Maudcat

Hey, Vandelay, so far so good, right? Keep posting, letting us know how it's going. Yes, this is a recovery forum, but I like to think that we welcome all. Take care. Peace.

ViJay

I am coming late to the party, because I apparently only stop in here once a year when things are sketchy. I am not an alcoholic; I live with one. So I wanted to comment, in case Art does stop in here again, from that perspective.

You said that you used to isolate yourself on the weekends cuz that was your drinking time, but now you do want to be around friends and family, so you are spending the weekends with your girlfriend (and other people, I presume). I can say, on behalf of your friends and family: please don't do us any favors. If you are able to isolate yourself while you get stupid from drinking, please do that.

Sadly I could not isolate my husband on the weekends we had his daughters when they were small, so they got to see their dad, who is an awesome man -- witty, kind, smart, fun -- become an idiot. Over and over again.

Sadly I could not isolate my husband from family visits with my siblings and friends from out of state -- so they got to see how he can instantly lose his ability to reason and fly into a rage when he's sloshed.

Sadly I cannot isolate my husband from me on the days he chooses to drink. He is retired, and I work from home, so we are in close proximity while he enjoys his social drinking ... with his eyes glazed over, his words coming thick, his jokes utterly stupid ... Until, frankly, he becomes a different person, a person I don't like and certainly don't want near me or touching me.

He is not a tall or heavy guy, so 4 shots and the transformation begins. I am assuming your 8 beers puts you in about the same league. Maybe you "feel good" or mellow or whatever it is you like about getting drunk ... but trust me: other people are repulsed by it. That's not a reason for you to quit, but it is a reason for you to stay isolated from friends and family while you're doing it.

5 years ago my husband went to rehab because his life was in the toilet on account of alcohol, but he never really wanted to quit. He, like you, feels he is now able to be a moderate, social drinker. Most of the time, he doesn't drink, and our life is good. I love the man. But on those days he decides it's his drinking time, all the old crap falls right back into place and he turns into a stupid person I don't know or care for.

It would be better for me if he went somewhere else to do it and came back when he was sober. Since you have the luxury of not being near those you love while you drink, please give it a serious consideration.

Cornbread

That's a great perspective from a SO, please continue to contribute here.

When my wife told me I repulsed her it hit harder than you could imagine. Oddly it was a contributing factor to me getting serious due to it being a wake up call.

Cornbread

I just had a great chuckle thinking about how we have illusions of grandeur at times. I'm not saying this is the case with the OP but Vijay's post made me think of a drunk saying "I'm such a wonderful alcoholic, so in control that I can grace my SO with my presence anytime I want. See how I am able to make such great choices?"

buk1000

This is a fascinating thread. I have been sober 18 years and I know I probably can not do what you have done vandelay. But I can also tell from reading the things you say about it that I would far rather return to daily drinking myself into oblivion than to ever deal with the level of obsessive thinking that you are describing.

It's been a long time since I have been drunk and to be truthful I really don't remember the sensation. But reading this thread has very much brought back to mind the mental agony of the various techniques for moderating that I went through before I chose sobriety.

I wish you well and I also hope you keep the door open for complete sobriety. You seem like a reasonable person.

Misc72

I needed this thread! I've been in this mindset for a while. It is so exhausting debating whether or not to drink. I've recently renewed my vow to sobriety. This thread was a nice reminder why I did so. I still applaud the OP for opening up this topic. It's just the way it is and we all need to be reminded of the mental anguish involved with the notion of moderating.

Meraviglioso

Hello and welcome to the forum. I agree that your plan sounds very exhausting (and impossible for most people). If I understand correctly you are essentially binge drinking 3 weekends a month, with one week of extended drinking?

Have you heard of alcoholic kindling? This link may be of interest to you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindli...tic_withdrawal)

Particularly this section:
Binge drinking may induce brain damage due to the repeated cycle of acute intoxication followed by an acute abstinence withdrawal state.[8] Based on animal studies, regular binge drinking in the long-term is thought to be more likely to result in brain damage than chronic (daily) alcoholism. This is due to the 4- to 5-fold increase in glutamate release in nucleus accumbens during the acute withdrawal state between binges but only in dose 3 g/kg, in 2 g/kg there is no increase in glutamate release. In contrast, during withdrawal from chronic alcoholism only a 2- to 3-fold increase in glutamate release occurs. The high levels of glutamate release causes a chain reaction in other neurotransmitter systems. The reason that chronic sustained alcoholism is thought by some researchers to be less brain damaging than binge drinking is because tolerance develops to the effects of alcohol and unlike binge drinking repeated periods of acute withdrawal does not occur,[5][6] but there are also many alcoholics who typically drink in binges followed by periods of no drinking.[9] Excessive glutamate release is a known major cause of neuronal cell death. Glutamate causes neurotoxicity due to excitotoxicity and oxidative glutamate toxicity. Evidence from animal studies suggests that some people may be more genetically sensitive to the neurotoxic and brain damage associated with binge drinking regimes. Binge drinking activates microglial cells which leads to the release of inflammatory cytokines and mediators such as tumour necrosis factor, and nitric oxide causing neuroinflammation leading to neuronal destruction.[5][6]

Repeated acute withdrawal from alcohol which occurs in heavy binge drinkers has been shown in several studies to be associated with cognitive deficits as a result of neural kindling; neural kindling due to repeated withdrawals is believed to be the mechanism of cognitive damage in both binge drinkers and alcoholics. Neural kindling may explain the advancing pathogenesis and progressively deteriorating course of alcoholism and explain continued alcohol abuse as due to avoidance of distressing acute withdrawal symptoms which get worse with each withdrawal. Multiple withdrawals from alcohol is associated with impaired long-term nonverbal memory impairment in adolescents and to poor memory in adult alcoholics. Adult alcoholics who experienced two or more withdrawals showed more frontal lobe impairments than alcoholics who had a history of one or no prior alcohol withdrawals. The findings of kindling in alcoholism is consistent with the mechanism of brain damage due to binge drinking and subsequent withdrawal.[10]

healthychoices

Very interesting thread.

My pro-booze train of thought jumped straight in and said 'this could be the answer!' but I let that one go pretty quick.

Vandelay, I appreciate you taking the time out to be so candid, feels to me like that 'perfect week' tightrope will slowly fray and the neurological damage, whilst perhaps not now so evident will start to catch up.

Obviously this is your journey & long may your 'success' continue, it honestly sounds like you're having a pretty good time & I'm slightly jealous. Enjoy it while you can my friend.

FBL

I tried moderation for years. Didn't work.

notgonnastoptry

See, I don't agree with this, at all. I don't think most events are better without alcohol. I think they are enhanced because alcohol is a social lubricant, and, if used responsibly, can enhance one's experience in any setting (as long as it is controlled).

BUT, and this is the most important part, some of us cannot enjoy these occasions with a side of alcohol. Alcohol is the whole act and there's not room for anything else. For that reason, I can't and don't drink. In a few months, it will be a year for me. I'm not tempted, don't think much about it, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish I could have been a responsible drinker, enjoying things from time to time because I still believe sitting down, having a few beers/wine with friends would be a very pleasurable thing. It can't be for me. I don't know that I'm fine with that--I'm not teetering of the edge or bargaining with myself. I just know that formula isn't in the cards for me.

Dee74

I guess at some point in the past I might have agreed with you notgonnastoptry but I'm honestly at ease with being a non drinker now...

I have enough sober time to compare drinking me and sober me.

There wasn't much social lubrication going on, and not much enhancement and by the end no pleasure.

I have an amazing life now better in all respects from when I was a drinker.

If there's one think I can impress upon other folks here it's that recovery progresses - none of us stays the same because recovery is and IMO should be about growth

I hope you get to be totally at ease about not drinking too notgonnastoptry

D

MrPL

My take on this is if you and those around you are happy and healthy there s no harm done.

I personally can't do it, but most of the people I know have a couple of drinks a few nights a week, get drunk every now and then and are perfectly in control of the situation. If you can do this in my view you are in with the majority (though these people don't post in a recovery forum, so be careful).

I managed to temporarily do what you are doing. It went in cycles. Sometimes it took weeks, sometimes months, the last one I managed for about 2 years, but eventually I always lost the plot, and every time I lost it I went one step further, so sobriety it is for me (and I am a hell lot happier than I ve ever been!).

And I don't find the post inappropriate in any way.

Best of luck to you!

P

gettingsmarter

It's way too dangerous for me to have 1. The risk is way to high for me.

notgonnastoptry

I guess I am at ease in the sense that I am not tempted to drink nor do I want to go back to that lifestyle. I've done all the holidays, football games, summer stuff, without drinking. In an alternate universe, though, where I didn't abuse alcohol, I would have seen the pleasure (like many of my friend and relatives) in the occasional drink that results in social lubrication and good times.

You are right, though. At the end, it was no fun and it was social embarrassment, again and again, sickness, and hospitals. No fun there. So, it's not that I'm not living a better, different life as a sober person, I just wish I could have used in moderation. Maybe someday, I'll get to the point that I realize even moderation is not something to be missed, but since I'm not a teetotaler by nature, ethics, religion, or otherwise, I think I will continue to believe that there's nothing wrong with using alcohol appropriately and that, yes, if I had gone a different route, that would be something I could enjoy. As it was, I could not and will not be able to enjoy it.

PurpleKnight

For me I couldn't do what the OP proposed, and what I find fascinating is people took time to join a recovery website but have no issue with alcohol.

If I could have drank and it wasn't causing me problems, or I didn't think twice about it, I would never have known SR even existed

. . . in hindsight every cloud has a silver lining due to the fantastic people I've met as a result!!

MicroMacro

Where there's a will to drink, there's a way.

Dee74

I didn't want to come across as slapping you down notgonnastoptry.

Your point just struck me as something I don't worry about anymore and I wanted to share that

D

Fly N Buy

Thread is like a moth to a flame.........OP is your first name Art!?

Asa

OP, I'm you in ten or twenty years when the 2-3x per week binging is no longer enjoyable. The kindling WILL catch up with you, and you'll spend the majority of the week feeling lousy before starting the cycle over again. And you'll start losing control. Maybe you'll find an excuse to start earlier than the day, or make it 4x a week just this once, or carry a flask around to counter the anxiety that crops up when you're withdrawing. It's awful and it's not fun the vast majority of the time.

vandelay187

Hi Everyone.. figured I'd check back in on this thread. There's been some great feedback on page 5. In response to ViJay that does sound sad/troubling with the children element. I don't have kids and I never will so that isn't an issue for me. I live a very comfortable quiet life and wouldn’t trade that tranquility for anything so it's very easy for me to just drink by myself on the weekends. Sounded easy enough and then recently my girlfriend has been taking issue with my drinking. Even with me being perfectly upfront and reasonable in saying, I'm 5 beers in, and I'm drinking tonight, maybe we should hang tomorrow.

She doesn't like the fact that I'm 'checked out' and not present in this life. Reading into her perspective it's like someone taking a pill, dis-appearing from life and essentially replacing the people around them with a substance. I get it, and that can’t feel great… but everyone needs their space sometimes. It’s a hard point to argue because ‘my space’ always comes with a side of alcohol so credibility is lost. I ALWAYS discuss these matters with her completely sober however (in an attempt to maintain credibility), and take the time to really listen. Unfortunately the conversation goes no-where and I feel bad it’s taking its toll on her. It’s sad because I know I’m not going to stop drinking and I find myself thinking maybe it’s best for her to move on and I can go back to being alone, which I’ve always enjoyed, and some day find someone who isn’t so sensitive to it. Biggest point is it’s only 8 beers and I do have a problem with those who demonize drinking to ‘get drunk’. I don’t think many casual drinkers sit down to only have two. I came up with the comparison that’s like having sex to not ‘finish’. What’s the point??

That aside I get what people are saying re - this not being sustainable, looking for excuses to drink earlier, or abandoning the plan all together in 5 years, and the health implications of the on/off binges are certainly compelling.

So I’m also a compulsive planner and my friends and I have jokingly diagnosed me with Aspergers. I’m a Sheldon Cooper through and through. So I’m glad this sounds like too much work – that’s good for the crowd here. But for me it’s not that bad, I plan my month out in 7 minutes and then it’s autopilot. After 29 months of this it’s pretty routine and I don’t even have to think about it. Recovered alcoholics count the days and that # becomes powerful. That’s why I count the months and when designing this plan I knew that number would be similarly powerful to me. For that reason I find myself LESS apt to break those rules as the years go on. The fear of what would happen if I abandon this plan keeps me on track as well. Also as a side bonus of the plan I find myself reaching 5, 6, or even 7pm on a Saturday before cracking that first beer. So the notion of carrying a flask I don’t worry much about. This is working on multiple levels in that regard.

The health argument is a big one. But I don’t go through withdrawals, and remember we’re talking 8 beers. I really wonder if that’s actually harmful. Time will tell I suppose.

And lastly – I ran the girlfriend situation by one of my best friends in the last couple weeks. He called me out on being an annoying drunk recently. He said it’s fine if you’re alone but is different when you’re the only social option. He went on to say hey at least you aren’t an angry loud belligerent drunk at the bar. Maybe it’s the Aspergers driving you want to be alone and not so much the alcohol. He said ultimately you may have to choose between a substance and a person and you’ll have to make that choice and live with it.