dustyfox

I did enjoy drinking even only less than 3 weeks ago - i could probably write poetry about the seductive feeling of succumbing to the soft oblivion of intoxication, and looking forward to it day after day.
But I did not enjoy waking from that - to the heart pounding reality that the seduction was more of a rape - stealing my life, my joy, my happiness.
Like someone in an abusive relationship who cant see it, it took my until now, to just end it.

Steely

I think when you say the reason you drink is because you want to experience the pleasure of alcohol over and over again, you are talking through your hat. I think there's more to it than that Aellyce.

Aellyce why you think you bs so much? Not just about time sober, but entire fantasias? This is the deeper stuff I think.

Fusion

Aellyce, I posted in the Secular thread.

Aellyce

Thanks, dustyfox. I really appreciate your message, and I agree. You are new and inspired to respond to me, to engage with me, I appreciate it a lot right now. The usual pattern is intense interest, a gradual decline over time, then nothing. Of course, I don't blame anyone losing interest in me, even the "me" I kinda try to mask (COVID or not).

It is the weirdest (superficially) element of addiction that I experience all of what you've just said, and this state... it's not even pleasure really. More just a whatever state, a state of superficially perceived okay, nothing special. Is this what we crave, when those crazy cravings hit? Nothing special, nothing particularly interesting, a little baseline ability to enjoy things like music and stories? Why is the ability to do the same lost sober, so that we seek this not even overtly interesting state, again and again? Of course I know that as well, I know about anhedonia. Wish I could somehow overcome that, so that this chemically-enhanced stupidity would not be alluring anymore.

I think it would be best for me to stop drinking (haha, really?), go to some kind of rehab program, and try various treatments for my depression, even if my mood feels stable when I get a few days or weeks sober. I also have a sort of inverse seasonal affective disorder and this time of year is always the worst. Usually gets better from early June, but this tends to be my lowest. Not blaming the seasons, but it's a pattern for me.

dustyfox

I am new, I don't 'know' anyone here at all. I hear you, like I hear others, and I recognise things that I have felt, or thought, or believed. And I respond because I find it difficult to hear another's pain and ignore it. My advice or thoughts may not help you, or resonate with you. Sometimes knowing someone is hearing you is of some comfort. Though I don't think you seek comfort - you seek answers and a way out.

dwtbd

Intoxication will always be alluring, but that isn't necessarily an impediment to quitting.
Drink or don't drink, the choice is yours , always is.
as always , rootin for ya

FiveTries

I don't crave the 'whatever state', when cravings hit. I crave the pleasurable state. The uninteresting piece just comes along with it. When I am sober I can't remember the maintenance piece of drinking very well. I can deeply remember the pleasure.

I want to change how I feel. The truth is I don't like reality much and I want to alter it. I can identify with an enhanced ability to connect to music while intoxicated - but only my perception is changing. From reality to altered. When I am sober and want that experience again, I have to go drink to get it. There isn't much of a choice.

Is uninteresting reality better than uninteresting drunk?

Dee74

I think you have a lot invested in the life you have now...including the drinking.
people can hang onto bad investments.

Not drinking - always being you..no escape - is scary.

You wonder if you’ll be vulnerable, you worry if the sober life will be worse than the drunk one...you worry that, somehow, your mojo - personal, professional creative - is tied to your drinking and you’ll lose that.

You worry that every bad thing people have said about you - right back to childhood - might be true.

You can probably fill in many other examples of the fear recovery fills you with.

We can’t give you reasons to quit.
You need to find your reasons.

They’re there.

I don’t believe you’re totally subsumed by your addiction.

Might seem that way while you’re drinking but the very reason why it’s so hard to quit and stay quit is the internal battle between the real us and the corrupted version.

Two wolves. Feed the one you want to win.

It’s a leap of faith. A leap into the inky blackness with no net.

But you have the testimonies of those of us who done it, and the help and support of all of us here.

You’re not the first alcoholic to lie and not the last.
My concern is the extent to which you’re lying to yourself.

I hope you find whatever you need to find to take the leap, and mean it, Aellyce.
You deserve better and I hope you start giving yourself that

D

GerandTwine

It is absolutely better. To your sensual equilibrium, quitting is like leaving the outdoors under a blazing noonday sun and entering a world famous museum that is kept in low light to protect the artifacts. At first you see virtually nothing and might even bump into a display case. But as time passes, you are able to begin to see ... what? The vast complexities, beauties, conflicts, discoveries, on and on,... of human reality. It is SO MUCH MORE than your pupils constricting to pinpoints to protect your vision outside or your brain suffering chemically enhanced stupidity of drunken Beastly commingling.

Instead it is you discovering the VAST complexity of reality and existence itself. And that the more you know, the more you know you don’t know. To me that is an awesome conclusion that feeds me to want to know even more.

Our society encourages the shallowness of personality that goes along with drunkenness, couch potatoness, and vicariousness. Nobody has to remain in that sort of “safe” pleasure-seeking.

You can begin to realize that where you are now, addicted to alcohol, can actually be a GIFT IN DISGUISE, to help you escape that mundaneness of shallowness of personality that our society glamorizes to keep as many of us in line as possible.

Break free. You WILL be able to get chills again when you hear your favorite rock music of the past. And it will have nothing to do with getting drunk or even memories of having been drunk. That’s what’s happened with me.

Steely

Maybe I'm too blunt sometimes Aellyce. Idk. Could be an Aussie thing.

Was wondering if this is the first time since you've been here that you've tried to be honest? A good thing. But sorry if I was too blunt. This would not be easy. Cudos.

We've all bs'd sometimes Aellyce and certainly no worse than some of the bs I've come up with throughout my career.

I still think rehab would be a good idea. A good psychologist.

Do you live alone Aellyce? Do you have friends, support in the real world?

It's obvious you are really bright Aellyce, but hurting it seems to me. I know the feeling, but it's only been in stopping drinking that I have found trust in the real me.

What makes us interesting here I think is the way in which we get sober. It's a massive topic and will hold everyone's interest indefinitely. The truth is always interesting.

Steely

*kudos*

The mundane struggle wins the Nobel Prize for Literature.

dwtbd

A medically supervised detox coupled with ameliorated um..uncomfortableness may /can be a benefit and positive outcome , but beyond those , what do you expect to gain or find that could be more significant than a personal commitment to abstinence? Any finding or gain would ultimately contain that operative commitment, no ?

ScottFromWI

There are definitely practical solutions. Detox/rehab is certainly a practical way to completely remove your ability to even obtain alcohol in the first place. So while it may seem like a farfetched option, it is a very real and very practical one.

Another might be for you to join an in-person recovery community. I do understand that you've done lot of thinking regarding AVRT and other more self-directed methods, but maybe that's really not the one for you. It doesn't seem to be working very well even though you seem to fully understand the concept of the AV, and you are indeed self-aware of what is happening - would you agree?

Another thing you may want to consider is to limit the time you have to spend on the "thinking" part of all of this. It's easy to get caught up in endless wormhole/circular conversations here on SR about the merits a particular method of recovery, or a particular idea. One very practical way to "stop thinking and start doing" is to literally map out your day, hour by hour. Give yourself X amount of time to spend on the "thinking side of things" and then dedicate other times of the day to "doing" types of activities.

But yes, as many others have eluded to - largely the choice has to be made by you.

Steely

I don't go to AA but maybe the book, "Into Action"? It's good.

Edit: I was thinking of another AA book Aellyce, can't remember its name. Given to me by nurse in rehab. "Into Action" is a chapter in the big book.

Aellyce

Hi everyone,

I don't want to continue this discussion long but do want to say Thank You directly for all the posts and advice yesterday. I did stop drinking while the convo here was still going, didn't sleep well of course, but I'm feeling okay today. I never drink for long periods at a time, not even sure how people go on benders that last for days or weeks in a row... I always lose my interest after about a day, when I reach that dull, depressed state I wrote about earlier. It is not hard to stop then, and for days or even a couple weeks, and I always feel much better very quickly, my problem is not staying stopped. So I agree with those of you who suggested going to rehab may not resolve anything more, especially because I doubt I would learn anything new there. Could be a few weeks of forced abstinence, but then the same challenge re-starts and I still need to maintain. I also don't think I need a psychologist or therapy - did that in the past, there is not much to be explored there that I haven't done already a million times and it didn't help the alcohol addiction at all. I think I thought about the rehab yesterday because I was desperate, but I believe it would be just another distraction for me, delaying really focusing on working on maintaining my sobriety. Rehab can be great to snap someone out of an ongoing downward spiral, to aid detox or a very bad mental state medically, and to teach skills to people, but I don't need any of those - I think the only culprit here is really what we have been discussing all along, lack of commitment or not sufficient. I also got upset before when some people here criticized that, because they of course cut into the core of my problem that I'm avoiding. Everything else is truly just ways to evade that for me. I don't even feel depressed or down now, it's always while I'm drinking or hangover, but recover fast. So trying to focus on "problems" that do not exist anywhere outside of intoxicated/hangover states would definitely be more useless distractions.

Yesterday was not the first time I was honest about all this, it was just the exact repetition of what happened already twice this year, and it's not even worth discussing further because we had done that before. It's the same thing: I'm not really a liar outside of things related to my drinking, don't think I need some psychological deep dive to figure out anything, because it's is a plain, simple addiction. Won't go away unless I stop the. behavior for good, there isn't some kind of dark and mysterious trauma, self-esteem issue or other secrets at all, just this alcohol addiction. I did very well last fall/winter, those three months were real. And what did I do differently then? Exactly what Scott said: I had strong structure in my days, went to other recovery communities that I used as intended, not as a social/discussion venue, never lied there. I was also working, and while didn't like that job much and was winding it down, it gave me a lot to do. I think I'll get back to working again, occasional traveling is great, but I don't need more of this "doing nothing", every day the same... I'm also using my money, but will never get back to business the way I want if this drinking continues, even if I drink less frequently right now. I think what would help is being busy with worthwhile things and having a productive routine, not more "treatment" and talking about addiction non-stop. There is definitely a need to have more real social life, and no reason for me now to refrain from it longer given where I live, I can do anything here but not as long as I keep repeating more of the same cycle. I think the reason behind repeatedly not being honest here on SR is simply because I wanted to be part of the community but also keep my secret drinking, and I don't even exercise basic respect for those that spend a lot of time and energy talking to me, just want to have it all... but in the end none of it works well.

So Scott's advice resonates with me the most. Not even sure I need a recovery community per se, I tend to overdo that as well. Perhaps more just a normal community, where I talk about and do forward-looking, productive and also fun things. REAL LIFE. I actually relate to the ideas now that, for some people, clinging to recovery groups can be counterproductive - I lose track of their real purpose fast, and obviously don't get any more or different motivation from external sources to resolve my drinking issue and it's been ~the same for many years, except those three months last year. I like the idea to put conscious limits (i.e. time) to everything, especially circular thinking and discussion that is not useful for me. I think what I am saying today is the most honest it can get, the helplessness that came out of me yesterday was not genuine at all, just my AV's whining... I don't recognize that as 'me' at all, all the stupid and immature things I do while drunk are so alien to me, don't relate to it sober at all. Like starting a thread in seemingly interesting but disingenuous way, getting suspicious, then admitting drinking, then a round of discussion what to do next... but I need to really implement the "doing next" part and stick with it. It's also totally misleading because the title and beginning of the thread pulls people in, then it's just the same mess.

In any case, like we always say, recovering requires action, and of course no action when it comes to drinking. Need to do things differently in a sustained manner for any change to occur. Everything else is distraction really, for me at this point at least.

GerandTwine

So, why not start talking as if it is stopped if that’s what you want. Or, have you tipped a few already today. You clearly have no firewall between you and drinking. You know AVRT is a perfect firewall.

You’ve known about AVRT for years, about twenty posts including AVRT before 2018. Although back then you said you had a “version” of AVRT; and then you said you were “confused” about AVRT.

Well, unless you were constantly drinking when talking about AVRT in the last six months, you can decide right now, if you’re not drinking now, that it’s finally over, and cement it in place over the next several days.

If you decide “I will never drink again.” you can put your confidence of success with this plan at 100% purely arbitrarily. This is something I rarely mention about AVRT. ARBITRARILY making your confidence that your Big Plan WILL succeed at 100%. The only reason this works is because putting alcohol down your throat takes up SO, SO much deliberate voluntary thought, planning, muscle activity, and finally deciding “Yes, this type of flavored ethanol is what I’m about to swallow.” And this 100% confidence works because you will be using AVRT to separate yourself from your AV by recognizing that ANY DOUBT about that 100% perfect level IS your AV.

You don’t even have to get rid of the alcohol in your home. I’ve known people who leave a can or bottle somewhere to taunt the AV (and have something available for others). Your parents raised you to thrive after their deaths. not wallow.

Quote:

I like the idea to put conscious limits (i.e. time) to everything, especially circular thinking and discussion that is not useful for me. I think what I am saying today is the most honest it can get,

Addictive drinking is one of the most circular and energy exhaustive behaviors imaginable. The Big Plan is what uses your conscious capacity to time limit that circular appetite cycle down to zero amount of time. That’s really the ONLY way to get past recovery that I know of.

Dee74

I wish you well with whatever real decisive action you decide to take to beat this, Aellyce.
I have no doubt you can beat it if you really apply yourself.

D

ScottFromWI

I appreciate you saying that Aellyce - and I want to make sure I clarify what I meant too. I hope my suggestion didn't come across that you should abandon this community, or AVRT, or any other. For me, this community was instrumental in my recovery from the very beginning and still is today.

What I was suggesting is that a local group might offer some higher level of accountability than a virtual one if that's what you think you need now. I also feel that you could certainly quantify/schedule your time in a more practical way which would be conducive to helping you quit and not get stuck in the loop.

One other thing that I did not add is that I was able to meet a wonderful counselor for my anxiety that was also a trained addiction counselor. She is a recovering alcoholic herself actually, but I did not know that until many months after we started talking. But the more I learned from her, the more I found that many of the same issues that manifest with anxiety ( obsession, panic loops, etc ) parallel very closely the issues with addiction. AKA - not sure if you are in therapy or not, but a counselor is a GREAT way to have conversations about these kinds of topics but keep them on track and keep you moving forward. For one thing you are paying by the hour so you want to get the best use of your time ;-) But in the end that's the whole concept of therapy in my opinion - showing people how to utilize tools they already have to conquer their problem.

Steely

I wish you the best as well, Aellyce. However, not once in your post did I see commitment, real desire for commitment, only description of how you 'bounce back', not a care in the world. Hmmmm.....?

In time the cares will come. Maybe then?

Whenever I discourse with you don't know whether I'm Arthur or Martha.

You've got this Aellyce. Have your cake and eat it too.

And now I've lost interest, as you so accurately predicted.

Dropsie

I have not lost interest in you, sorry not getting rid of me so easily.

I have said this before, but one more time cannot hurt.

For me, it was all about:

-- Accepting to my soul at a cellular level that I was addicted to alcohol
-- No one was coming to save me
-- That abstinence was not control and that no sip could pass these lips
-- I had to chose between being a good person/mom/friend/lawyer and drinking.
-- Taking a decision, past tense, that I do not drink and that I would never quit the decision
-- Everything else was execution.

Took me a while to get there, but for me, once I took the decision and committed, really committed, drinking was no longer an option and I never drank again and I will never drink again.

I read a lot, spent time here, but nothing else. No AA, Smart, AVRT, it was the Dropsie method, which draws on all of the above with a large dose of Dee and the other lovely people here.

Different strokes, but as folks say, its an inner job.

They say about a third of those with a real alcohol use disorder stop drinking -- I think its lower. But in any case, it is not easy so we should all be kinder to ourselves and prouder of ourselves.

I also find the lack of structure difficult generally as you say. But for what its worth, I don't think you have committed yet to the "never again" part, but if you do, you will do this. You have all the tools. Really.

X