Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion-Part 1
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I'll share something my own AV has thrown at me so that others don't fall into it. I wrote in the post above about "false starts" with regard to the Big Plan, which many people's Beasts will instantly seize upon when they read it. My own AV has previously told me "Well, you seem to have the hang of this AVRT stuff, you can quit any time you want now. Why not drink all you want during vacation? When your vacation is over, you can just make a new Big Plan."
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
I'll share something my own AV has thrown at me so that others don't fall into it. I wrote in the post above about "false starts" with regard to the Big Plan, which many people's Beasts will instantly seize upon when they read it. My own AV has previously told me "Well, you seem to have the hang of this AVRT stuff, you can quit any time you want now. Why not drink all you want during vacation? When your vacation is over, you can just make a new Big Plan."
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
The good thing about Allen Carr's book is that stripped a lot of the Desire away from drinking but there's still remnants where it will push the drunken afterglow into my consciousness and thoughts of whiskey and oblivion.
I'm still reading Rational Recovery when I can. My attention span is shot to **** and I'm still just opening it and reading it as if it were a book of Parables.
I like the approach of annoying Frank. It's fantastic. I'll never drink again but Frank wants to continue on forever basking in oblivion.
As for AVRT and the like, I just see it as the process of jumping off a bus that has a timebomb on it and NOT getting back on the bus no matter how much the driver says it'll be a cool and relaxing ride.
BEAST : Yeah the bus has a bomb on it, but you're gonna die anyway.
ME : Why would I want to die in such a ******** way? Besides you're drunk and behind the wheel.
BEAST : So? I'm a maverick. A wildcard. I do things differently. Unlike everyone else out there. They are all sheep. They do the same thing everyday.
ME : And you just want to drink. And drink. And drink. You're even worse!
BEAST : GET OFF DA BUS.
**** the ride.
I take great inspiration from the late Bill Hicks who was also a teetotaler. I'm in good company.
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You have a good point, let me think....
But realistically, could you clarify how this would ever be an issue? In your example, it is highly unlikely a daily drinker would ever say "I was abstinent last night for 8 hours while i slept". In what scenario would it be an issue if someone claimed sobriety when they had not drank but did not have a "sober" mental construct?
To go back to the quote above, I think this guy is a good example of someone who has a "mental construct" of sobriety. (Let's pretend that's a useful term just for a moment.) No one is forcing him to be abstinent, he just is. I expect he'll succeed. If he picks up again, it will be a change in mental construct, he's just changed his mind, and I don't know if I'd even term it a relapse unless he longs to quit again and can't.
That's where I hadn't considered the idea of addiction as being relevant to the desire to quit. I'd always considered chronic alcohol and drug abusers to be addicts. So, if they really don't care about quitting, then they aren't addicted? That's a real bone of contention, because a third party would have a hard time viewing that way, especially if said third party wanted the person to quit.
So I guess the point is that recovery is a "first person" concept (or mental construct) first and foremost. The non-alcoholic alcohol drinker is just somebody that drinks but has no plans to quit. (Some may consider that an oxymoron.) Their level of drinking may be considered by some to be excessive whether or not it really is, and to others just their preference level. The non-alcoholic drinker is not "abstinent" in any sense of the word between drinks, because abstinent implies intent.
So, I suppose there lies my answer to the above question, "In what scenario would it be an issue if someone claimed sobriety when they had not drank but did not have a "sober" mental construct?" I think it only becomes an issue when the question of one's "sobriety" is raised, often in a defensive posture. You'll sometimes hear this bantered about in arguments about who is a "real addict" and who is not. I am not sure in what club it became necessary to define who is a real addict or not, but personally I don't care for the label in any sense of the word.
For me, I don't much care what anyone thinks about my being a non-drinker and a non-opiate-user, except that maybe it becomes one of my "credentials" professionally. Of course, I have not put it on my CV. Ha!
Well enough. Anyone who has read me on the substance abuse forum knows I talk too much, and here I've done it again. I didn't even know the topic of AVRT was here until a few weeks ago, or I'd have been here sooner.
FT
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Regarding the "ABC stuff," that can actually feed into the AV if you are not careful, but I don't want to derail this thread, so PM me if interested in details. Essentially, though, ask yourself who is doing the ABC's (you or your Beast).
On the flipside of your point above though, I wonder what the purpose of the aversion techniques are if one, in fact, has a Big Plan to never drink again. It seems to contradictory. Wouldn't that be like me buying sunblock for a vacation to Hawaii that I have confirmed I am not ever going to go on?
Originally Posted by freethinking
Whenever I have quit drinking in the past, I have had no urges whatsoever for several months and then it seems like BAM, I am at the liquor store and drunk out of nowhere. When I look back, it's hard to see how it happened...
That would work for now if you are afraid, or you could fill a vodka bottle with water. It looks almost identical to the real thing, so it should be enough to get your Beast stirring.
Here's an interesting question.
Is it better to tackle all addictive behavior at once or focus on one entirely? I say this as I have abnormal eating habits and I had the problem with the alcohol. I think if I focused on both at the same time my attention would have been split and I wouldn't have found tackling the alcohol addiction as easy it has been.
Is it better to tackle all addictive behavior at once or focus on one entirely? I say this as I have abnormal eating habits and I had the problem with the alcohol. I think if I focused on both at the same time my attention would have been split and I wouldn't have found tackling the alcohol addiction as easy it has been.
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Elvis,
I have not used AVRT with anything except substance addiction, so I can't comment on eating, although they do have an older book on the subject. I did tackle smoking at the same time as drinking though, and I abstain from all mood altering substances, since they all feed the Beast, which only wants synthetic pleasure. Strictly speaking, I am fairly certain that since AVRT refers to drinking and using almost synonymously, that within the AVRT paradigm, there is no difference between alcohol and other drugs.
I did make an exception in my Big Plan for caffeine, though. :-)
I have not used AVRT with anything except substance addiction, so I can't comment on eating, although they do have an older book on the subject. I did tackle smoking at the same time as drinking though, and I abstain from all mood altering substances, since they all feed the Beast, which only wants synthetic pleasure. Strictly speaking, I am fairly certain that since AVRT refers to drinking and using almost synonymously, that within the AVRT paradigm, there is no difference between alcohol and other drugs.
I did make an exception in my Big Plan for caffeine, though. :-)
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Get some sleep, have some coffee, and read it. It will only take you a couple of hours.
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I'd always considered chronic alcohol and drug abusers to be addicts. So, if they really don't care about quitting, then they aren't addicted? That's a real bone of contention, because a third party would have a hard time viewing that way, especially if said third party wanted the person to quit.
BTW, I hope I haven't offended here by going off on my tangent. I am not disputing AVRT by any means....but I'd be lying if I said I was employing it by the book in any way.
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There is a guy that comes on the substance abuse forum once in awhile that just upsets the hell out of everybody...He has a great attitude about quitting opiates -- he has beat it, he feels good about it, and he has moved on with his life... He doesn't have an alcohol problem, and so drinks once in awhile with his buddies, which also drives a lot of the other posters nuts.
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My own AV has previously told me "Well, you seem to have the hang of this AVRT stuff, you can quit any time you want now. Why not drink all you want during vacation? When your vacation is over, you can just make a new Big Plan."
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
Sneaky, and pure AV, so watch out for that. :-)
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I will caution you, though, that the Beast is ruthless in its desire to survive, and will chew up any psychological, spiritual, or medical theory, twist it around, incorporate it into your AV, and then spit it back out at you in order to justify more drinking or using. If your fusion method works, then all the better, but if two months from now, you feel differently, you know where to find the right information on AVRT.
You may, however, want to read the references to "Mr. Beast, Esq." on pages 172, 174, and 214 of "RR: TNC," since they address the reluctance to make a Big Plan. I can also send you additional clarification on how REBT interacts with AVRT if you are interested; just PM me.
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Beast Bait...
I know many people go non-linear upon reading this, but there is a purpose to it, so bear with me. A lot of people have difficulty spotting their AV, and if you have a moving target, it is easier to spot. Think about the following statement, which usually gets the Beast stirring in no time:
There are two ways of looking at things, though; through your eyes, and through the eyes of your Beast. If you spend some time shifting back and forth between the two, you should be able to more easily recognize Beastly thoughts.
What do YOU think about this statement?
What does IT (your Beast) think about this statement?
Personal problems don't cause addiction; addiction causes personal problems.
Most people will hear their AV rail back at them saying "that's not true! that can't be be true! I drank/used for a number of reasons, and my [insert laundry list of woes] caused my addiction..."There are two ways of looking at things, though; through your eyes, and through the eyes of your Beast. If you spend some time shifting back and forth between the two, you should be able to more easily recognize Beastly thoughts.
What do YOU think about this statement?
What does IT (your Beast) think about this statement?
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I read Eckhart Tolle a few years ago and used his philosophy to assist me in identifying and self treating my own addiction. I knew nothing of AVRT at that time, and I didn't know of it when I quit opiates in December 2010. Neither did I know anything of AVRT when I quit drinking alcohol over 20 years ago. But being new to the concepts you talk about that AVRT brings to the table, I realize I was doing much the same thing. I just called it something different.
In my own self described "treatment", I called the Addict Voice my "addict brain".
The phrase above reminds me of the age old puzzle, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Perhaps another poor analogy, but my thinking starts going in loops when I think about whether personal problems cause addiction or whether addiction causes personal problems, because the latter would imply the presence of something perhaps dormant in everyone, but which only becomes active in some. Maybe similar to "the pain body" that Tolle speaks of.
I don't want to pull other posters off track here, though. AVRT is such a sensible and no-frills concept, and I subscribe to the belief that most human beings are capable of self-determination and self-control that supersedes any notion of "powerlessness". I also do not subscribe to the notion of alcoholism or drug addiction as a disease, except that those problems to cause disease in many people -- both physical and mental.
Just because the DSM-V has decided that those conditions constitute disease does not make it so, particularly when you recognize that those designations are mainly applicable to reimbursement systems in our medical care industry (note I don't call it a medical care "system"). The brands and labels it supplies do nothing more than categorize human beings for the purpose of furthering the profit margin of the HMO's in my opinion.
Sorry to get all political on ya.
FT
In my own self described "treatment", I called the Addict Voice my "addict brain".
The phrase above reminds me of the age old puzzle, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Perhaps another poor analogy, but my thinking starts going in loops when I think about whether personal problems cause addiction or whether addiction causes personal problems, because the latter would imply the presence of something perhaps dormant in everyone, but which only becomes active in some. Maybe similar to "the pain body" that Tolle speaks of.
I don't want to pull other posters off track here, though. AVRT is such a sensible and no-frills concept, and I subscribe to the belief that most human beings are capable of self-determination and self-control that supersedes any notion of "powerlessness". I also do not subscribe to the notion of alcoholism or drug addiction as a disease, except that those problems to cause disease in many people -- both physical and mental.
Just because the DSM-V has decided that those conditions constitute disease does not make it so, particularly when you recognize that those designations are mainly applicable to reimbursement systems in our medical care industry (note I don't call it a medical care "system"). The brands and labels it supplies do nothing more than categorize human beings for the purpose of furthering the profit margin of the HMO's in my opinion.
Sorry to get all political on ya.
FT
Actually, I don't think the DSM-V calls labels alcoholism as a disease, does it? I think it is termed something else...alcohol abuse or dependence I think.
But yeah, I hear you on the "industry" bit.
(Really like Tolle too)
But yeah, I hear you on the "industry" bit.
(Really like Tolle too)
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Dissociate...you know, I do that all the time with people in my life...I decide they're no longer good for me and I just cut them off. Is that what people do with "the beast" then? Recognize it, tell it to eff off because it's not helping you and then go on with life?
My plan is to drink the last of my beer I have left in my fridge tonight as my farewell to booze, then read the book tomorrow and make my commitment to no longer drinking. I know this sounds incredibly shady because it starts with "my plan is to drink the last of my beer". lol But this has been my plan for the last couple days, after I get a day to study the method, then I have to start applying it. Maybe it still sounds shady. Oh gosh, well I'm letting the beast live for one more night is what I'm saying it and then breaking up with it tomorrow. Now it sounds like I'm a guy breaking up with a bad girlfriend but sleeping with her one more time the night before. Ok, I better stop typing(and no, I haven't started drinking the beer yet). lol
My plan is to drink the last of my beer I have left in my fridge tonight as my farewell to booze, then read the book tomorrow and make my commitment to no longer drinking. I know this sounds incredibly shady because it starts with "my plan is to drink the last of my beer". lol But this has been my plan for the last couple days, after I get a day to study the method, then I have to start applying it. Maybe it still sounds shady. Oh gosh, well I'm letting the beast live for one more night is what I'm saying it and then breaking up with it tomorrow. Now it sounds like I'm a guy breaking up with a bad girlfriend but sleeping with her one more time the night before. Ok, I better stop typing(and no, I haven't started drinking the beer yet). lol
That's where I hadn't considered the idea of addiction as being relevant to the desire to quit. I'd always considered chronic alcohol and drug abusers to be addicts. So, if they really don't care about quitting, then they aren't addicted? That's a real bone of contention, because a third party would have a hard time viewing that way, especially if said third party wanted the person to quit.
So I guess the point is that recovery is a "first person" concept (or mental construct) first and foremost. The non-alcoholic alcohol drinker is just somebody that drinks but has no plans to quit. (Some may consider that an oxymoron.) Their level of drinking may be considered by some to be excessive whether or not it really is, and to others just their preference level. The non-alcoholic drinker is not "abstinent" in any sense of the word between drinks, because abstinent implies intent.
FT
I'm a little confused by your 2nd paragraph here....to be abstinent means to have abstained (from anything), period....however what we were discussing was use of the term "sober".
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