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Old 02-10-2007, 02:43 AM
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Hi AB


Originally Posted by Abbadun View Post

I like speaker meetings and I like speakers that are not too polished in the lingo. I do not want to hear mere parroting of the the information in the books, but for real interpretations.


I agree AB, There is wisdom that comes from the many varied people in meetings as well as ( the less fun stuff for me ) recital of AA text. I go for the former and another important reason. I’m trying…and man-o-man am I trying, to get over my prejudges against AA. I like the fact that when a group of people support one and another under one cause great things happen. That happens in AA all the time. These past few days I have been looking inward and do not like what I see. I will remain a non-theist, but I will shed the anti-god mentality. If you know what I mean. I don’t want to continue to put down a program that server so many well.

Yea sure the BB and me have some problems. But if I understand this correctly: the meetings are intended to support members that want to add a spiritual dimension to their life as well as support for those who prefer to follow another direction. The only requirement………


Zencat .
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
And if you believe all advertisements are true, you're in for a very frustrating life.
Abb was not saying (as I understand him) that all advertisements are true, but that they *should* be true, and that while AA advertises itself with the words "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking..." it would be closer to the truth to say "The only requirements for membership are a desire to stop drinking and a belief in a Higher Power along the lines laid out by the majority in the fellowship. Otherwise get lost." Your post pretty much shows him to be right.

Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
As I said, it's a free country.
Used like that, that phrase "it's a free country" always translates as "my way or the highway". Ain't much "shalom" in that...
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Old 02-10-2007, 07:23 AM
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Nolonger


Used like that, that phrase "it's a free country" always translates as "my way or the highway". Ain't much "shalom" in that...
That's a sh!tty thing to write. People treat you with respect, you should do the same in return.

Why don't you apologise.
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Old 02-10-2007, 07:48 AM
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I agree with paulmh-personal attacks are uncalled for.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:07 AM
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Hi HT

I did not say that I believe all advertisements are true, but when I find one that is not true I know that the issuer is dishonest.

Yes it is a free country outside of AA and Sober Recovery. I have neither the time or the means at this time to start a new organization and this fact does not release AA for keeping its "promises".

When have I called for AA to change? I do believe if people started talking about AA in a honest way including both the negative and the positive that the program would be of more use to everyone.

Even a active alcoholic (who is in denial about him/herself) at AA's doorstep can recognize the blatant lapses of logic, common decency, respect for others in AA's ancient teachings.

I hope this is not considered bashing, it is merely a answer to a question

AB




Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
Logically different, AB;
Just because an apple is a fruit,
it doesn't make all fruit apples.

I said this:

I stand by my statement.

Find someone who doesn't use a HP and you're all set.
And if you believe all advertisements are true, you're in for a very frustrating life.
I'm not going to spend any more time argueing. As I said, it's a free country. If you don't like what's there, start your own organization. A program that has been around for 70+ years is not going to change for you. That's just called LIFE.
And I still do wish you well.

Shalom!
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:10 AM
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Hi Paul

Here is a Analogy

AA writes about Atheists like they were ****, yet Sober Recovery expects Atheists to love what was written?????

Still I will always try to be dencent in my answer to everyone.

AB

PS sorry about the 4 letter word I see that Paul had put a ! in the middle of his which made it OK.

Originally Posted by paulmh View Post
Nolonger




That's a sh!tty thing to write. People treat you with respect, you should do the same in return.

Why don't you apologise.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by paulmh View Post
Nolonger
That's a sh!tty thing to write. People treat you with respect, you should do the same in return.

Why don't you apologise.
You're right and I am sorry - I overstated that. I think the point I made is OK, but it was definitely too sharply made.
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Old 02-10-2007, 11:49 AM
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Time and again we have these conversations AB!

Your experience in the rooms must be very different from mine. I've never been treated with anything other than the utmost respect by members of the fellowship. The BB was written seventy-odd years ago, by one bloke. It rings with his particular life experience - and also, nicely enough, with his illness. It is deeply flawed, just like me. I love it. I have learned to love it even though there's lots I don't agree with. I have learned to love it primarily because it's a big part of a life-saving change in me. I have learned to love it because it represents that paradigm shift for me - that emotional alteration that happened when I learned to love things not simply because I agree with them or they validate me - there's a poster I've seen in one meeting, just once, made me think of you - I typed it in my pda -

The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves and not twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the refelction of ourselves we see in them
I love the fellowship and the principles that underpin it. I love the drama and magic of accidents and mistakes and grandiose plans overturned that brought the fellowship into being. I love it in spite of itself. And because it saved my life, in spite of me. And because, when push comes to shove I really want to be a good humanist, and that means engaging with everything that humanity has to offer me, regardless of whether I think it accords me due respect.

Peace out AB, I'm not going to engage with you any more. You know I love you dearly, but this fixation with a few words in the BB isn't going anywhere. I'm much more interested in joyously examining why it works, rather than cynically picking over why it shouldn't.
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Old 02-10-2007, 11:50 AM
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Nolonger, I'm sorry too, if I was short. You know I read what you write with great interest too.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:24 PM
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Hi Paul

I really do not think that I have said much about AA meetings other than the quality of the material they study. I think the message that I have communicated is that people are the best thing in AA. Still what a organization teaching is primary in regards to what the organization communicates.

I say again that does not matter when the AA texts were written, they are being taught today as if they were the truth!

I am not being cynical about this just stating what the AA texts teach and a 5% success rate is nothing to tout about, the larger group of Alcoholics that quit on their own are the real heros, unless you do not count them as "real alcoholics".

I would not call this a fixation but it is a good point to engage conversation that gives "AA extreme supporters" little room to "spin" the issues

AB





Originally Posted by paulmh View Post
Time and again we have these conversations AB!

Your experience in the rooms must be very different from mine. I've never been treated with anything other than the utmost respect by members of the fellowship. The BB was written seventy-odd years ago, by one bloke. It rings with his particular life experience - and also, nicely enough, with his illness. It is deeply flawed, just like me. I love it. I have learned to love it even though there's lots I don't agree with. I have learned to love it primarily because it's a big part of a life-saving change in me. I have learned to love it because it represents that paradigm shift for me - that emotional alteration that happened when I learned to love things not simply because I agree with them or they validate me - there's a poster I've seen in one meeting, just once, made me think of you - I typed it in my pda -



I love the fellowship and the principles that underpin it. I love the drama and magic of accidents and mistakes and grandiose plans overturned that brought the fellowship into being. I love it in spite of itself. And because it saved my life, in spite of me. And because, when push comes to shove I really want to be a good humanist, and that means engaging with everything that humanity has to offer me, regardless of whether I think it accords me due respect.

Peace out AB, I'm not going to engage with you any more. You know I love you dearly, but this fixation with a few words in the BB isn't going anywhere. I'm much more interested in joyously examining why it works, rather than cynically picking over why it shouldn't.
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:20 PM
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The reason that any previous attempts to set up a secular or alternative forum have failed is because they turned into an AA vs Anti-AA debate forum. When I set up this forum I was pretty much on my own in the belief that it would work. I took full responsiblity and told the other moderators that I would handle it if it turned into another debate forum or flame war. We've already had numerous discussions on the Alcoholism forum for many years concerning the positive and negative aspects of AA. If that is what this forum is going to be used for it is no longer needed and just a duplicate of a forum we already have in place. I worked hard on finding the right format for this forum with many failed attempts. I could see that our growing number of secular members needed a place of their own. I started the Spirituality forum for the same reason.

This is a forum to share wisdom, inspiration, thoughts, experiences, and insights that foster personal growth, education and enrichment within our secular community.

This forum is not an alternative 12-step forum. It is open to all our members who approach their life with secular viewpoints.

yet Sober Recovery expects Atheists to love what was written?????
Soberrecovery has no control over what it written in the text anymore than you do. We can all write 5000 pages about what is written and it will still be there whether we agree or disagree with it.

You are free to share personal struggles and obstacles you face and seek solutions.

Example: I went to a meeting tonight and asked this guy to sponsor me. When I said I was an atheist and cannot use a HP he told me he couldn't sponsor me and told me I would fail without a HP. I was offended and felt isolated and alone. I need the support of a group to stay sober. How can I continue meetings when those in this group have this attitude?

Debating about the program itself and the way it is set up is not personal and we are not going to find solutions for that here. Those discussions just open up a never ending debate on opinions that are for or against a program we can't change from here. If you want to make changes to the program I would encourage you to seek out groups or internet sites that are working toward that and join in their efforts.
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Old 02-10-2007, 03:04 PM
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Sober Recovery expects only that folks follow the rules. The rules that were agreed to upon registering, and that they use a little common sense, and mutual respect.

None of that has anything to do with religion, spirituality, atheists, book thumpers, or loners.
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Old 02-10-2007, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Example: I went to a meeting tonight and asked this guy to sponsor me. When I said I was an atheist and cannot use a HP he told me he couldn't sponsor me and told me I would fail without a HP. I was offended and felt isolated and alone. I need the support of a group to stay sober. How can I continue meetings when those in this group have this attitude?
That's been me more times than I can count. Knowing that situation is my only choice makes me feel defeated before I even try.
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Old 02-10-2007, 04:41 PM
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Hi Morning Glory

Why are you assuming that critical discussion about AA must be intended to change the program or rewrite the program? If I had a solution for AA's issues I would share it. The best thing for new secular people entering AA is to show them the program in a honest light that shines on both the positive and negative aspects of the program.

Sober Recovery has no problem promoting the positive aspects of AA, but without the negative side Sober Recovey's message is incomplete about AA and dishonest to the newcomer.

AB





Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
The reason that any previous attempts to set up a secular or alternative forum have failed is because they turned into an AA vs Anti-AA debate forum. When I set up this forum I was pretty much on my own in the belief that it would work. I took full responsiblity and told the other moderators that I would handle it if it turned into another debate forum or flame war. We've already had numerous discussions on the Alcoholism forum for many years concerning the positive and negative aspects of AA. If that is what this forum is going to be used for it is no longer needed and just a duplicate of a forum we already have in place. I worked hard on finding the right format for this forum with many failed attempts. I could see that our growing number of secular members needed a place of their own. I started the Spirituality forum for the same reason.

This is a forum to share wisdom, inspiration, thoughts, experiences, and insights that foster personal growth, education and enrichment within our secular community.

This forum is not an alternative 12-step forum. It is open to all our members who approach their life with secular viewpoints.



Soberrecovery has no control over what it written in the text anymore than you do. We can all write 5000 pages about what is written and it will still be there whether we agree or disagree with it.

You are free to share personal struggles and obstacles you face and seek solutions.

Example: I went to a meeting tonight and asked this guy to sponsor me. When I said I was an atheist and cannot use a HP he told me he couldn't sponsor me and told me I would fail without a HP. I was offended and felt isolated and alone. I need the support of a group to stay sober. How can I continue meetings when those in this group have this attitude?

Debating about the program itself and the way it is set up is not personal and we are not going to find solutions for that here. Those discussions just open up a never ending debate on opinions that are for or against a program we can't change from here. If you want to make changes to the program I would encourage you to seek out groups or internet sites that are working toward that and join in their efforts.
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Old 02-10-2007, 05:43 PM
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That's been me more times than I can count. Knowing that situation is my only choice makes me feel defeated before I even try.
Maybe there are more choices. When I read your post I thought of the starter kits on the Smart forum. Maybe a free ad on craigs list in your area. It might take time, but eventually maybe you could form a small group in your area. Then maybe that would take off and more groups could be formed. Someone has to start somewhere. You guys have a large group and it seems that everyone is disconnected. It takes time to bring people together. I wish someone would try it and see what happens.
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:05 PM
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I tried a couple of times to start a LifeRing meeting in this area without much success. But, this is small town Central Washington.
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Old 02-10-2007, 07:04 PM
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This site has a place to search for meetings or post a meeting. There are a few in your area, but they are a little far away from you. If you ever feel like a drive you could visit now and then.

http://www.secularrecovery.com/index.html
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:11 PM
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Thanks MG.

Fellow posters, please also remember that there are many here that work other programs. It is nice for us to have a forum to discuss SMART, SOS and LifeRing just like the AA/NA folks do down below.

The 12 steps did not work for me. However, I went looking for another program, and found SMART Online. I can go to online meetings, I have a toolkit I can hide in the back of my binder at school.

For some of us, it does not matter what drug we use, whether it is alcohol, narcs, or cigs. We just need to work on getting on with our lives. We work our SECULAR RECOVERY. Thanks for remembering that.
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Old 02-11-2007, 02:18 AM
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Hi Alera

I guess the best message that this Forum can give to newcomers is that anyone that pro-actively works on their sobriety at meetings online or off can stay sober.

AB


Originally Posted by Alera View Post
Thanks MG.

Fellow posters, please also remember that there are many here that work other programs. It is nice for us to have a forum to discuss SMART, SOS and LifeRing just like the AA/NA folks do down below.

The 12 steps did not work for me. However, I went looking for another program, and found SMART Online. I can go to online meetings, I have a toolkit I can hide in the back of my binder at school.

For some of us, it does not matter what drug we use, whether it is alcohol, narcs, or cigs. We just need to work on getting on with our lives. We work our SECULAR RECOVERY. Thanks for remembering that.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:32 AM
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And my SECULAR RECOVERY is undertaken in AA. I'd be grateful if you could remember that, too.
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