Aellyce

I completely understand, Steely. If you still read this sometime, thanks for engaging with me as much as it was interesting and meaningful, I think it's healthy not to invest in anything/anyone more than what has mutual benefit, perspective and personal reward. I'm actually similar and lose interest in interacting with people about most things when I sense no progress and my efforts seem fruitless, and glad to see when others don't stay stuck in sterile investments either, even if the investment is in me. Experienced this many times on both sides, in personal life and as an entrepreneur.

Dropsie - your last post gets to the essence of it. The only slight adjustment in the focus I will make is to put it more on the implementation part. Don't think I can get more desire or commitment from thin air or something, as most of you say it's something you decide and know when you have it, or not. I won't even spend more time on thinking or on discussing that one as it's just empty words when expressed outwardly, the words don't matter, they just generate useless excitement and then nothing. I also never have so much interest in talking about intentions and feelings alone, and don't like myself much when that's all I can do. Instead, I can work on something much more tangible: the making it happen part. For that, I am 100% confident it's not more engagement in recovery programs/groups, counseling etc that can help me, that's those things have taken me only so far, including when I was in therapy, posted a lot on SR or thought about addiction/recovery all day.

A better question I can ask myself is why I would want to recover. Since I'm not at any kind of horrible, desperate "bottom" state acutely fearing for my life currently, the realistic answer is to make the improvements and work on the goals I already have more effectively, and to be generally more satisfied and happier, in better alignment with myself. I can work on all that focusing on projects, practical goals and interests and, I believe, the commitment and motivation for never drinking again will naturally come when I experience how well it all goes - a lot like during those three months, but I now have much more interesting and engaging goals, a better environment to live, so it's already an improved baseline state. I think it's futile for me to expect more commitment to arrive somehow as magic because everyone talks about it, or to feel different about it and know this time will be better - I honestly don't feel different now and don't think that will change before it's advanced much more. It won't be much different/better until quite some time spent on what I'm saying here - just doing my life as I've already planned in detail, engaging in it more fully and more actively. I think that will be a better "full time job" for me than thinking and talking about recovery nonstop, groups, discussing psychology and methods. The last few weeks/months have definitely not been a waste and running in circles as I have done many of the life changes I wanted/needed, I never just check out and become totally useless when I do my cycles or binges and abstinence...but the not drinking obviously needs more work.

So I'll do this next, including that I may discuss progress next when I have made more. Just having a few days or even a couple weeks of abstinence is nothing for me, it's easy, my usual pattern. It will be progress when I stick with it in a sustained practical sense, and that does not require much talking about it anymore - it is true I've got all the knowledge and tools already. So I'll try yet another strategy and talk when I have real news to report, not just ideas, feelings, plans and momentary excitement. I think identifying those core values is still useful, and I will only have an increased sense of competency (named as my #2) in the recovery arena when I... well, become literally more competent at it. Before that, it would just be more faking it and I'm sick of that now myself, fortunately .

Thanks everyone!

Dropsie

For me, it came down to values at the end of the day. At one point it became crystal that drinking alcohol was completely and totally inconsistent with my values given the way I sometimes behave when I drink, and that I could never drink and not risk that behaviour. Not every time, but it was and is and will always be a risk. That is why I like to say I don't kick my dog, don't hit my kids and I don't drink. For me, those are just things that I don't do. The rest is execution. Stay well friend.

GerandTwine

That’s why I brought up the ARBITRARILY set YOUR confidence level to 100% that “I will never drink again.” and simply dissociate from any and all doubt about that perfect level. You don’t have to feel the 100% or the ACE of Rational Recovery. You will feel the doubt. But you DO KNOW that you are perfectly capable of using your WILL to pledge PERMANENT ABSTINENCE.

In the 1800s and before there were religious folk who believed it was blasphemy for temperance groups to take secular the Pledge of Permanent Abstinence. So, ironically, if it was not in the bible, you MUST pledge permanent abstinence to ever making a pledge of permanent abstinence of alcohol. You could do that, too, and not even need the bible to back you up. Then you would be out of any circular discussion or mental masturbation on the topic and simply enjoy the deep pleasure of alcohol AND, of course, the thus reduced joys of the normal appetite pleasures, like sexual tension to orgasm, cooking/ordering to eating, exercising to dopamine highs, truly appreciating good music*, sauna, polar bear club swimming, roller coaster rides, skydiving, you name it. All those WILL BE sacrificed to some degree by a pledge of PERMANENT drinking if you decide to go that route. AND, your life will likely be shorter.

There are actually a lot of people who essentially do that. They choose to be simply chemically dependent unto death.

*the music thing might seem counter intuitive as you’ve recently enjoyed posting music videos drunk. But try something like Saint-Seans organ symphony.
Organ symphony

nez

"Since I'm not at any kind of horrible, desperate "bottom" state acutely fearing for my life" is setting a future parameter with a thought.

enaiddes

(1) Physical and mental health
(2) Increasing closeness to God
(3) Simplifying my daily life down to the most basic activities
(4) Eliminating all self-imposed pressure
(5) Coming to grips with my past

Aellyce

Just re-read the whole thread and would like to react to one thing especially that was brought up more than once here, and is also brought up frequently in other areas of my life and relationships. That people get utterly confused about me, who I am, when they try to engage more deeply, they often no longer even know which side is up and what the relationship is about, where it really goes. That is also why therapy/counseling was not too productive/helpful for me - I would easily engage any curious counselor easily, especially those with more professional experience, who like challenge... they would get all tangled in it, sometimes in ways that conflicts even with their professional ethics... then just lost and helpless, sometimes frustrated. I have met a couple of psych professionals via my own work and, personally, a retired one here on SR (who died in 2015)... they usually had very solid boundaries, less affected by momentary emotional currents, saw right through my BS and gave me instant good suggestions...who could see straight through me from almost start. I think I'm usually a very enticing case initially, highly intriguing for a while, but then it sort of falls apart in the rabbit hole or in the complexity I tend to bombard everyone with... unless they have the experience and discipline to say 'no' to being influenced by it, unless they refuse to participate in my "deep dives" much (or the deep dives my expression triggers in them). I have experienced all that a hundred times in various contexts and relationships, and the very few who retained their detachment and remained more objective were quite helpful at times. There are always some people like that here on SR, and part of the allure for me to come back is to find new ones, and try to "seduce" those new ones again... I'm being very honest here about my motives. But these interactions have never resolved my drinking problem, obviously. I think these cycles of relationships can, and probably will, go on until I die - whether it's from alcohol or anything else.

GT - you probably already know that you are a current one in that cycle, and I really admire your patience and interest. I read your posts on the forum and keep thinking what on Earth drives this kind of patience and consistency? But I think I understand, because I have a similar desire deep down... to bring the best out of people I see potential in, using relatively simple principles I truly believe in. It's what drives mentorship the best, am I wrong? As for the music, thank you! I enjoy classical just as much as more modern genres. What you suggested is definitely music I will listen to while I'm sober. In fact, most of the music I posted on my blog here were my AV's taste, not truly sober-mine. The band Tool is sort of an exception as I enjoy them and relate to their style both drunk and sober, anytime... maybe I should give them up as they represent ambivalence too much? The most natural genre of music for sober me is not the Tool kind though, much more ambient, relaxing electronic, techno-type tunes, often inspired by classical elements but using modern technology. One of my hobbies in the past was working with various musical and visual artists, mostly providing ideas and inspiration and technological advice/solutions. I make my own music and graphic art periodically as well, but it's not my primary form of expression, probably why I've not become a career musician or visual artist in spite of talents many of my teachers in childhood saw in me repeatedly.

Nez - I always enjoy your posts to me. They are sort of cryptic but bring across a type of spirituality that actually works for me. So, thanks.

I do admire (sometimes even envy) people who have a more religious faith and gain inspiration from that in life. I tried to explore that for myself in my late teens, for several years, just didn't stick. I still do consider myself what is described as "non-religious spirituality", so I guess that's in line with secular Buddhism, Taoism etc, any philosophy that probes into deeper meanings of human nature and existence but without the supernatural faith element. But even the latter, I've never been close to it, part of the reason I'm so interested in everything about consciousness, any aspect of it, including some bordering on the esoteric. So ideas along those lines will always grab my interest. They may or may not help my (half-assed) sobriety, but perhaps good to stay in touch with, because the "spiritual systems" like Buddhism and similar provide awesome moral guidance for what's truly important in life, even in my convoluted, non-committed, seemingly chaotic world.

Dropsie

I really like the quote under your signature line. It is all about choice.

You strike me as someone who wants to chart her own course, which was a great motivator for me to stop drinking. Once I realised that I had no control, it was not a choice, the balance shifted.

I wanted to steer my own ship more than I wanted to drink, go for a walk without thinking about where we might stop for a pint, etc etc etc.

Thinking about drinking -- how boring and indeed rather pathetic is that. Or at least that is how I felt.

Fusion

Aellyce, is what you write of above, your addiction/reason for posting on SR? I was wondering how often, and how much, you drink per month? Do you want to stop drinking at your curent levels?

Aellyce

1-2x per week, that is typically a fifth or liter of vodka or other spirit in one round of drinking (like the one earlier on this thread), within ~24 hours or so. Then stop. Sometimes I go ~10-15 days without any alcohol drinking. You can calculate per month, but I would say between 1-6x a fifth or liter of spirit per month. I had other drinking patterns much earlier in my life, including daily, for a while... the overall amount was similar as then I would drink less in one go. So I understand daily drinking as well. The only thing I've never tried, and doubt I will ever will, is round-the-clock, maintenance drinking... or very long benders. As I said before, I lose interest ~after a day of constant drinking, and more of that also make me sick. All that is for a female 5'8", less than 140lbs now. I always stop when I feel physically very sick or mentally very depressed. Why?

GerandTwine

So you can have it all pay off when you take that next first drink X3,4,5. A p p e t i t e c y c l e.

Aellyce

Hope this is the future of the world.

Dee74

Hi Aellyce

I think you're being a little hard on yourself - you're not just here to draw people in - I've seen you post helpfully and intelligently to others manys the time.

The opposite to lying is not excoriating oneself

I agree with you that you won't quit if you can rationalise it's not a problem, or see it as some kind of defining characteristic or Born This Way thing.

I hope you will come to realise that you can be far greater than you're allowing yourself to be right now, and I hope you don't have to progress further into addiction to reach the point where you want to change.

D

Aellyce

I hope I will get beyond my current cynicism and nihilism and as well, Dee.

Aellyce

And the drinking, of course.

Aellyce

Of course it's not the fault of those animals. I'm using them inappropriately, to highlight my high on alcohol. It has nothing to do with those real animals.

It has all to do with the "animal" instincts in me that I can't inhibit.

GerandTwine

choose not to >—————————————————————> ^^

Obladi

Hi Aellyce,

I'm glad you stopped drinking and hope you're done for the time being. That's because I'd like for you to really "hear" me, you know? And what I want you to hear is that I understand, I can connect/relate to all of this. I think you know that because you (at least at times) watched me go through it. More than that, I would like nothing better than for something to hit something close to home for you. It's a feeling thing, not a word thing, but I'm going to give it a shot because that's how you and I communicate. Words, thoughts, theories, all of that...

From my point of view, you don't need to be scolded for being difficult to know. You probably have very good reason to practice inscrutability, even when it's harmful to you. Furthermore, I'd like to say that I went looking for you today to see what you were up to and found myself drawn in (in a shaking my head sort of way) to wonder what in the world was going on with you. When Mizz called you out, then you lied, then you corrected yourself within a half hour, I was really impressed. That was amazing.

You know that all of this talk describing how it's not really all that bad as it could be (or how it is for those other bottom drunks) is rationalization. You know this. You may not know that I was in the same mind space for close to a decade; addiction will do that to ya, no matter how smart you are. It did me, and I'm pretty intelligent if I do say so myself. What you may not know is how disrespectful you are being in an unwitting way to those other people. From my vantage point, a decade down the road from back then, all I can do is shake my head and say, "Of course you think that way. You don't know because you haven't been there. Yet. God forbid."

I see that in just a day or so you've gone from considering rehab to latching onto the the responses you want to hear. This could be a direct quote from my playbook: "especially because I doubt I would learn anything new there." except for that I didn't use the softening words 'I doubt:' Intellectually, you are correct; you will not learn any new facts or concepts that you don't already know. When I got to rehab (#2) and met my counselor and she started in on her break-the-patient-down bs, I said with intense frustration, "I know all of the Things, I just can't seem to get it!" And she in her All Knowing Way responded, "Then why are you here?" Wow. What a witch with a 'b.' Oh, Aellyce, I learned things there, but I sure wasn't the tidy made-for-movie version that Sandra Bullock was in that movie, "28 Days"

"Rehab can be great to snap someone out of an ongoing downward spiral, to aid detox or a very bad mental state medically, and to teach skills to people, but I don't need any of those." How do you know if you've never been there? I see you used the qualifier 'medically' to make sure we can't say, "But you are in a bad mental state, Aellyce." Very clever, but still - you don't know. Because you know what? The benefits I got from rehab were in direct proportion to what I put into it. The first time, I thought I was sincere, I thought I was doing all of the work. My counselors praised me, so I must have been doing it right, right? Wrong. I put nothing into it aside from skills I already had. Good skills that fostered me into a good job, the respect of my peers, the ability to financially support my children and household. I mean, it worked, but I was drinking again within a month after I left the place. This last go-round sucked rotten eggs. I most certainly did not learn the lessons I was supposed to learn, but I fought and kicked and wailed and cried until I learned what I needed to know. And what I needed to know had nothing to do with the mechanisms of addiction, or how to "do" AA or 12-steps or SMART recovery or any of that other jazz. I needed to know how to do me, unapologetically. (Unless an apology is in order. Which it often is. But I'm ok with that now.) This is what some people mean when they refer to "the gift of desperation."

You've also discarded therapy because you've already done that, because you're so skilled at playing games that it does you no good. What if you were to decide to stop playing games? What if you were willing to follow your feelings rather than your thoughts? Explore those deep dark corners that you can't even go to because there are no words?

"So trying to focus on "problems" that do not exist anywhere outside of intoxicated/hangover states would definitely be more useless distractions".
I would submit it's exactly those problems that lead you to seek out intoxication. It's a friggin pickle is what it is - I drank to escape something I didn't even fully realize I was escaping but to address that stuff I had to stop drinking. And whatever that stuff was, it was in large part not known to the person I thought I was when I was sober.

Yesterday was not the first time I was honest about all this, it was just the exact repetition of what happened already twice this year, and it's not even worth discussing further because we had done that before.
Au contraire, mon frer. Maybe it doesn't bear further discussion, but it most certainly is evidence that something more is needed.

I think the reason behind repeatedly not being honest here on SR is simply because I wanted to be part of the community but also keep my secret drinking, and I don't even exercise basic respect for those that spend a lot of time and energy talking to me, just want to have it all... but in the end none of it works well.
I think you're dead wrong about the 'basic respect' bit. Addicts lie. Addicts try to maintain a good front so they can carry on with their drinking or drugging. It's a fact and we all know it because we've all done it. I think you really want to stop drinking and you can't. I think it's more than just wanting to be a part of. I don't care if you lie and fess up. That's quite a lot of progress from where you were for the past several years, isn't it? Your dishonesty about drinking doesn't affront me at all and I'm dismayed (but not surprised) that anyone including yourself would take you to task over that. I used to say "AA is no place for drunks" in a sardonic way, but you know I meant it. Many people forget the torment of active addiction. I haven't. And I'm sorry you're In It.

I think what I am saying today is the most honest it can get, the helplessness that came out of me yesterday was not genuine at all, just my AV's whining... I don't recognize that as 'me' at all, all the stupid and immature things I do while drunk are so alien to me, don't relate to it sober at all.
It's probably clear that I don't think this is true at all. I've no doubt you don't recognize that yesterday person as 'you' at all. That's funny because I thought for a brief time that I was getting a glimpse of the true 'you.' The sober you doesn't relate to that person - so who is she? You (or is it your AV) are tricky with the wording, aren't you?:" "I think what I'm saying is the most honest it can get."

Just my thoughts on the subject.
Take em or leave em.

Either way, I'm over in the back of the bus with dwtbd, rootin for ya.

O

Aellyce

I really would like to let this particular thread go as it's a huge mess and I don't even like to see it on the list of the Newcomers forum now... Would much prefer to start with a new, blank page, but I think that won't be possible for me here on SR, for a while at least, after all the confusion I've made and the annoying rounds. Whatever, it is what it is now, can focus on what's next. Posting this mostly, because I want to say Thank You for that complex and thoughtful post to Obladi. Also appreciate that you don't react to my drunken posting the way I did on your thread when you still struggled with it. I won't react to the post in detail other than saying some parts definitely apply and very helpful, other parts I'm pretty sure are not relevant to me, but appreciate the whole thing and the time and energy to compose such a deeply considered message very much. I'll definitely take what applies and use it to adjust parts of my perception that do not serve me well. Also apologize if anything I said was dismissive, disrespectful or arrogant to anyone.

I can actually see the beginning of a possibly very bad downward spiral for myself right now (e.g. drank again yesterday, which made it more frequent relative to the previous binge than my overall pattern recently), and definitely think it should be stopped before it progresses any further. I trust the self-perception I have sober much more than drunk personally, don't believe what some normies say, that alcohol is some "truth serum", is true for alcoholics. The effects corrupt us instead - everything: thoughts, feelings, behavior, in very deep ways. The way I feel sober and drunk/badly hungover are night and day, what I usually say about being generally happy and productive sober is true... it's more that I just don't compromise with normal happy alone. I very much liked the suggestion on this thread that I need to accept the compromise that my sensual and emotional equilibrium will be different in longer-term sobriety, period.

I also think that I figured out how to do it pretty well last year, it worked wonderfully and I felt great, was dealing with normal challenges, not with the consequences of drinking. But then became overconfident, stopped doing the "recovery work" I was doing after about two months and just wanted to do life... that may work for some people but obviously hasn't served me too well. The tools SMART provides were very effective for me as they are, didn't need to adjust them or invent something brand new and unique, more just pick the ones relevant to my challenges and not worry about the rest. It even took less time per day back then than all the time I now spend thinking about addiction, recovery and posting on SR. It was not too complicated at all but complex enough to cover a bunch of things necessary, for me, to progress and feel satisfied. I said already back then that simply mental exercises to handle my cravings were not enough/safe for me at the beginning. I would get there, like first time, but just need more at the beginning. I won't fret it too much now though - tried something, figured it didn't work too well, next chapter please. I still believe it is the question of choice but I need to make the right choices, not the easiest ones.

I think what's good about my participation in SR, in spite of all the chaotic, hard to untangle behavior and that I do get stuck in some unproductive ways of using the forum, is that I don't disappear when I pick up the drink, so can continue to learn and keep trying different things at least. But obviously the productive way to change things is to do it stably, "fake it till you make it" does not work, that couldn't be clearer. I won't beat myself up about the false starts and lies though more and I agree, O, that it's not necessary for anyone to do that, it won't make a constructive difference and this is an addiction recovery forum, not a place to look for friends primarily.

GerandTwine

Hi A,

You learn about AVRT while NOT under the influence, and then you simply start practicing the simple Technique of ReCognizing your Addictive Voice. Again while NOT under the influence of alcohol.

As a grant writer you obviously have finely honed writing skills which also means you are very good at thinking about your thinking or re-cognizing your thoughts, feeling expression, role playing - all that kind of stuff that is described, for instance, in the Purdue Writing Lab website on grant writing.

So, AVRT, which you have only pretended to use before, will be actually very easy for you to truly use. So far, here on SR, it seems to me you have tended to voluntarily use a convoluted writing style similar to a lawyer having to produce documents for discovery by sending a whole truckload over to the other side.

What Obladi did to deconstruct one of your recent posts was admirable. But then, that response also seems daunting to me struggling for comprehension. Go figure. Who could guess figuring out how to never drink again could be made to seem so complicated?

For you, using AVRT will be a piece of cake. You will quickly come face to face with “What ARE your plans for the future use of alcohol.?”

In AVRT, to answer again your last question above, you MAKE IT UP out of thin air. You Arbitrarily decide to be 100% confident that you will never drink again, and recognize any doubt as your AV, which, of course, you will have chosen to not act upon.

Once you recover, you can go on and do whatever you want as a common teetotaler. You can even backtrack into recovery communities and connect with people combining not drinking with way-of-life activities if that’s what you want. That’s what I’ve done, but I’m not your typical example.

GT

doggonecarl

I often cite commitment as a necessary component of sobriety. But sometimes I wonder. Say we are friends, or even just acquaintances, and I ask you for a favor--say to be picked up at the airport at a certain day and time. You say yes. And sure enough, on that day, you are at the airport. Was it because you were committed to picking me up? Motivated to pick me up? No. You said you would pick me up. Gave me your word and you kept your word.

When you form your Big Plan, and say the words, "I'm not going to drink, ever again" then you have given your word to yourself, a promise, not to drink. A vow. Commitment no longer a factor.

Unless you are just committed to drinking. Then all the posting in the world isn't going to change that.