kicknNscreamin

"Always say never." Love it!

Terminally Unique

I'm mostly posting this for the benefit of any never-addicted people who may stumble across this thread and wonder how AVRT might feel. I realize that it is almost impossible to imagine substance addiction, since it really is completely illogical, but it is useful to realize that addiction is a perversion of legitimate survival drives.

The additive mandate can actually feel much stronger than legitimate survival drives, but if you try the following exercise, you'll come close to being able to visualize it.

Say to yourself:
Any thoughts, feelings, or imagery which support your future intake of food are your Addictive Voice, the emotional-cognitive expression of your Beast. Those thoughts and feelings belong to IT, the Beast, while all other thoughts belong to you. Your body should feel the terror and threat to its survival and will start talking back to you.

If you don't hear your AV immediately, you certainly will come dinner time. :-)

kicknNscreamin

I'm having trouble with your example, TU. I don't hear my AV at all if I say, "I will never eat again, etc." I wonder if it's because I know I'm lying to myself?

Terminally Unique

That or you aren't hungry yet, which would be like making a Big Plan while you are high as a kite, in which case the Beast won't stir. Give it a few hours, though, and say it again when you start getting a little hungry. Hunger is a legitimate survival drive, though, so it is difficult to actually believe it.

soberlicious

I have friends that drink that say thinks like "wow, I tripped and fell and hit my head...and I was sober...lol can you believe that?!" What they mean is I was not drunk at the time, so yeah I see where you're coming from I think FT. I don't have an aversion to the word sober. When I use it, I just mean I don't drink. I mainly say "I don't drink", obviously, but I'm not gonna freak and have a Linda Blair moment if I use the word sober. Words don't bother me alot...it interests me to see why people choose the words they do, but I'm not very PC at all. By PC, I mean in any circle, as each group has it's own stance. Sometimes I think semantics definitely get in front of whatever ideas people may be trying to meaningly conversate about. When people have a strong aversion to a word, then the flow of ideas can be blocked or stopped. That's too bad.
Like the word "meeting" for example...click...LOL nuff said

kicknNscreamin

Uh oh. Hmmm.... just having some rambling thoughts here. Like, should I be worried that my AV isn't freaking out right this minute when I said, aloud, "I will never drink again and I will not change my mind."

Terminally Unique

No, you shouldn't be worried. The Beast dances to its own beat, so to speak, but if you want to make it stir, fire up a YouTube video review of your favorite stuff, where they go into great detail about taste, color, etc. Eventually, of course, after repeated beat-downs (by abstaining when it stirs), the SOB will get weak and pipe down.

For some it takes longer than others for that to happen, but don't assume that just because it isn't stirring right this minute that it won't some fine day next month, for example.

FT

You guys are making my synapses hurt.

FT

Terminally Unique

LOL. I do hope people ask questions, though. It does get me thinking, and hopefully it will leave a record of common questions for others to see. It has been a while since I read the book, so I probably should go back and read it again just so I have it clear in my head, but, of course, not as a condition of continued abstinence. My "Big Plan" is eternal. :-)

I'm not surprised by Elvis' questions, since the beginning is when the Beast really acts up, but it may throw some curve-balls even after some time has past. I'm somewhat surprised others who are just getting started don't have more questions sometimes.

freethinking

I have a question: how do you stay interested in this stuff after several years?

For me, whenever I have quit drinking in the past, I have had no urges whatsoever for several months and then it seems like BAM, I am at the liquor store and drunk out of nowhere. When I look back, it's hard to see how it happened....however in looking deeper and listening to another guy a few weeks back at a SMART meeting, I saw myself in him and realized I get to that state where I can say "f*ck it" after a month or so of feeling really angry and negative. So I have to really watch my thoughts when they start ruminating over things that are irrelevant and upsetting.

But my point/question is....I have yet to flat out have an urge to drink in 5 months. Instead, I have seen my AV when I start getting angry at people and my surroundings. However, I'd imagine in several years, I might not even think about the AV....I'm not sure. My schema on drinking has changed, and I guess I am surprised you (TU) are still so interested in AVRT since I think you have a few years behind you now. What motivates you? Because I can't really envision me being interested in this stuff too much as the years pass. In fact, it's hard now to stay interested in some ways.

**I should add I was a morning, noon and night drinker, but about every 6 weeks or so I would stop from anywhere to a week to 4 months. During the 3-4 month periods, the urge seemed to overtake me instantly and come out of nowhere after months of being dormant. No inner-debate whatsoever.

ElvisInASkirt

I've booked a trip to Las Vegas and I'm messing with it by searching for buffets that allow for unlimited beer and wine.

It goes 'OH RLY?!!' and my heart races. Then I feel sad by the reaction but very quickly catch myself reacting like this and realize that drinking would totally dull my enjoyment of the holiday and that since I only have a week there I need to make the most of my time.

I then get on with planning my holiday out properly and feel genuinely excited by the prospect of all the sober fun I can have (hell I'll even hit the penny machines).

One thing I've noticed is this - my world view has expanded quite a bit since 4th July 2011. Before holidays only revolved around drinking. If I'd thought about not drinking I'd feel something shrink inside and it'd go 'YOU'RE DEPRIVING US. YOU TRAITOR P***Y! GO PUT ON A SKIRT".

The thought of the taste of beer repulses me but the 'glow' appeals to Frank.

Frank is a harlot and is going down. I might even change his name to Francine if he brings up accidentally eating that chocolate liqueur candy that time.

I refuse to fall into the thinking that when I enjoy Vegas sober that then I'll have defeated all of this. I've defeated it in the only moment that is. Now.

I seriously feel like getting a tattoo now. 'Always Say Never' with a picture below of it of a gaunt Irishman pushing a goat into a ravine.

That'd work, wouldn't it?

Terminally Unique

This is the problem with the passive approach that many people take, whereby they literally hide from "slippery places" where alcohol is available. In doing this, though, they don't build up the skill of knowing how to react when an urge does come. AVRT takes a different approach; although it would be a good idea to get rid of the supply while you read the material on AVRT, and possibly for a few weeks, you don't hide from slippery places after that.

You don't raise an army after you've been attacked, you raise an army during peacetime in order to be prepared. Let your Beast come out and play so that you are prepared. If you think you are secure, go buy a bottle of your favorite stuff and look at it for an hour in order to observe your thoughts toward it. You might be surprised.

If nothing happens, you can try the exercise a few days later. Abstinence is like a muscle; the more you do it, the easier it becomes. For a good analogy, think about learning how to drive a car. At first, driving consumes your thoughts, and you have to constantly think about the gears, traffic, etc, but eventually, it becomes second nature.

No, as time goes on, you probably won't be thinking about the AV, because it gets easier and easier to recognize and detach from as time goes on. It will eventually become second nature, and I don't expect people who learn AVRT to hang around here forever. In fact, I would encourage them to move on. However, if this thread stays up, people will be able to go back and read it and benefit from the experiences of others.

As for what motivates me, I won't go into details, but information on planned, permanent abstinence is usually purposefully suppressed, and many people suffer as a result. There is no inherent evangelism in AVRT, no need to spread the gospel, so to speak, so that is not what is driving me. I am trying to help others avoid certain pitfalls that I have personally seen too many people fall victim to.

freethinking

Well, in my case I am not hiding. I don't say that defensively either but it is just reality. I drank in my home, alone. I went out to the liquor store each morning, and by night had usually polished everything off. Rinse and repeat the next day. My husband doesn't drink, so unless I am drinking, there is none in the house. I've just lead my life as I normally would since quitting...gone to some social events, gone to dinner, etc - I am sure alcohol was there but I don't remember it effecting me. Next weekend we are having people over and I'm sure we'll serve alcohol here. But like I said, no urges yet. Maybe I will try the bottle of vodka idea, but I am not sold on it right now. I am not sure if I am convinced of that approach or if I feel it is a bad idea....food for thought though, thanks.

Terminally Unique

It's up to you, since only you can know how secure you are. That said, if you have truly made a proper Big Plan and decided that you will never drink again, and never change your mind, why should this pose a threat? Pondering that question alone may be enough to get you thinking about whether or not your Big Plan is secure, as opposed to being another typical quit on a trial basis.

soberlicious

LOL are you saying that by giving the beast a female name that would make it weaker? When my sons say things like "you're throwing like a girl" that's when I bean 'em in the head with the ball. ha.

I say yes! but then I always think ink is a good idea...

lol...
yeah, but no...this forum is too interesting to leave

kicknNscreamin

Went to karaoke tonight - - deciding whether or not to go and sitting in the parking lot deciding whether or not to go inside were the toughest parts.

Once inside, I owned the place and it felt like home.

I laughed, loved, and sang a song by each of my favorite artists before saying my goodbyes. It was a fun time and I'm glad to be back.

I got this.

Stayinfree

This thread and the responses, have changed my life and I just wanted to come out from my isolation to thank you all.

TU.......I want to publicly thank you for bringing AVRT here to SR and for your response to me in one of the earlier threads, that and reading all your posts have made a huge difference and I am now happy to never drink again!

I was a daily wine drinker and a chronic relapser, whenever I made a decision to quit I always failed. My life was unbearable under the surface and I was fast reaching the point where I didn't want to continue to live with the struggle anymore.

I did the crash course a couple of years ago, and just like when I read Allen Carr, I stopped for a short while, but started back up again quite soon. I have attended AA in the past and most of my thinking was centered around 'I will never be able to do this without help', but I didn't want any help, so therefore, I will be doomed to fail no matter what I try.

When you started up this thread, I bought the book and stopped again, only to start again.........but you responded to me, I listened and took your advice, reread the parts I hadn't quite got first time around, and that time it did sink in.........I made my big plan, really commited to it this time, and it really does feel effortless.

That's not to say I haven't had any beast activity, because I have, but just reaffirming my big plan has really worked for me. My beast wants to say 'so far', but I am saying 'I will never drink again and I will never change my mind'

So keep on doing what you are doing, even the worst of us can 'get' it eventually.

freethinking

I'll be honest, I haven't made any big plan (I use a combo of AVRT from RR along with the ABC stuff from SMART, mainly - but do not wholly follow either SMART or RR). I don't know that I feel it is necessary and I guess the way that I think, I am not sure that my mind buys really adamant "never again" statements when it comes to something I have done repeatedly for over 20 years. This is the first time in my life, however, where I feel I have even had any desire to wrap my mind around permanent sobriety where it not only feels desirable, but attainable. I can honestly say that has never been the case before.

On the flipside of your point above though, I wonder what the purpose of the aversion techniques are if one, in fact, has a Big Plan to never drink again. It seems to contradictory. Wouldn't that be like me buying sunblock for a vacation to Hawaii that I have confirmed I am not ever going to go on? (no idea how that example popped up, FYI!)

I've think I may try the bottle of vodka idea though with my husband and see how that goes. I thought about that idea some more last night and I think my initial negative reaction stemmed from that going against pretty much everything I had been taught in rehabs, etc. But in thinking it over some more, I think there is definitely something to my constant failure to stay away fron drinking after months of not drinking and my lack of exposure to the alcohol or any familiar scenarios with how I drank. Thanks for that idea!

freethinking

I'd like to 2nd that. This thread has been more helpful than I can ever express in words. I'm glad you're here.

Terminally Unique

Just a note for others, since you bring up a good point for discussion. It is tempting to go ahead and make a Big Plan before one has a grasp on AVRT, so I personally do not recommend doing so before reading the entire book and thinking about what you've read.

That said, a few false starts, though undesirable, will force you to understand the nature of your own Beast, if you reflect, as Stayinfree did. Your Beast can be very cunning, in that it will conceal its own existence from you, but eventually you will have its number. Once you do, it won't be able to hide anymore. AVRT builds on itself, and gets easier and easier, until eventually it is second nature, almost as if running in the background on its own like anti-virus software.

The first time I read the book, I missed a whole lot of information. I remember a part in there somewhere that says that Beasts can read, too, and that was probably accurate. My own AV was probably preventing me from seeing some things initially. I found that there are a lot of gems in that book that were not apparent the first time around, and I may go back and re-read it again.

Congratulations on your Big Plan, though. Welcome to reality. :-)