Terminally Unique

A very good start, April.

The Addictive Voice will try to tell you that your own better judgment — that for you, self-intoxication is morally wrong — is a symptom of denial, that drinking cannot possibly be wrong. In RR, that inversion is called original denial, and all other inversions follow from it.

onlythetruth

Even though I didn't use AVRT to quit drinking, it strikes me how incredibly logical the process really is. It also strikes me that I did use the essential theory of AVRT, which is that the "alcoholic" in me, wasn't me.

The analogy I used was that I was a bus, and I'd been letting a drunk drive that bus for too damned long. I threw him (it was a him, even though I am a her) out of the seat and took over--and when tempted to drink I'd think to myself "it's that damned drunk again" and imagine myself tossing him out of the driver's seat.

FT

I like that, onlythetruth. Kind of like my analogy of the little alien controlling the human body in the "Men In Black" movie I talked about above.

FT

AprilMay1895

You guys can totally get irritated with me if this was already discussed on this thread and I haven't gotten to the last 2 parts of the book yet either, so I'm gonna be lazy and just ask. lol But is the RR concept along the lines of the Freudian Id, Ego and Super-ego concept? And addiction is a sort of imbalance of the Id and the Super-Ego? Kinda seems like our Id's overthrew our Super-Ego's? Once we go back and separate the two again and tell which one should be the dominant, there is no longer a problem. Or am I on crack(not literally, it was just the booze I swear. lol)?

wellwisher

Actually, two thoughts come to mind as I see the previous few posts. I also will preface these thoughts by stating I did not use AVRT to stop drinking.

I see a parallel between the beast and some imagery used during a group exercise used in rehab I did all those years ago. We were encouraged to "look inside" and give the disease a form. (Now I know AVRT does not buy into the disease concept, but just bear with me). There was no prodding of what that should look like; it was to be our own conceptualization. What I "saw" was a black, nebulous mass that had a life to it, and as we progressed in doing the exercise, I envisioned that mass moving from my abdomen, through my neck, through my brain and out the top of my head, and then I kicked it down the street. A very empowering thought in that I kicked the crap out of it and sent it packing by kicking it down the street. That exercise, to me, seems to capture the idea that the Beast can be killed and put out of your misery forever.

A second visualization that comes to mind that I employed was the "sleeping tiger". Basically, the tiger represents alcoholism, and once I removed myself from the obsession, the tiger becomes a sleeping tiger. It is always there, but it is silent. All I have to do is add alcohol, and the tiger stirs and comes fully awake; ready to take over my life. That visual embraces the disease model of alcoholism.

When I look at those two similar, yet very different thought processes, side by side, I can begin to see the difference between the disease model of alcoholism and its treatment versus the AVRT method in obtaining abstinence (haha - I'm stumbling over my words for fear of using the wrong terminology when I speak of AVRT).

Just my thoughts.

FT

Super-ego, ego, pain body, me versus I, etc., all play on the same themes.

I think you go with what works for you. AVRT seems to have put it all in a context that reduces some of the complexity and makes it easier to wrap my head around.

I still love Tolle, though.

FT

Terminally Unique

April, the standard approach of waiting for something to be done for you is not going to work. AVRT is self-recovery, and while I am glad to discuss it in order to help others with the nuances, you must remember that you are ultimately on your own. The battle will be waged in your own mind, not anyone else's mind, so to stay on track, it helps to imagine that you are the first person in the history of mankind to ever quit a substance addiction, without any available support.

My initial reaction is to say no, since AVRT is not based on any existing psychological theory, but rather on the reality of independent recovery. Although he is undoubtedly familiar with existing psychological theories, since he is a trained and licensed clinical social worker, Trimpey did not learn AVRT from a book, but rather from observing how people naturally recover on their own.

However, I can see how you might see some parallels, in that the Id, like your Beast, is driven by pleasure, and wants whatever feels good at the time, with no consideration for the reality of the situation. Like the Ego, your Addictive Voice serves the purpose of interpreting reality in order to satisfy the Id. The Super-ego is your moral conscience, and in as far as your moral conscience can crush the Id, this would be correlate with AVRT-based recovery.

That said, while I myself also indulge in this sort of thing, AVRT is powerfully simple, and trying to unravel the mystery of how it works before you quit will play right into your AV, which will throw everything but the kitchen sink at you in order to avoid the bullet of abstinence.

Terminally Unique

You have to remember that Trimpey did not just pull AVRT out of a hat. He was a social worker for decades, who was not only addicted to alcohol himself, but also spent thousands of clinical contact hours interviewing seriously addicted people to ascertain how people naturally recover. He has often referred to AVRT as a phenomenological method, since it simply mirrors reality.

I have always suspected that many "old-timers" use a form of AVRT, without naming it as such or ever telling the newcomers about it. One member here on SR frequently mentions detachment when speaking of his own spiritual awakening, which is essentially what happens with AVRT. You detach from addictive desire (the Beast), so that eventually, you can honestly say that you don't have a desire to drink/use, only it does.

AprilMay1895

I just wanted to see if there's any logic behind it other than just Trimpey's observations. But I see your point, even if there were no logic behind it, it'd still be no reason to not abstain...so it's a moot point.

And as far as quitting drinking goes, that happened after Friday night, like I said it would. After that, I read the first 90 pages and said I will never drink again and I will never change my mind and then I had a very content, peaceful sober Saturday night...which is nothing that was ever a possibility before. I may have a lot of questions and curiosities but I'm no pansy. If I were still chugging back some beers while asking questions though, I could understand the frustration.

Terminally Unique

There are some similarities in methodology. Anyone who has ever attended a recovery group meeting has undoubtedly heard people speak of their disease as if it had a mind of its own, as in "my disease is trying to kill me." They are, in effect, objectifying their addiction, which is what one does with AVRT. Indeed, many who reject the disease concept in favor of psychological theories of addiction also reject AVRT on account of this similarity.

This is accurate. The Beast will eventually weaken from starvation (abstinence), but it is still there. If you feed it, even years later, it will certainly come back to life, as if rising from the ashes.

Terminally Unique

For those of you with an interest in psychology, there is a book that, while independent of AVRT, nevertheless correlates with the AVRT paradigm, almost with uncanny precision.

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes

Terminally Unique

Time to dial it up a notch, April.

• How wrong is it for you to drink?
  
  
• On a scale of one to ten, with ten being the most extremely wrong, where does drinking, in and of itself, fall?
  
  
• Is there any act that is more wrong for you than drinking?

Before you answer, consider that you cannot predict with certainty before you start drinking what you will do once you are under the influence, and that you have probably done things while UTI which you still regret, and which you would never do while sober.

If you can convince yourself that for you, drinking, in and of itself, since it effectively obliterates your moral conscience — your sense of right and wrong — is the most immoral act of all, more wrong than anything else, you are home free. Your conscience will then kick in almost automatically to identify the Addictive Voice when it pops up, without any effort on your part.

AprilMay1895

Well...I just read this part in the crash course but I'll answer it as if I didn't...

1.) How wrong is it for me to drink? Kinda wrong, it's not healthy, it makes me disconnect from people and live in misery, makes me a conflicted person living in turmoil.

2.) 1-10 I'd honestly say an 8.

3.) Any act more morally wrong than drinking? Yes, murder, rape, theft, adultery, and on and on.

However, knowing that alcohol deletes your morals, as long as I'm drinking all of the above are possible. it's hard for me to see this because I've kept my drinking self-contained in a manner that makes me believe I am no threat to others, just myself. BUT when I look at my full drinking career, I am lucky I did not manage all of the above. Could I murder someone while drunk? Drunk driving, yes. Also, I did a large amount of property damage to an ex's vehicle once, this was not something I'd ever consider in the slightest when sober and I could've ended up in jail. Still I think about my latest drinking phase of sitting on my couch in front of my tv and ask myself if I'm hurting anyone else and I'm not. Doesn't mean I want to drink again, it's just hard for me to catch the moral angle as concerned to other people. It's morally wrong to do to myself, I guess I don't see myself as a moral threat to others though...although I was a super pissed off texter. lol

I'm not trying to fight the idea either. If someone can point out to me how it would be morally wrong for me to drink for how it effects other people, I'd certainly be open to a stronger defense against the beast.

Terminally Unique

Then why not a 10?

The grand delusion of all addicted people is that they are only hurting themselves, which is always categorically false.

Do you have anyone who depends on you? Kids? If not, do you have a cat or a dog? If you keep on drinking and aren't able to provide for them someday as a result, that wouldn't be right, would it?

Do you have parents or siblings? How might they be affected by your shortened life-span from drinking, and the fact that you have effectively sealed yourself in your home in order to feed your addiction?

AprilMay1895

No kids, no roommates, no cat, no dog, no friends, no significant other...ahhhh what a lovely life I built for myself. lol I do have one fish though. I contemplated putting him on my list of harms done to others in AA, but then thought if he was mad he would've just died by now. lol

I do however have the most concerned parents known to man. So much so that they purchased a house I could rent from them so I didn't have to keep living it ****** apartments...I pay my own rent, but the booze took a good $300 a month away that I could've used on nicer places. Although my parents don't know of my addiction to drinking, they have indirectly been affected. I know there's no factual evidence to support this, but I'm pretty sure I would've done better in college, graduated college sooner, be married, possibly have kids and just not be as much of a worry and responsibility to them. My "life progression" since college has slowed to a halt. My parents, though I'm not sure they know why, have probably noticed this halt.

Then my sibling, an older brother, probably not affected. We never really talk to each other because we're both introverts. lol

So yes, morally it's not fair to my parents because they're doing and have done everything they can to help me make it in life and I've been doing nothing to help me make it in life...I've been working against their efforts really. They're willing to pay for my college, help me live in a nice home, give me emotional support, help me when I need it financially and I wasn't even willing to give up the one thing that would lessen my need for all of that help in the first place. Yikes, I do qualify as a drunk ******* after all.

Terminally Unique

That's good, April. You recognize what your Beast really is, a ruthless parasite that will feed not only on you, but on your parents as well. It will destroy your life, and then when there is nothing left, it will go on to destroy theirs.

You view your parents as caring and concerned, but how does your Beast view your parents? I bet it views them as suckers to be taken advantage of. Spend some time shifting back and forth, looking at those you love from your eyes, and from the eyes of your Beast.

Your parents tried to protect you from the dangers of this world. Now it is time for you to protect them from the Trojan Beast that has invaded their family and threatens to destroy it. Remember, the day will come when you may have to provide for them, just as they did for you.

Terminally Unique

aNewDawn just posted this in another thread, but I am re-posting here since it illustrates a common scenario.

Is it you envying them, or IT (your Beast) envying them? I think you know the answer.

Who cares what your Beast thinks of others, though? Let it squirm. You don't envy anyone, because if you made a Big Plan, you obviously don't want to drink. If you did, you wouldn't have made a Big Plan. :-)

Never let the Beast take control of the first person pronoun, "I" — always keep it separate, an IT.

soberlicious

Like some of the others, I did not formally following AVRT to quit. but when I read about it about a year after I had quit, I recognized it as very similar to what I had done. Actually what I had done on my own, but while in treatment, and that was to simply say "I'm never drinking again". I meant it and even though I got out and did a specified number of group meetings in a specified number of days, I told them all I was never drinking again. LOL that went over like a lead balloon, but no matter because I knew it inside and I just went with that. but I digress... yes, the imagery...

I use imagery for the beast. I can "see" her. She is a pathetic mess...mascara down her face. She is either angry or sobbing. She cannot make a decision, cannot form relationships, she's weak, she's promiscuous, she's manipulative, she lies, she's toxic. She cares for no one...even though she says she does. She thinks she has others fooled, but they only pity her.
She is everything I will never be.

so true TU. I cannot believe how many meds I was on while drinking. They just kept giving me more and different ones because "nothing was working". I also used benzos while drinking, which eventually led literally to the end. While in treatment, I used every PRN benzo they allotted me in addition to the scheduled ones.. Telling them I was "anxious", "struggling"...I wasn't at all I just wanted a little buzz. I recognized my AV then, and I decided I would not take those pills anymore.

I absolutely agree. I have heard too many of them speak and I hear it.

YAY on you!!

Terminally Unique

Just want to say that I'm more or less pleased with the way this thread has turned out, and that it hasn't devolved into an orgy of ********** HUUUGGGSSS }}}}} like many other threads. :-)

If the cut-off count from other threads is any indication, I reckon we'll be moving on to "Part 2" soon...

kanamit

I'm relatively new to AVRT and Terminally Unique has been most hopeful. I wonder if I might post a few of my own questions before we hit the limit:

1. I am finding myself envying those who have more time under their built. I know you'd say right away this is Beat activity. However, the reason is because my body hasn't fully reset itself from years of alcohol. Is that still Beast activity?
2. I find occasional feelings come on: anxiety, sadness, indecision from mind racing; is this withdrawal or Beast activity? Can the Beast really make you feel those things?
3. Does likening drinking to the ultimate immoral act help? I still think deep down the Beast has a bit of a hold on me because I don't quite fully view drinking in the light I should. One previous poster mentioned it to sleeping with her ex-husband. I think of some of the scenes in London I saw of the riots that made me feel sick…yet the idea of drinking doesn't do that. right now it's more of something i no longer do. Should it?
4. Is it normal to normal to feel a bit shaky as you learn the technique? My Beast is saying to me, "You thought this AVRT thing was your ticket out of here but when you read this thread they know a lot more about it than you. Good luck. You're going to need it,=."

Thanks everyone, I have learned so much from this thread and look forward to part two.