FT

In my personal view, again I am not an AVRT representative, I can deliberately allow a TINY amount of alcohol to be ingested IF there were a purpose behind doing so. It is just an odd question, because there are usually alternatives to alcohol in any given situation.

I can think of some examples: medicinal tinctures with the medication dissolved in a tiny amount of alcohol (although uncommon to find these any more); I had a special alcohol-based mouthwash prescribed for swishing and not swallowing after oral surgery, and I accidentally swallowed some of it -yuk; I make a stew that has cooking sherry in which the alcohol cooks out, but I'm not going to try to measure it to find out if any traces of alcohol remain in it. Stuff like that.

Other than purposeful alcohol consumption in trace amounts for a valid or prescribed purpose, I can't think of any reason to ingest alcohol.

So, maybe the question should be, if I were forced to drink some alcohol in any amount, would that change my standing as a non-drinker? NO, in my opinion. I would still be a non-drinker. Being a non-drinker is more a self-identification than it is a physical condition. I would also take pain medications for surgery if I had to. I would still be a non-opiate-user from start to finish -- unless and until my intentions changed, which would require a total change of self-identity.

These are just my own impressions. I don't have any idea if there is an "official" response.

Let's see, if somebody were dangling my mother off a cliff and threatened to drop her off to her certain death if I didn't drink some alcohol right then and there, would I drink it? And would I then no longer be a non-drinker? Hmmmmmm..... Well, maybe if it were my mother-in-law, my answer would be different. Ha!

Terminally Unique

I don't see why someone who has decided never to drink would even do that in the first place. If you don't drink alcohol, you don't join in wedding toasts with alcohol.

The Big Plan of AVRT is kind of like the Kashrut laws in Judaism, in that it places alcohol and other drugs off limits, forbidden. An observant Jew who keeps Kosher might accidentally eat something that isn't Kosher if they didn't know it was Treif (non-Kosher), but it should not be a normal occurrence, nor would it be causally dismissed. Neither would it be interpreted as "now I've done it, time to start eating shrimp."

If someone were to accidentally ingest an alcoholic beverage, in violation of their Big Plan, which is essentially a sacred covenant, they should not casually dismiss it, or use it as an excuse to go back to drinking. Ideally, they would reflect on what led to that sort of oversight, and figure out how to prevent it from ever happening again.

Whether they disclose it to others or not is up to them. Since the Big Plan is a self-imposed covenant with oneself, or possibly with one's G-d, there is no requirement in AVRT for self-disclosure to others per se. If confessing to others is done in order to be "held accountable," as an external deterrent, it would actually be Addictive Voice, predicting future "slips" if one does not confess. This, of course, necessarily implies that the Big Plan is meaningless, a farce, not really a true covenant, dependent instead on whether one's drinking is known to others.

It should not happen occasionally.

Terminally Unique

No, you would not be correct in assuming that. The torque that drives AVRT is ultimately moral judgement, and ingesting alcohol willingly is not morally equivalent to doing so accidentally.

FT

To me, all this is just more "Beast noise".

Hearing myself muse about being "forced" to drink, even in jest, is pure Beast noise. The adolescent musings of scenarios in which one might do something against their will in absurd situations have likely been around ever since humans could speak.

Let's get real. People come to AVRT to learn how NOT to drink. We don't need to spend useless time musing about the nonsensical what-if's that the AV wants to entertain us with.

FT

langkah

I've known alcoholics who consider themselves abstinent but still toast with a slurp of wine occasionally, enjoy desserts with a finishing splash of hi-test over the top, and when they are cooking will sample the wine they are about to dump in the pot in order to...to make sure it's really wine, I suppose.

All those are willing and concious intakes of booze, but there still exists for these people a line which they will not cross. For them anything over a half glass would be wrong and a clear violation of their non-drinking identity.

Others I've known have passed the half-a-drink mark but stopped short and did not continue on to getting drunk at that time, and so interpret their experience as not drinking, or as not REALLY drinking as they would describe drinking.

It's almost two schools of thought...one school holds the line at zero deliberate alcohol ingestion, another is ok with drinking small amounts if there's a reasonable reason to go ahead and do that, but not to overdo it and to not do that too often.

The second school views the problem to be avoided is the extreme drunkedness of the past. As long as that doesn't take place the alcoholic has remained sober enough for practical purposes and anything further than practical is approaching fanatical.

The first sees complete abstinence as the goal, which by definition obviously also precludes the old drunken episodes from taking place.

What would be a clear violation of abstinence to people in the first group is commonly shrugged off by the second.

I see from the two differing viewpoints that people can associate with AVRT while still choosing to interpret the material loosely instead of literally, each finding what works for the individual, taking what they want and leaving the rest.

Good to know there is a wide degree a flexibility in interpreting and applying the basic concept of abstinence among AVRT'rs.

freethinking

You cannot be abstinent if you are drinking even a sip. This isn't an opinion, this just follows with the definition of what abstaining means; which is to refrain from. I've never once met an "alcoholic" (and I have met maybe thousands) who has ever claimed to be abstinent or sober but then also proclaim to have sips here and there...your sampling of the cooking wine example made me giggle, BTW! WTF? Who does that? "to make sure it is really, wine, I suppose". Sorry, that is sadly hysterical!!

I find it very hard to believe a real person believes they have a non-drinking identity if they allow themselves occasions to take sips for whatever reason. That's like me occasionally taking a hit off a joint and then saying I don't smoke pot. A non-drinking identiity, to me, is very different than the identity of someone who takes even the occasional sip when the occasion could call for it....because these people at least look "normal" to others. As a non-drinker, I literally don't drink no matter what and am thus defined as such. If I occasionally had a half glass at special occasions, there would be no point or need for me to proclaim myself as a non-drinker. I guess what I don't understand with your whole post here is why these "people" you claim you have met are trying so hard to say they are abstinent when by definition, they are not?

What is going on in someone's head when they have half a drink, as you claim, but then chalk the experience up as a non-drinking one? If someone is trying that hard to claim they didn't really drink when they clearly did (even if it is a small amount) something is wrong. Nobody who is truly comfortable with their "half a glass" behavior is going to find the need to ever classify that as non-drinking. The person drank, end of story. If they try and sell it as anything less, then they are not as comfortable with their behavior as they'd like others to think.

I'm all for taking what you want and leaving the rest when it comes to sobriety....but um, no....not when someone is trying to say they are sober when they clearly drink.

I don't know that it is that wide, and it certainly isn't wide enough for people to say they are non-drinkers when they drink!!

soberlicious

LOL so true
also sounds a little like:
"but I didn't inhale"
and the ever infamous, "I did not have sex with that woman"

freethinking

Actually, that exact scenario was going through my mind when reading that post.

I'm sorry, Langkah...I shouldn't really be making light of your post but I guess a part of me found it funny because all of that sounds like something I could come up with back in the day when trying desperately to find ways to stop drinking that didn't really involve stopping drinking. The ideas and justifications I came up with were just as outlandish.

I guess maybe I am thinking you have never really met any "alcoholics" who claim to be sober but yet also have these very specific rules in place for when they can drink...and that these plans work for them. I have a feeling that rather you are trying these above theories 'on for size' to see how they sound? Yeah, I guess I believe it is possible for some people to drink again normally after drinking alcoholically....but I do not believe there are that many people out there who would successfully do this and then be full of it enough to claim they don't drink.

Terminally Unique

You are correct in that all of this is just more Beast noise, FT, but you have inadvertently reminded me of a useful AVRT trick.

The Beast is totally dependent on the self — "I" — to get its precious stuff, and to be sure, it can be quite crafty in coming up with reasons to drink, but it is nevertheless too stupid to keep its game plan secret for long. To see what I mean, ask the Beast, "Suppose I do end up drinking/using, what conditions will lead to that?"

It will probably stupidly tell you just how it plans to seduce you, well in advance. You might hear the AV say "Well, when the wife goes out of town next week, you'll be all alone, and she keeps that bottle for special guests. You could replace it before she got back. She'd never know." Kind of like playing poker with someone and right before you place your bet, saying "I'm not sure if this hand is good, sir, would you show me your cards, please?"

Too easy.

Terminally Unique

AVRT is not a moderation or controlled drinking program; it is fanatical in its insistence on abstinence. The Big Plan of AVRT is absolutist and calls for abstinence — here, now, and forever.

There is no wide degree of flexibility, and AVRT will interpret any such presumed flexibility, since it suggests the possibility of future drinking or using, as the Addictive Voice itself. The only "flexibility" would be in the legitimate use of drugs for purposes other than self-intoxication, such as the use of anesthetics during surgery.

kanamit

I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.*

* Subject to status. Written details available on request. Plan does not include checking the authenticity of wine for cooking or wedding toasts. Half drinks do not constitute full drinks—or any drinks for that matter. Your car and home may be at risk if your Big Plan is too flexible.

Forgive my dry sense of humour.

langkah

FT, I've learned to stay out of discussions about how much sober alcoholics can drink and still kid themselves that they're sober, it only stesses people out, hurts tender feelings and eventually results in threats to run off and get drunk because someone slandered their semi-abstinence.

The extreme examples I used are real people who are kidding themselves and you're right, it's both sad and funny. The way those discussions predictibly end is that the alcoholics insist they are the ones to determine if they are sober or not and for how long and a few sipsies are not going to change that and no one is going to tell them differently, and who made up all these silly rules anyway?

Not worth getting into it with them, ever. Nature takes it's course sooner or later.

Sorry to distract the thread with my question, will butt out now.

Thrifty

I haven't faced the toasting with a drink at a social event yet. I will be able to handle it when it happens. I am sure that I will get alot of pleading from my beast when that happens but I will handle it.

I faced quite a bit of beast activity for the last couple of hours and I did separate from the beast, but there was so much "chatter" that I was finding it hard to distinguish between me and it at some points. I just got back from a doctors appointment and I was very nervous before the appointment and it didnt turn out to be nearly as bad as I thought that it would be. I have high blood pressure, but he's confident that we will be able to control it and it's a long way from giving me complications at the moment.

My beast immediately said, "see, you haven't screwed up your health that much, you can keep drinking". " your follow up visit isn't until three weeks from now, you can relax with a drink tonite and and start worrying about your diet and exercise tomorrow, you're only up to page 188 in the RR book after all, you can wait until you're completely done with it."

That line of "reasoning" went on for over an hour and has subsided since then. I know in the book he talks about the frequency, duration, etc of the beast's pleas. This has been the longest continuous stretch I have experience since I started to practice AVRT a little while ago. Anyone have experience dealing with such a continuous onslaught of the beast?

Terminally Unique

Thrifty,

Do not engage in unnecessary "chatter" with the AV, just recognize it and observe it. You are afraid of your own bodily desire for alcohol, as if it can do anything without your consent. Rest assured that it cannot. Separation is the key. Try the finger wiggle exercise to realize just how powerless the Beast is. Wiggle your fingers, then look at your hand, and say "OK, mighty Beast, if you can wiggle my fingers, I'll go out and get good and loaded."

Your Beast will try and tell you that you are uncomfortable, dying for a drink, but that is not true, it is just Addictive Voice. It is not you that is uncomfortable and dying for a drink, but your Beast, and IT is talking to you, trying to get you to believe that you are IT and that IT is you. If it helps, recall the structural model.



If you are having difficulty separating from the Beast, you can try to focus on it and objectify it completely. For example, you can say to yourself "IT feels deprived. I feel it struggle, but I am not struggling as I feel IT struggle. After everything IT put me through, I am very glad that IT struggles, suffers, and feels deprived. I don't drink, too bad for IT." You could even attribute all desire for a drink to the Beast and add "Since the desire to drink is not me, but the Beast, I don't even want to drink."

Oh, and finish reading the book. That should give you something else to do instead of chatting with the AV.

FT

I tried to PM you with a side note, but evidently you don't take PM's. Ah well.

FT

langkah

Ftaper, that post was in response to Fthinker and not in response to anything you'd earlier said...I didn't catch that there are multiple FTs .

onlythetruth

No, but I imagine a person with a sexual addiction might.....

Terminally Unique

If they did, they would be making the same rookie mistake.

lostbutterfly

Nice to see all the new people, still a fantastic thread. And April's avatar is all grown up into a kick *ss kittie!!

I'm reminded of my own sense of enormous relief upon discovering AVRT. I have read RR twice now, and will probably re-read it in the future. Need to check in more often to get all the great info on here though.

Peta

Update

Hi everyone

I know we are not meant to be counting days but given this is my first week having made my Big Plan I thought I'd just fill you all in

Last Drunk on Sunday (had stumbled onto RR and the forums on Sunday) woke up on Monday feeling desperate, spoke to other women in the fellowship went to a 'meeting' and just felt more hopeless

Spent hours on Monday afternoon reading these threads and did the crash course (have since found TU's post about not making a Big Plan when being hung over,,, by Monday afternoon I wasnt so hung over anymore but in hindsight should probably have waited until Tuesday but HEY! it's been working for me and now I'm a NON drinker it's fairly irrelevant anyway - however interesting that my Beast piped up when I found that and was very quick to point out.. you did it all WRONG - may as well drink again and then wait two days after the drink to do the big plan if you still want to - so manipulative is my beast.

I can honestly say thats it's been so simple - YES I've had to deal with Beast attacks every few hours.. but the main thing I've been struggling with these past 4-5 days is feeling tired and almost flu/cold like symptoms which I presume are normal?

The main thing I feel is RELIEF to have a solution and so happy that I have time on my hands and dont have to throw myself onto a 'good recovery plan' which includes a meeting every day, another inventory blah blah blah

I'm not bashing (well maybe I am a little bit) but just sharing my own experience and relief that one thing didnt work for me and I know this will. I have total respect for people who make the other thing work for them but I feel like i've dodged a bullet I really do in that there is a way which doesnt = lifelong powerlessness and indoctrination.