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From 12 steps to AVRT

Old 06-03-2018, 04:17 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
is it useful to widen the question to: Does avrt have anything to offer a long-sober person?
If so, what?
Absolutely, yes!
Thanks fini for so boldly intuiting what happens to so many people in the Recovery Group Movement (RGM). After almost 15 years abstinent AVRT was the ONLY thing that changed my life for a VAST improvement.

I entered the RGM (at my lawyers suggestion) to receive favorable treatment from the government regarding my driving privileges. (Fortunately, I never hurt anyone DUI). And I got very stuck there in the RGM.

It took AVRT to finally help me overcome my 15 year Stockholm Syndrome of trying to make my life fit within the confines of the RGM. I am SOOOooo grateful for Jack Trimpey’s boldness at making the move away from REBT to AVRT. He deserves to feel a LOT of warmth in his heart by knowing how he has helped SO many in a way that no one else dared do.

So, when someone blurts out ”Other than the fact that the "one-day-at-a-time recovery Way of Life thinking" worked”, many people (most of whom are naturally not here on SR to read it because they have moved on in their lives) KNOW such an assumption is very often NOT TRUE at all: that very often a phormer drunk establishes permanent abstinence IN SPITE of wallowing in a one-day-at-a-time recovery that is grossly distorting their personal and family life.

Like many thousands upon thousands of others, I exited the RGM and never looked back. The RGM made me feel my permanent abstinence was very tenuous. Not so any more. I now spend only seconds per year on seriously wondering about having more to drink/drug.
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Old 06-03-2018, 04:38 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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I think AVRT is useful for anyone who questions their alcohol ( or any intoxicant) consumption.

In AVRT , the Beast( desire for the intoxicant) doesn't cease to exist and is forever capable of barking AV, recognizing , identifying and dismissing the bark is always 'useful' , and when familiar with the technique is practically effortless. " Nope" takes about a second to think.

"Long sober" implies an alternative and is therefore AV. Not being familiar with the specific AVRT nomenclature doesn't imply that one will not continue to be an abstainer , but becoming familiar with the technique and its concepts could allow one to be more comfortable or confident and cement the veracity of their resolve.
It seems an alternative would be to in a frame of mind that sees oneself as sober and 'hoping' to stay that 'way' , but hesitant to say or use the n-word , which by the lens of AVRT is unrecognized AV . " Never say Never, count your time and bide it, because you don't / can't know what can derail your 'sobriety' come what may"
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:22 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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gee, sorry for the huge print.
i posted from my phone (have never done that before) and it showed up so tiny that i had to increase the font to even make it visible.
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:36 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Tatsy,
i have read the OP quite carefully the first time, and am not looking for clues to anything. i decided to just ask

GT,

as you now know, the font size was unintentional.
as a member of what you consistently insist on calling RGM and describe in terms i find do not fit whatsoever, i am not wallowing, nor in one-day-at-a-time tenuous abstinence.

i did just read some of the thread Tatsy linked to, and found Peter G's post interesting for how a person combines both.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...25-post37.html
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Old 06-03-2018, 09:32 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Hi fini, we must be on different wavelengths, but I presumed, given the number of years you’ve actively posted here in Secular, regarding AVRT (against your background of AA) that you would’ve understood my reply to you. I agree, PeterG’s post on the thread was interesting, which is why I posted the link.

Never mind.......it’s probably more beneficial to Pathwaytofree to read and post any questions here, rather than us making up questions and posting responses, on her behalf.
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Old 06-03-2018, 10:50 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery (7 Viewing)
Self-Empowering Recovery, through the lens of Addictive Voice Recognition.
12 step topics are off topic for this forum and posts will be removed.
No Program Bashing. No Off Topic Debates.

Refrain from outside agendas. I see a lot of bashing of the recovery movement or the treatment industry. I see a lot of references to the 12 step program without actually naming it. Everyone knows what you are saying even you don't actually use the name. Don't try to convert by letting everyone know what is wrong with everything out there . We had an RR forum up years ago and it only lasted 3 days because the whole focus what on discrediting what a lot of our members on other forums use for their recovery.

What you can do. You can talk about specific details of what you may recognize as AV. Example: Relapse prevention is AV. Counting days is AV. Thinking in terms of "One day at a time" is AV. (I'm guessing)
Explain why. I know deprogramming is a part of the process and I think there are respectful ways of doing that, that don't violate our rules.
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Old 06-03-2018, 11:40 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Hi Tomsteve, how does your post assist the OP, Pathwaytofree, who raised the matter of AA/AVRT here? Fini has engaged proactively in the conversation and it may be good, if you did likewise.

Pathwaytofree raised questions. We as permanently sober people are knowledgeable and tolerant of methods we haven’t found worked for us, yet would never try to enter the AA threads and shut them down. We are just trying to offer our experience to Pathwaytofree.

How would your attempt at closing down Pathwaytofree’s thread assist her? If you have any positive input, then I look forward to your posts: but censorship won’t help her, in my experience. Censorship harmed me. Just saying.
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Old 06-03-2018, 12:39 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Seriously tomsteve, why are you so threatened? Let the mods do their jobs. Don't come here and read our conversations if they upset you. I don't read in the AA forum because they upset me, but I certainly wouldn't take it upon myself to start trying to police you guys and gals if I did.
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Old 06-03-2018, 01:45 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
Is it useful to widen the question to: does AVRT have anything to offer a long-sober person?
If so, what?
As someone who relapsed once after 5 years and who very rarely has any thoughts of drinking, I am glad to be aware of the technique and to know how to recognize my AV and dissociate myself from it. Might come in handy some day.

I am also into water fasting and intermittent fasting for weight control and also because of its health benefits (reduces inflamation, autophagy etc.. ). I use AVRT all the time when it comes to that.
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Old 06-03-2018, 07:14 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Carlotta, thanks.
that is what i was wondering and seemed possible or even likely to me.

i got sober with peer support in Lifering and did not use the stepwork until years later. it makes sense to me that recognizing the AV , via a technique, is useful in all kinds of areas.
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Old 06-03-2018, 07:18 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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". "Long sober" implies an alternative and is therefore AV"

dwtbd,
I do not see it that way. "still sober" implies an alternative, imo, and is AV.
when i say a person is "long sober", to me it denotes simply a fact of lengthy sobriety.
can you share how you see it implying anything other than that?
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Old 06-03-2018, 07:33 PM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
". "Long sober" implies an alternative and is therefore AV"

dwtbd,
I do not see it that way. "still sober" implies an alternative, imo, and is AV.
when i say a person is "long sober", to me it denotes simply a fact of lengthy sobriety.
can you share how you see it implying anything other than that?
I made a contextual inference about your question/post, eg that specific wording in the context of this particular thread and the OP.

In general if someone were to use that terminology, I would understand it as you described.

I did think I explained in what context I would identify that terminology usage as AV.
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Old 06-03-2018, 09:43 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Hi Pathway,

we are getting carried away with our own views....how is this thread going for you?

i wonder if you see use in AVRT at this point in your life, now that you have a better idea what it pertains to?
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:19 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Yes, conviction is in play, so is common decency, personal morality, and desire for a better life.

By simply stubbornly sticking to using AVRT (separating YOUR voluntary muscle activity from the desire to drink) results in the Big Plan and permanent abstinence.
Once again, these terms are vague and don’t have any real meaning. Decency is not common to everyone, many people can’t even agree on what decency is, let alone what is decent and what isn’t. Personal “morality” is equally non-descriptive.

CBT recognizes distorted thinking that results in anxiety and substitutes more rational scripts. “I always fail at everything” becomes “I didn’t do x task to my satisfaction but now I know what to do next time...and I am very good at y and z tasks.” AVRT also does this, but names the distorted thinking the Addictive Voice, and allows true perception and accurate memory. “Wow, I had so much fun drinking at Gary’s wedding”becomes “At first, until I spilled a plate of food all over myself, threw up on the lawn, and hit on the bride’s mom.”

I never made a Big Plan, at least not officially. I recognized the negativity in my life stemming from my addictions and recognized that any perceived benefits from drinking and using were fleeting at best and swamped by the negative consequences. It was a very easy thing to do. As I was in a controlled environment I had the space to experience a week or so of sobriety and verify that every moment is better with a clear head.

I didn’t study the AVRT material, I skimmed it about 60 days into sobriety and said ‘yup, that’s mostly it. Add that to the data like the Step 1 realization and the cognitive work.

There is no magic to AVRT, nor is there for any recovery method. It made more sense to me and fit my psyche better than the higher power jazz, but never put much faith in the path, just on the result.
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:31 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree View Post
I like that you mention conviction, desire for a better life, etc. etc. because that is more empowering than focusing on the powerlessness of alcoholism. However, I will continue to remind myself that I am powerless once alcohol goes into my body. But I don't think I am powerless over the decision to pick up that first drink.
Thats the EXACT realization that I came to. Once I take a sip or do a line it takes on a life of its own and Bad Sht Happens. Maybe not right away, but it always does. I donít need to test that theory any more. The only logical course of action is not to drink or snort. At that point the AV kinda just went away. It had nothing to offer me.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:02 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gerandtwine
Yes, conviction is in play, so is common decency, personal morality, and desire for a better life.
Originally Posted by MindfulMan View Post
Once again, these terms are vague and don’t have any real meaning. Decency is not common to everyone, many people can’t even agree on what decency is, let alone what is decent and what isn’t. Personal “morality” is equally non-descriptive.
Here is a link to an interesting item dealing with drinking and a plea due to lack of what I would call common decency since what took place was not against the law.

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...jer-7164f2f824
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Old 06-04-2018, 02:36 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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I'm glad that the mods let this thread progress a little longer. One of the things that seems to become apparent when different approaches to recovery are discussed in the same thread is the tribalism that seems to result. The "either-or" mentality that seems to characterize the discussion quickly becomes apparent. I think there's many people from different recovery methods who can learn from each other. Some folks are more open minded than others and I believe these are the individuals who seem to have the best sobriety. I hope the OP revisits this thread and finds that thing which was the objective of their search.

RIP Robby. Thinking of you.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:56 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
Putting down the bottle and walking away is as hard as you want it to be.
This is a very powerful and practical sentence.

I just received the book and am looking forward to reading it.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:00 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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I believe nondrinkers have the best sobriety, the one they chose and are stuck with
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:07 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
I'm glad that the mods let this thread progress a little longer. One of the things that seems to become apparent when different approaches to recovery are discussed in the same thread is the tribalism that seems to result. The "either-or" mentality that seems to characterize the discussion quickly becomes apparent. I think there's many people from different recovery methods who can learn from each other. Some folks are more open minded than others and I believe these are the individuals who seem to have the best sobriety. I hope the OP revisits this thread and finds that thing which was the objective of their search.

RIP Robby. Thinking of you.
Thanks for this post, awuh. I used to be one of those who would likely cause or feed into the tribalism. But now I am trying to be open minded. A kind person on SR PM'd me about Robby and found his old thread for me to read. I was curious to read about what his experience was with combining AA with AVRT.

Thank you to the moderators for allowing this thread to continue, and for seeing what my intention was, even though I didn't clearly verbalize it.
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