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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Yes, congratulations GFCo. I'm glad you took the plunge. The water feels great, doesn't it!
You mentioned on page two that you were thinking that perhaps you aren't an addict. I was particularly impressed with the RR book's discussion on free will vs. chemical dependence vs. addiction.
Have you had a chance to read that section yet?
You mentioned on page two that you were thinking that perhaps you aren't an addict. I was particularly impressed with the RR book's discussion on free will vs. chemical dependence vs. addiction.
Have you had a chance to read that section yet?
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,071
Originally Posted by unentschieden 
Have you had a chance to read that section yet?
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Graduation
GFCO, It sounds like you've learned enough AVRT to recognize that you don't have to limit yourself to a conditional, powerless-over-alcohol type of sobriety, and that you have every capacity to plan your own permanent abstinence using your concept of good and evil with the devil acting for what RR calls the Beast. Congratulations on that.
In addition, it also seems like you are enjoying using the 12 step spiritual way of life concepts for personal growth purposes unconnected to the issue of to-drink-or-not-to-drink.
And, finally, it appears you are enjoying giving feedback to others about their recoveries, and how you're changing your life.
Speaking more generally, now, since AVRT has been taught here the last 8 months, I think what GFCO has done about her addiction, and is doing in the SR community about her personal growth is not unusual, and will become even more commonplace as time passes and AVRT settles in alongside the other programs and methods used here.
I haven't been here long enough to see how people "graduate" from SR and get on with other things, but I'm interested because I think separation for positive reasons is something that isn't addressed very often, anywhere. Of course, in the 12 step approach, one is never expected to separate, so positive separation is not an issue there. But even without AVRT's presence, most people do drift away from "the ongoing process of recovery" for different reasons. So, in a way, it is an issue for everyone.
AVRT demands a separation from "needing" any recovery community, eventually even an AVRT teaching community, because AVRT isn't difficult to learn by itself. Needing a recovery community is the AV. This is what I mean by a positive separation from institutionalized recovery.
So, why am I here? I recovered decades ago. Well, I really like AVRT, and after watching the AVRT threads for a few weeks, I wanted to join in, decided I had the time, and did so early January.
I'm also aware that RR encourages this sort of involvement. Here's from their World Services webpage -
Notice how I mentioned "AVRT isn't difficult to learn BY ITSELF" a few sentences ago? In the SR community, it is being taught alongside other programs. This, I think, gives learning AVRT an advantage and a disadvantage.
The advantage is that one doesn't have to go far at all to run into AV activity of every variety imaginable. The disadvantage is that it takes a lot of work to keep the TECHNIQUE of AVR correctly described and taught, and I must say TU has an amazing skill and endurance to pull it off so well.
So, what about this positive separation? People are supposed to leave, to "graduate" from learning the AVRT "way" out of addiction, as opposed to learning "The Way" of life of "recovery". This leaving happens very naturally. But, now, on the other hand, people who have learned AVRT are being encouraged to stick around and help spread the message of its existence and its method.
This finally leads me to a suggestion. That there be a thread called something like The AVRT Recovery EXIT - where people who've done it, can post their farewells in a positive, celebratory, getting-on-with-real-life fashion. Some people will naturally leave SR. For those of us who want to stick around and teach, we could still post to the AVRT Recovery EXIT thread a farewell to our addiction and struggle, and confirmation of our Big Plan, and that we are "graduating" to the PhD level (Phormer Drunk), and continue posting as an AVRT (and/or other program) advocate.
Who knows, it could even become popular to the point of attracting more people like myself onto SR to post their having exited recovery in the past and their helping teach some AVRT on SR for a while.
To conclude, I think an AVRT Recovery EXIT thread would also give folks like GFCO an opportunity to mark the time clearly between the end of her struggle with future drinking and the beginning of her choice of what ideas to use to enhance her life as a permanently abstinent person, even if they are 12 step ideas. The way I look at it, GFCO already has ended her addiction and has decided to continue posting for reasons other than helping her to not drink, and she is far from being alone in that situation.
In addition, it also seems like you are enjoying using the 12 step spiritual way of life concepts for personal growth purposes unconnected to the issue of to-drink-or-not-to-drink.
And, finally, it appears you are enjoying giving feedback to others about their recoveries, and how you're changing your life.
Speaking more generally, now, since AVRT has been taught here the last 8 months, I think what GFCO has done about her addiction, and is doing in the SR community about her personal growth is not unusual, and will become even more commonplace as time passes and AVRT settles in alongside the other programs and methods used here.
I haven't been here long enough to see how people "graduate" from SR and get on with other things, but I'm interested because I think separation for positive reasons is something that isn't addressed very often, anywhere. Of course, in the 12 step approach, one is never expected to separate, so positive separation is not an issue there. But even without AVRT's presence, most people do drift away from "the ongoing process of recovery" for different reasons. So, in a way, it is an issue for everyone.
AVRT demands a separation from "needing" any recovery community, eventually even an AVRT teaching community, because AVRT isn't difficult to learn by itself. Needing a recovery community is the AV. This is what I mean by a positive separation from institutionalized recovery.
So, why am I here? I recovered decades ago. Well, I really like AVRT, and after watching the AVRT threads for a few weeks, I wanted to join in, decided I had the time, and did so early January.
I'm also aware that RR encourages this sort of involvement. Here's from their World Services webpage -
"...we are now inviting individuals interested in bringing AVRT-based recovery to their own communities to become Advocates for independent recovery,... "
The advantage is that one doesn't have to go far at all to run into AV activity of every variety imaginable. The disadvantage is that it takes a lot of work to keep the TECHNIQUE of AVR correctly described and taught, and I must say TU has an amazing skill and endurance to pull it off so well.
So, what about this positive separation? People are supposed to leave, to "graduate" from learning the AVRT "way" out of addiction, as opposed to learning "The Way" of life of "recovery". This leaving happens very naturally. But, now, on the other hand, people who have learned AVRT are being encouraged to stick around and help spread the message of its existence and its method.
This finally leads me to a suggestion. That there be a thread called something like The AVRT Recovery EXIT - where people who've done it, can post their farewells in a positive, celebratory, getting-on-with-real-life fashion. Some people will naturally leave SR. For those of us who want to stick around and teach, we could still post to the AVRT Recovery EXIT thread a farewell to our addiction and struggle, and confirmation of our Big Plan, and that we are "graduating" to the PhD level (Phormer Drunk), and continue posting as an AVRT (and/or other program) advocate.
Who knows, it could even become popular to the point of attracting more people like myself onto SR to post their having exited recovery in the past and their helping teach some AVRT on SR for a while.
To conclude, I think an AVRT Recovery EXIT thread would also give folks like GFCO an opportunity to mark the time clearly between the end of her struggle with future drinking and the beginning of her choice of what ideas to use to enhance her life as a permanently abstinent person, even if they are 12 step ideas. The way I look at it, GFCO already has ended her addiction and has decided to continue posting for reasons other than helping her to not drink, and she is far from being alone in that situation.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Wow, this has been an awesome thread. I have used something similar to AVRT on my own twice in the past. Once to quit dipping snuff and the second after being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes to remove refined sugar from my diet. Both of those were based on me accepting that I never wanted to use those substances again and making the decision to commit to that. Being a secular Buddhist I used mindfulness as a way to monitor my thoughts, recognize the monkey mind (the beast) whining for snuff or sugar and to ignore it. Both took lots of conscious effort in the beginning but now I hardly ever give a thought to either.
What brought me to these forums is that I am separated from wife and in the process of divorcing her. The last 15 years have been an insanity of detoxes, rehabs, meetings and relapses as she continued her downward spiral and me willing following her try to save her or at least protect her. When I reached the point that I began to think that death was going to be my only escape I finally woke up from the nightmare. SR and Al-Anon have both been huge helps. I needed help in the beginning to relearn simple things like it is ok to have boundaries and to take care of yourself and that I had choices. While I am no longer participating actively in Al-Anon they were a necessary first step for me. In addition many people who attend al-anon end up quitting the program after their relationship has fallen apart. The need to attend forever just doesn’t sell as well there as it does in AA. In spite of the fact that there are a number of “old timers” who think otherwise and try to impose their views on the meetings.
I have to be honest and say that I got some very useful tools from that program that dovetailed nicely with my Buddhism on living in the moment, giving up the illusion of control and accepting both myself and reality for what they are. I am now at a point where I am content just being me and I no longer look for another person to complete me. In some ways the Al-Anon tools were easier to access and put to use than the Buddhist tools as they were more folksy and down to earth and not written in a style that was of often cryptic and outdated.
So I guess I am saying there are some good parts to the 12 step programs but not for quitting an addictive drug . I am using the program now not because I am an alcoholic but because I don’t like the direction my drinking is heading. I have found since leaving my wife I have started drinking more than I would like and more often than I would like. No binge drinking or blackout drinking but still enough to make me uncomfortable. And having regained my sanity and serenity from the horror that was my marriage I have no desire to lose it again to my drinking. So I went to the AVRT web site, read the bullets and made my big plan. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. By doing so I never have to be uncomfortable with my drinking again or worry about how much is too much. It’s now so very easy because I don’t drink and never will again.
I must say thank you to TU because until I came here and he posted in the friends and family section that I had never ever heard of AVRT. I will continue to post here and share my experiences because I want other people to know that this is a tool that works.
Your friend,
What brought me to these forums is that I am separated from wife and in the process of divorcing her. The last 15 years have been an insanity of detoxes, rehabs, meetings and relapses as she continued her downward spiral and me willing following her try to save her or at least protect her. When I reached the point that I began to think that death was going to be my only escape I finally woke up from the nightmare. SR and Al-Anon have both been huge helps. I needed help in the beginning to relearn simple things like it is ok to have boundaries and to take care of yourself and that I had choices. While I am no longer participating actively in Al-Anon they were a necessary first step for me. In addition many people who attend al-anon end up quitting the program after their relationship has fallen apart. The need to attend forever just doesn’t sell as well there as it does in AA. In spite of the fact that there are a number of “old timers” who think otherwise and try to impose their views on the meetings.
I have to be honest and say that I got some very useful tools from that program that dovetailed nicely with my Buddhism on living in the moment, giving up the illusion of control and accepting both myself and reality for what they are. I am now at a point where I am content just being me and I no longer look for another person to complete me. In some ways the Al-Anon tools were easier to access and put to use than the Buddhist tools as they were more folksy and down to earth and not written in a style that was of often cryptic and outdated.
So I guess I am saying there are some good parts to the 12 step programs but not for quitting an addictive drug . I am using the program now not because I am an alcoholic but because I don’t like the direction my drinking is heading. I have found since leaving my wife I have started drinking more than I would like and more often than I would like. No binge drinking or blackout drinking but still enough to make me uncomfortable. And having regained my sanity and serenity from the horror that was my marriage I have no desire to lose it again to my drinking. So I went to the AVRT web site, read the bullets and made my big plan. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. By doing so I never have to be uncomfortable with my drinking again or worry about how much is too much. It’s now so very easy because I don’t drink and never will again.
I must say thank you to TU because until I came here and he posted in the friends and family section that I had never ever heard of AVRT. I will continue to post here and share my experiences because I want other people to know that this is a tool that works.
Your friend,
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
GFCO, It sounds like you've learned enough AVRT to recognize that you don't have to limit yourself to a conditional, powerless-over-alcohol type of sobriety, and that you have every capacity to plan your own permanent abstinence using your concept of good and evil with the devil acting for what RR calls the Beast. Congratulations on that.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,071
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
GFCO, sorry about saying the devil was your method of naming the Beast. I mistook you for PurpleCatLover in that regard. Hope that clears up any confusion.
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Truckee, CA
Posts: 30
What a happy thread
Even though "it" is doing this
I think beast is too cute of a name for it. An ex called my daughter Angelbeast --yes too cute, too cute.
Oh geez, now I'm thinking how cute Cousin It can be. Well I'll just have to drop the cousin part for now, until I can wrap my head around all this. Satan seems a bit too, too. Maybe I should call it Z-IT and imagine it like a little annoying puss ball of inflamed bacteria--yeah that's zit! Little z, little i, little t. Zapping zit will be my vertigo sword.
S who is going to be the first AVRT old-timer?
What is that 5 yrs. or 20 yrs? Am I still indoctrinated?
Just starting till to slough off some of the AA group think that I voluntarily tried on--some of it good stuck--some of it not so good. About 50% of it I could relate to , and another 50% I thought was kind of dangerous--for me.
Hard for me to let go of "one day at a time" thing for now, as tomorrow is day 2 and I'm just learning AVRT. Although I tend to call it ONE BREATH AT A TIME, and most breaths have not been a struggle so far. But zit is now reminding me how he stole a few of my breaths. This is now me
Even though "it" is doing this
I think beast is too cute of a name for it. An ex called my daughter Angelbeast --yes too cute, too cute.
Oh geez, now I'm thinking how cute Cousin It can be. Well I'll just have to drop the cousin part for now, until I can wrap my head around all this. Satan seems a bit too, too. Maybe I should call it Z-IT and imagine it like a little annoying puss ball of inflamed bacteria--yeah that's zit! Little z, little i, little t. Zapping zit will be my vertigo sword.
S who is going to be the first AVRT old-timer?
What is that 5 yrs. or 20 yrs? Am I still indoctrinated?
Just starting till to slough off some of the AA group think that I voluntarily tried on--some of it good stuck--some of it not so good. About 50% of it I could relate to , and another 50% I thought was kind of dangerous--for me.
Hard for me to let go of "one day at a time" thing for now, as tomorrow is day 2 and I'm just learning AVRT. Although I tend to call it ONE BREATH AT A TIME, and most breaths have not been a struggle so far. But zit is now reminding me how he stole a few of my breaths. This is now me
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by KaliCali
So who is going to be the first AVRT old-timer?
What is that 5 yrs. or 20 yrs? Am I still indoctrinated?
What is that 5 yrs. or 20 yrs? Am I still indoctrinated?
Originally Posted by KaliCali
Just starting till to slough off some of the AA group think that I voluntarily tried on--some of it good stuck--some of it not so good. About 50% of it I could relate to , and another 50% I thought was kind of dangerous--for me.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Truckee, CA
Posts: 30
Funny. I saw the old-timer question earlier in the AVRT thread. I know you guys were joking, but perhaps the AV did not.
I am learning how sneaky it is-even beyond alcoholism. I think AV is a good name for it -nothing cute--just what it is. In the past 24 hours, I have been practicing at recognizing the AV popping up every few seconds to every few minutes. It does seem a semantics game that I'm not use to , but I'm glad to hear it will build upon itself.
Which book is the best book to start with BTW? Our library only has the small book, which I understand is defunct.
I am learning how sneaky it is-even beyond alcoholism. I think AV is a good name for it -nothing cute--just what it is. In the past 24 hours, I have been practicing at recognizing the AV popping up every few seconds to every few minutes. It does seem a semantics game that I'm not use to , but I'm glad to hear it will build upon itself.
Which book is the best book to start with BTW? Our library only has the small book, which I understand is defunct.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,955
Originally Posted by KaliCali
Which book is the best book to start with BTW?
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Linking threads for ease of continuity
I'm resurrecting this informative thread to add a link to a newer thread that continues, and very well may describe the completion of, GFCO's recovery.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...dly-drunk.htmlhttp://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...dly-drunk.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...dly-drunk.htmlhttp://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...dly-drunk.html
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