To me there is a great irony in the name Big Plan, because I believe that, except for one single quality, the Big Plan is quite tiny in all its other aspects.

It takes a very tiny amount of time to implement - about ten seconds, spoken slowly to self.
It takes a very tiny amount of energy to carry out - zero calories.
It takes a very tiny amount of intelligence to understand - small children learn "never"s quite regularly.
It is about NOT doing an extremely exacting behavior - ingesting an easily identified chemical into the blood.
It can only be done the tiniest number of times, ONCE - because a person cannot lie to him/herself. Yep, that's why.
It has a very tiny degree of respect in our society - because so many people lie TO OTHERS about having made it.
It elicits a very tiny amount of trust when shared with others - because other people cannot truly know if a person made the Big Plan.

Nevertheless, all these qualities of smallness are totally blown away by the one ultimate and vastly large quality of the Big Plan. It lasts forever, beyond even the age of the universe.
Any shorter time is not the Big Plan.

As I reminisce about how the Big Plan has worked for me. Ahhhhhh, what a gem of perfection it is. It has benefited me and freed up soooo much time. I love it. You can, too.

-----------
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:21 PM
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So as I was dealing with "dog death" and thought "screw this I want a beer" my next thought was well its because I don't have a BP.
Actually, you could have easily identified all of that as AV and dismissed it. The only way that the death and drinking "tie in" is that the beast seized it and the AV got goin. The don't naturally tie in otherwise.

Originally Posted by jkb
I don't know every situation that is going to occur for the rest of my life. I don't know that my thinking will never change into "you know what, I want a beer and I have changed my mind about not drinking".
Once I decided there there was never ever a valid reason for me to drink, then all that became moot. It's off the table...it's not up for consideration. It that thought comes, its AV. If *I* wanted a beer, then my pronoun has already been hijacked.

I know there has been a lot of focus on the BP in your threads and of course, in your beasts mind. I've said this before, that for me, maintaining separation is KEY. Continue to identify AV (any thought suggesting drinking ever) separate, and dismiss. The whole real vs fake BP argument is AV.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:27 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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So far as I can tell even the best laid plans can fail. Humans tend to have that effect on things. I am using AVRT to stay sober. I believe I can. That's all I've got.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:07 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
The whole real vs fake BP argument is AV.
What if two non-addicts were discussing it? What would it be then?
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:35 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb
…whenever someone drinks despite a BP the answer always is "then you didn't have a real BP".

yes; that was the jist of the "moving the ?????" thread., and how that's no different from the "if you drank again, it's because you didn't do the program right."

the elephant in the room, for me, is what Soberlicious called her "reversal of intent". (i think you called it that, SL, when talking about a return to drinking years after having made a BP).
this is where it sits: the person says " ...and i will never change my mind." and then...a reversal of intent at some point. which sure does look to me exactly equivalent to " i changed my mind even though i was never going to".
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:49 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
What if two non-addicts were discussing it? What would it be then?
Futile.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:50 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=fini;4075867]Originally Posted by jkb
…whenever someone drinks despite a BP the answer always is "then you didn't have a real BP".

yes; that was the jist of the "moving the ?????" thread., and how that's no different from the "if you drank again, it's because you didn't do the program right."

the elephant in the room, for me, is what Soberlicious called her "reversal of intent". (i think you called it that, SL, when talking about a return to drinking years after having made a BP).
this is where it sits: the person says " ...and i will never change my mind." and then...a reversal of intent at some point. which sure does look to me exactly equivalent to " i changed my mind even though i was never going to".[/QUOTE]

Yep, the "reversal of intent". Plans are plans and we hope they work out however, only time can really tell is my point.

I have truly struggled with a BP thinking that would be the "end of all ambivalence" as to drinking. Now, after the last few months I think that as I live in the now it is important to stay in the now and avoid thinking in terms of things I will "never" do.

After all I was happy with my "I never drink now" plan. It worked. Maybe it gives my beast hope? I don't really know. For now it is all I care to grasp.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:51 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
 
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What if two non-addicts were discussing it? What would it be then?
and if a tree falls in the woods....

Two non addicted individuals discussing the validity of a big plan has no implications for them, regardless of any conclusion they draw. It does have implications for the addicted individual. Dire ones at that.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:55 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=doggonecarl;4075889]Futile.

lol
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:59 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
and if a tree falls in the woods....

Two non addicted individuals discussing the validity of a big plan has no implications for them, regardless of any conclusion they draw. It does have implications for the addicted individual. Dire ones at that.
Which are???? As stated prior people self-recover regardless of BP's so.... isn't it rather unimportant?
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:00 AM
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the elephant in the room, for me, is what Soberlicious called her "reversal of intent". (i think you called it that, SL, when talking about a return to drinking years after having made a BP).
this is where it sits: the person says " ...and i will never change my mind." and then...a reversal of intent at some point. which sure does look to me exactly equivalent to " i changed my mind even though i was never going to".
When I quit drinking in my early 20s, I had never heard of AVRT or a big plan. I happily maintained my abstinence for 10 years, and then had a reversal. As I explained at length in the other thread, I believe I drank again because I did not have an understanding of how to separate from that other part of me. The second time I quit, I still had not heard of AVRT or a big plan, but I did the same thing, except that this time I instinctively went through worse case scenarios with myself. I did not hear of AVRT until I had quit for a couple of years. Knowing what I know now, there will be no reversal of intent. That's why I said in the other thread that because I lacked the skill of identifying and separating, that's why I failed after 10 years. I can't unknow what I know now.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:05 AM
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Which are???? As stated prior people self-recover regardless of BP's so.... isn't it rather unimportant?
jess, what I mean is...the round and round about anything, not just the BP, is engaging the Beast. That's why it has implications. Yes, people do recover all the time without AVRT. Rest assured they don't engage that other part of themselves, whatever they choose to call it. Self-recovered often describe it as "putting it behind them" They don't often revisit the thoughts over and over again. When they start to do that, they do something else (dismissing).
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:38 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
When I quit drinking in my early 20s, I had never heard of AVRT or a big plan. I happily maintained my abstinence for 10 years, and then had a reversal. As I explained at length in the other thread, I believe I drank again because I did not have an understanding of how to separate from that other part of me. The second time I quit, I still had not heard of AVRT or a big plan, but I did the same thing, except that this time I instinctively went through worse case scenarios with myself. I did not hear of AVRT until I had quit for a couple of years. Knowing what I know now, there will be no reversal of intent. That's why I said in the other thread that because I lacked the skill of identifying and separating, that's why I failed after 10 years. I can't unknow what I know now.
I believe this to be the key. Identifying and SEPERATING. I find identifying to be much easier than separating. Really must pull my book out tonight. My beast is on a war path right now. ((soberlicious))
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:49 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Two non addicted individuals discussing the validity of a big plan has no implications for them, regardless of any conclusion they draw. It does have implications for the addicted individual. Dire ones at that.
Implications aside, if non-addicts can have a discussion about questions, issues, concerns pertaining to a BP, why can't an addict?

Being told, "The whole real vs fake BP argument is AV." comes across just like being told "you're in denial".
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:55 AM
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I believe this to be the key. Identifying and SEPERATING. I find identifying to be much easier than separating. Really must pull my book out tonight. My beast is on a war path right now. ((soberlicious))
Yes, separating can be difficult at first. But for me, I just stuck with, if it suggests drinking, it's AV. I did not go beyond that because why would I? I remember Nons thread along the lines of "what if this thought really isn't AV?" We could go round and round about analyzing a single thought for AVness...yes it is, no it isn't...well who really gives a rats azz? If I make a mistake and I dismissed a non AV thought as AV...what have I lost? I dismissed a thought...so what?

The idea here...that I must know the difference...the urgency that I must figure this out...big plan real? Not real? Omg I will fail if I don't know that answers!!! that's pure AV. It doesn't matter whether I know the answers or not.
I.
Do.
Not.
Drink.

My son once asked what if our house was on fire, but the fire dept was on fire too. When I answered that the other departments would mutual aid and come to us, he said "but what if they are ALL on fire at the same time?!" Lol yeah, ok dude, lets back it up...pump the brakes. I have two choices...I can worry each day about possibilities that are really impossibilities for all intents and purposes...or I can tell fear to go blow and I can go forth and confidently live my life happily knowing 100% that all the fire depts will never be on fire at the same exact time, and also when my house is on fire as well.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:57 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
 
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Being told, "The whole real vs fake BP argument is AV." comes across just like being told "you're in denial".
They can have that discussion if they want to.. My point is engaging the beast, rather than dismissing is risky. If I wrestle, I have a chance of losing. If I never even get in the ring with the beast, she cannot win.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
My point is engaging the beast...
You lost me.

So if I made a BP and then broke it and then ask questions (or express concerns) about making a subsequent BP I am engaging the beast?

Is the solution then to make the subsequent BP without discussion or contemplation?
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:25 AM
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You lost me.

So if I made a BP and then broke it and then ask questions (or express concerns) about making a subsequent BP I am engaging the beast?

Is the solution then to make the subsequent BP without discussion or contemplation?
The AV is telling Jess that because she failed, she will fail again. That because she had a reversal then she obviously doesn't understand all of this and will ultimately always fail. None of that is true. Period. So that does not need to be discussed or contemplated because its a lie.

If one doesn't maintain separation, then who is actually doing the discussing and contemplating?
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:02 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
If one doesn't maintain separation, then who is actually doing the discussing and contemplating?
Jess is attempting to do it here, with us. You, I and others are facilitating the discussion.

I guess non-addicts could do it by themselves if they were so inclined. Lucky them.

I attempted to manage my own portfolio once, and I failed. I am concerned that if I try again I might fail again.

I tried to rollerblade once and fell on my ass. I am concerned that if I try to rollerblade again I might fall on my ass again.

Are those examples of AV, or just taking prior experiences into account when making future decisions?
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:28 AM
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Jess is attempting to do it here, with us. You, I and others are facilitating the discussion.
What I meant was...it depends on who is doing the discussing as in I or IT.

Are those examples of AV, or just taking prior experiences into account when making future decisions?
well, if we are looking at it from an AVRT standpoint, the definition of Addictive Voice (AV) is any thought or feeling that suggests drinking, now or in the future. So I'm not sure how failing at managing your portfolio or busting your boo-tay on rollerblades could be defined as AV.
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