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From 12 steps to AVRT

Old 05-26-2018, 10:12 AM
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From 12 steps to AVRT

Hi everyone,

AA and the 12 steps helped me at the time, but there were some things that harmed me. Generally speaking, I felt like my sponsor was constantly beating me up, blaming me for any issues, and everything was my fault for not trusting and relying on God or for going back to ego. I'm tired of it.

I also don't like the notion anymore of being "powerless" and needing a "higher power".

What's missing from my 12 step work, was self-love, self-strength, empowerment from within, affirmations, thinking of my successes and positive attributes, etc. All the focus on character defects was so negative and just gave me more reasons to beat myself up and fed my depression. I also find that admitting each time that I'm an alcoholic, just further leads to labeling myself and making me feel badly about myself.

I'd like to learn more about how to build the self-awareness of my AV. Is "Rational Recovery" still the main book to learn about AVRT? I get overwhelmed easily and I also have to avoid my OCD setting off, which makes me gather a ton of information without actually processing any of it or putting it into motion.

Are there others here who had the same experience with AA/12 steps and found AVRT to be more self-empowering?

Does anyone here combine AA/12 steps with AVRT?
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:26 AM
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Hi Pathwaytofree,

12 steps are off topic for this forum. So we will have to limit the topic to this portion of your post.

I'd like to learn more about how to build the self-awareness of my AV. Is "Rational Recovery" still the main book to learn about AVRT? I get overwhelmed easily and I also have to avoid my OCD setting off, which makes me gather a ton of information without actually processing any of it or putting it into motion.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Hi Pathwaytofree,

12 steps are off topic for this forum. So we will have to limit the topic to this portion of your post.
Ok no problem. I thought it'd be okay to talk about them in regards to what didn't work, vs carrying the AA message. My apologies for my misunderstanding. Thank you. :-)
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree View Post
I'd like to learn more about how to build the self-awareness of my AV. Is "Rational Recovery" still the main book to learn about AVRT? I get overwhelmed easily and I also have to avoid my OCD setting off, which makes me gather a ton of information without actually processing any of it or putting it into motion.
Yes, “Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, The Revolutionary Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous” by Jack Trimpey, 1996, is still the best and most complete book for learning Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.

It first sets the existing context within our social milieu that has become oppositional to independently acheived permanent abstinence in order to fully expose the kinds of support that your Addictive Voice will find to try to get you to drink again. It’s really a great book just for understanding why there is soooo much ongoing and unresolved chemical dependency and addiction all around us today.

Then it teaches a quick and uncomplicated method of recovery based on a simple (biological) structural model of addiction: Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.

As regards to OCD, that sort of superlative stubbornness is not too far removed from the Big Plan of Rational Recovery’s Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. The Big Plan is the unconditional pledge “I will never drink again.” It is the real once-in-a-lifetime thing. Nothing like the similar sounding fake pledges done again and again while wallowing in hangover upon hangover.

I had been alcohol dependent for over ten years when, finally, after sobering up from a bad drunk, I obsessively and compulsively REFUSED to act upon my own habituated desire to drink any more. And it all had to do with NOT taking action to drink, or as you so nicely put it, “...without... putting it into motion.” And AVRT will expose the desire to put it into motion every time.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Yes, “Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, The Revolutionary Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous” by Jack Trimpey, 1996, is still the best and most complete book for learning Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.
Thank you!
It first sets the existing context within our social milieu that has become oppositional to independently acheived permanent abstinence in order to fully expose the kinds of support that your Addictive Voice will find to try to get you to drink again. It’s really a great book just for understanding why there is soooo much ongoing and unresolved chemical dependency and addiction all around us today.
This is really interesting. I do find that my "disease" says stuff to me every now and then about why it'd be okay to drink. But I don't want to view it anymore as a "disease". AVRT sounds a lot like CBT.

Then it teaches a quick and uncomplicated method of recovery based on a simple (biological) structural model of addiction: Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.
I really like the sound of this.

As regards to OCD, that sort of superlative stubbornness is not too far removed from the Big Plan of Rational Recovery’s Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. The Big Plan is the unconditional pledge “I will never drink again.” It is the real once-in-a-lifetime thing. Nothing like the similar sounding fake pledges done again and again while wallowing in hangover upon hangover.
I'm not sure I understand this. Can you explain? My "pledges" were always that I really wanted to stop. But I didn't have the CONVICTION to stop. I found myself engaging in my addiction when it was the last thing in the world that I wanted to do, and I didn't understand why I couldn't control it. But what was missing, was a sense of conviction, inner strength, and ability to be aware of and to not listen to the voice that had me ignore consequences, and make me think I could control it this time. Is that what you mean?

I had been alcohol dependent for over ten years when, finally, after sobering up from a bad drunk, I obsessively and compulsively REFUSED to act upon my own habituated desire to drink any more. And it all had to do with NOT taking action to drink, or as you so nicely put it, “...without... putting it into motion.” And AVRT will expose the desire to put it into motion every time.
This is really cool. It sounds like you have the power over the AV, and that is what I want. To use that inner strength to kill the beast, instead of feeling powerless.

My therapist teaches kids how to view anxious thoughts or OCD thoughts like a separate beast, and one to stomp on and yell back at. That's sort of what I want with my alcoholism, and it sort of sounds like AVRT is like that. I want to show it that I am stronger than it, and it can't mess with me anymore. I want to feel empowered, and not power-less.
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Old 05-27-2018, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pathwaytofree
Originally Posted by gerandtwine
Yes, “Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction, The Revolutionary Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous” by Jack Trimpey, 1996, is still the best and most complete book for learning Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.
Thank you!

Originally Posted by gerandtwine
It first sets the existing context within our social milieu that has become oppositional to independently acheived permanent abstinence in order to fully expose the kinds of support that your Addictive Voice will find to try to get you to drink again. It’s really a great book just for understanding why there is soooo much ongoing and unresolved chemical dependency and addiction all around us today.
This is really interesting. I do find that my "disease" says stuff to me every now and then about why it'd be okay to drink. But I don't want to view it anymore as a "disease". AVRT sounds a lot like CBT.
AVRT is not like CBT, and of course, a “disease” cannot talk. AVRT is not a therapy at all, it simply teaches how to take your healthy, but misplaced, appetite for more of the deep pleasure of alcohol and separate all those thoughts and feelings from the rest of all of YOU. AVRT is a dissociative technique. Using it results in your being able to recognize your Addictive Voice, and that recognition leads you logically and inevitably into making the Big Plan and becoming a common teetotaler whose life is no different from someone who never drank and never will.

Originally Posted by pathwaytofree
Originally Posted by gerandtwine
Then it teaches a quick and uncomplicated method of recovery based on a simple (biological) structural model of addiction: Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.
I really like the sound of this.
I encourage you to obtain and carefully read a copy of the book.

Originally Posted by pathwaytofree
Originally Posted by gerandtwine
As regards to OCD, that sort of superlative stubbornness is not too far removed from the Big Plan of Rational Recovery’s Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. The Big Plan is the unconditional pledge “I will never drink again.” It is the real once-in-a-lifetime thing. Nothing like the similar sounding fake pledges done again and again while wallowing in hangover upon hangover.
I'm not sure I understand this. Can you explain? My "pledges" were always that I really wanted to stop. But I didn't have the CONVICTION to stop. I found myself engaging in my addiction when it was the last thing in the world that I wanted to do, and I didn't understand why I couldn't control it. But what was missing, was a sense of conviction, inner strength, and ability to be aware of and to not listen to the voice that had me ignore consequences, and make me think I could control it this time. Is that what you mean?
You’ve described the iconic “fake pledge” (in red above). Recognize the difference between “want” and “will”, and you will see that your numerous “pledges” came straight out of your Addictive Voice. Yes, conviction is in play, so is common decency, personal morality, and desire for a better life.

By simply stubbornly sticking to using AVRT (separating YOUR voluntary muscle activity from the desire to drink) results in the Big Plan and permanent abstinence.

There is nothing wrong or bad about having an Addictive Voice. It is actually a sign of a healthy midbrain. Just don’t ever act upon it. Separate from IT. Putting alcohol in your mouth actually requires a LOT of VERY deliberate actions over a very obvious period of time.

Please explain in detail why it is so hard for you to turn down that first drink, and I think you will begin to see what I mean that making the Big Plan can only be done ONCE in your lifetime.

Originally Posted by pathwaytofree
Originally Posted by gerandtwine
I had been alcohol dependent for over ten years when, finally, after sobering up from a bad drunk, I obsessively and compulsively REFUSED to act upon my own habituated desire to drink any more. And it all had to do with NOT taking action to drink, or as you so nicely put it, “...without... putting it into motion.” And AVRT will expose the desire to put it into motion every time.
This is really cool. It sounds like you have the power over the AV, and that is what I want. To use that inner strength to kill the beast, instead of feeling powerless.

My therapist teaches kids how to view anxious thoughts or OCD thoughts like a separate beast, and one to stomp on and yell back at. That's sort of what I want with my alcoholism, and it sort of sounds like AVRT is like that. I want to show it that I am stronger than it, and it can't mess with me anymore. I want to feel empowered, and not power-less.
“Want” is one of the Addictive Voice’s favorite words. The AV is totally comfortable if you “want” to be a common teetotaler, just don’t actually DO it.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
AVRT is not like CBT, and of course, a “disease” cannot talk. AVRT is not a therapy at all, it simply teaches how to take your healthy, but misplaced, appetite for more of the deep pleasure of alcohol and separate all those thoughts and feelings from the rest of all of YOU. AVRT is a dissociative technique. Using it results in your being able to recognize your Addictive Voice, and that recognition leads you logically and inevitably into making the Big Plan and becoming a common teetotaler whose life is no different from someone who never drank and never will.
Thank you for explaining that. So what do you all do in addition to AVRT?

I encourage you to obtain and carefully read a copy of the book.
Thanks for the suggestion. I am planning to do so.

You’ve described the iconic “fake pledge” (in red above). Recognize the difference between “want” and “will”, and you will see that your numerous “pledges” came straight out of your Addictive Voice. Yes, conviction is in play, so is common decency, personal morality, and desire for a better life.
This was frustrating to see in hindsight that it was a "fake pledge" since I really did want to stop with every cell of my being, but couldn't. That being said, I don't know if the conviction was there. I like that you mention conviction, desire for a better life, etc. etc. because that is more empowering than focusing on the powerlessness of alcoholism. However, I will continue to remind myself that I am powerless once alcohol goes into my body. But I don't think I am powerless over the decision to pick up that first drink.

By simply stubbornly sticking to using AVRT (separating YOUR voluntary muscle activity from the desire to drink) results in the Big Plan and permanent abstinence.
I like this idea of separating it. Separating the compulsion to drink, from the activity of it.

There is nothing wrong or bad about having an Addictive Voice. It is actually a sign of a healthy midbrain.
I am so glad you said this. I just explained to someone in a PM how I was taught that having an AV like this is bad, it means I'm not spiritually fit, my mind is broken, etc etc. It did not do good things to my already low self esteem/confidence to think this way.

Just don’t ever act upon it. Separate from IT. Putting alcohol in your mouth actually requires a LOT of VERY deliberate actions over a very obvious period of time.
This is a different way of thinking. It used to be sort of compulsive/maybe even a little impulsive for me, I'm not sure. But I can use the "pause" tool, to separate from the AV, once I build the awareness of it and try not to run away from it.

Please explain in detail why it is so hard for you to turn down that first drink, and I think you will begin to see what I mean that making the Big Plan can only be done ONCE in your lifetime.
Well it's been years since I have picked up a drink, fortunately. But looking back, it was because the AV seemed to be automatic. I wasn't viewing it as separate from me, so I listened to those thoughts. I believed their lies. I believed that if I drank I would feel better. My AV had me ignore all the past consequences and had me drink even thought my true self did not want to. I hope that makes sense.

“Want” is one of the Addictive Voice’s favorite words. The AV is totally comfortable if you “want” to be a common teetotaler, just don’t actually DO it.
I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean that the AV doesn't really care what you want, because it only cares what IT wants? And that it needs us to listen to it, in order to survive? If that's it, then it's sort of similar to what I learned about the "ego" part of alcoholism.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. I'm learning a lot from everyone, and I am very grateful. :-)
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree
My "pledges" were always that I really wanted to stop. But I didn't have the CONVICTION to stop. I found myself engaging in my addiction when it was the last thing in the world that I wanted to do, and I didn't understand why I couldn't control it.
Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree View Post
Well it's been years since I have picked up a drink, fortunately.
Do you understand why these two quotes seem so incongruous to each other? I thought you were still drinking.

It perfectly logical that you take this thread as a doorway to exit the Recovery Group Movement completely. Your Addictive Voice has mutated into focusing on a one-day-at-a-time recovery Way of Life thinking. There’s no reason to coddle to IT.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
It perfectly logical that you take this thread as a doorway to exit the Recovery Group Movement completely. Your Addictive Voice has mutated into focusing on a one-day-at-a-time recovery Way of Life thinking. There’s no reason to coddle to IT.
Other than the fact that the "one-day-at-a-time recovery Way of Life thinking" worked.
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:53 PM
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It certainly seems the OP was not /is not comfortable with their internal framing of their recovery.

From a Permanent Abstinence Based recovery framing it is perfectly logical to prefer being permanently recovered to perpetually recovering.

Believing/claiming that one must struggle daily to remain abstinent is really only a self reinforcing idea, not a universal one. And one everyone is free to adopt or dismiss.

Putting down the bottle and walking away is as hard as you want it to be.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Do you understand why these two quotes seem so incongruous to each other? I thought you were still drinking.

It perfectly logical that you take this thread as a doorway to exit the Recovery Group Movement completely. Your Addictive Voice has mutated into focusing on a one-day-at-a-time recovery Way of Life thinking. There’s no reason to coddle to IT.
I don't understand your post.

No I am not still drinking. Does one have to still be drinking to do AVRT? Maybe I ought to learn more about it first.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
It certainly seems the OP was not /is not comfortable with their internal framing of their recovery.
OP here. Maybe I'm just tired but I don't understand this statement, either. From a couple of very kind folks on SR who have PM'd me, I am seeing things more clearly now. Maybe I will try to do like what Robbie did, and combine AA with AVRT, using my inner strength to guide me this time.

From a Permanent Abstinence Based recovery framing it is perfectly logical to prefer being permanently recovered to perpetually recovering.
I was taught "recovered", not "recovering". The groups are starting to let go of that incorrect term. They use "recovered" but not "cured", because I still can never drink again.
Believing/claiming that one must struggle daily to remain abstinent is really only a self reinforcing idea, not a universal one. And one everyone is free to adopt or dismiss.
White knuckling is a struggle. Abstinence based sobriety is a struggle. True recovery is not.

Putting down the bottle and walking away is as hard as you want it to be.
It depends on one's recovery (no matter which program they follow).
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:09 PM
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By recovery I mean the act of ending an addiction by deciding to remain permanently abstinent.
I get the sense that by recovery you mean something else. By using AVRT I ended my addiction by making a Big Plan and becoming a teetotaler . I recognize and identify any residual desire for intoxication as my Beast and its bark, the AV ,and simply dismiss it.

IT struggles with My abstinence , not Me
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:36 AM
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Most people find AA and AVRT to be incompatible given that the AA program is so full of Addictive Voice. AVRT is about self mastery - no dependence on anything other than oneself. Also we don't seek to have the desire removed for us, but instead learn to live with residual desire by separating from that part of ourselves. The idea of one-day-at-a-time is Addictive Voice since the Beast of addiction is more comfortable with the idea that tomorrow is always a new day and will keep that hope alive. AVRT squashes that hope and says never again.

If you are looking to leave recovery groups then Rational Recovery can be very helpful to you as it will help you see through some of the collective addictive voice that you've be exposed to. AVRT is not a program, it's a thought filtering technique. Any thought, feeling, or image that supports future use or doubt about ones ability to abstain is labeled as AV and dismissed.
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:49 AM
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Hi Pathwaytofree, I joined SR after I left AA. It was my experience that AVRT/AA were not compatible with my goal of attaining freedom from alcoholism, by securing permanent, condition-less, abstinence.

However, I’ve located an SR thread, which contains posts from members who speak of their utilisation of both AA/AVRT. RobbyRobot also posted therein. Hope this helps.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...s-rr-avrt.html
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Old 06-02-2018, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
It certainly seems the OP was not /is not comfortable with their internal framing of their recovery.

From a Permanent Abstinence Based recovery framing it is perfectly logical to prefer being permanently recovered to perpetually recovering.

Believing/claiming that one must struggle daily to remain abstinent is really only a self reinforcing idea, not a universal one. And one everyone is free to adopt or dismiss.

Putting down the bottle and walking away is as hard as you want it to be.
Just trying to get my head around a couple of things. If abstinence means no alcohol at all, then that would be at the base of all recovery methods. A fundamental, so to speak. And if permanent means for good, then I have been part of a permanent abstinence based recovery program for quite a while.

I recovered, as was promised, and have never been told, or told anyone, that I must struggle daily. In fact. to take a liberty and quote from the basic text of the organisation with whom I recovered, " We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it" Not an endless struggle.

What you may be referring to is rehab speak which has permeated the recovery scene. If you owned shares in a rehab, you would know the value of repeat business, which is what is behind these ideas.

Putting the bottle down etc>? Well if you walked a mile in my shoes, you mightn't be so sure of that.

By the way, I am all in favour of permanent abstinence based recovery. I really don't think there is any other way to be recovered.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:25 AM
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Gottalife
I’ve been reading SR for years, I’m familiar with your view.

It’s great for both of us that we see permanent abstinence as the cure .

Cheers
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:36 AM
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PathwayToFree...is this about your inner recovery method or more about recent issues with people in your home group, like you posted in the other forum?

Because people are still going to act the way they will even with AVRT.

I'm not for or against any of the methods that work for people. I am against throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

If you're still struggling with personal boundaries, that isn't part of AVRT: in fact AVRT is a singular pursuit focused only on [insert addiction behavior here.] There are no meetings or fellowship and so it is not going to help address boundary issues.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:10 PM
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Is it useful to widen the question to: does AVRT have anything to offer a long-sober person?
If so, what?
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:38 AM
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Fini, if you carefully re-read Pathwaytofree’s thread-opener post, it contains strong clues for answers to the question you raised.
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