SoberRightNow

I've recently stopped going to AA for much the same reasons that you describe, among others lilac. I tried a couple of sponsors, tried the steps, wasn't for me. It suits some people, it doesn't suit others.

I'm a scientist at heart and I can't help but question statements like "It works." For that to be true for me, it would have to be demonstrated that recovery rates among people "working the programme" were statistically significantly higher than people who were not, or that the relapse rates of people "working the programm" were statiscally significantly lower than those who were not.

Since there does not appear to be any evidence supporting this, I personally conclude that "working the programme" is not actually demonstrated to have a causal relationship with continued recovery. This lack of evidence suggests that the people who remain sober while working this programme would have most likely remained sober without it.

Of course it is possible to argue that those who remain sober without the programme are "dry drunks" or that those who relapse when on the programme are not working it "properly". This is the very worst kind of psuedoscience and I have no time for it.

Each to their own and I knock nothing, but the idea that because you are finding that AA is not for you, your sobriety is somehow automatically in jeopardy is all too common in the rooms I have been in and I consider it at best facile and at worst dangerous.

Just my 2c.

Veritas1

I used to think this about people too, but then I learned I was judging others.

I learned also that I thought too much of myself.

I learned that I was selfish and self centered.

I learned that me judging others kept me different.

I will someday add the people of my homegroup to my amends list and make amends for my judgement.

awuh1

I have felt some of the same frustrations, and with some meetings more than others. The bottom line was …..what am I going to do about it? I decided on several strategies. Here are just two.

The first was to toss an idea out that would force people to think. Well …some people to think. This happened in tonight’s big book study. I pointed out that Bill and Bob (not to mention dozens of the other first 100 alcoholics in AA) got and stayed sober for years without doing the 12 steps. In fact Bill was sober for six months without the steps, meetings, or even another alcoholic to talk to (who were more than a few days sober, as far as I know). This rattles cages at times, but it’s the truth and it does force people to think. If it’s done in the right spirit, it can be valuable. It can help (some) people to become a bit more flexible in their thinking. It can also get at some of more subtle aspects of “how it works”.

A somewhat more effective ploy, is to listen carefully for problems people have with the program and seek to come up with something to say that might be of benefit to them. This is exceptionally easy to do actually, and you can see the results in their subsequent shares. I used to hear “I turn my will over but take it back…turn it over… take it back” ad nauseum at meetings. I started talking about my belief that this is literally impossible to do. People make their own decisions, and that no one, not even God wants to take that away from us. The question for me is ….how closely does my behavior conform to what my HP would have me do? In my view, it’s just a little better way to think about the idea. It’s helped a few people who were getting hung up on the language. This also works well for the AA notion of powerlessness.

I guess the bottom line is that we are all dealt different hands. The important thing is what we do with them. I need to stay occupied, and I need to do some good. At present, what I contribute is much more important to me than what I get.

BillyPilgrim

Veritas
This I do not understand
What is wrong with being different?
Lilcatree's OP berates that very attitude. Independent thought is not right?
Not knocking what works, but some people can get sober, and do not want to be conditioned into a particular thoughtset (and yes some people do need that conditioning to get sober)
Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater

Sapling

Not getting through the steps in a year is your sponsors fault....All the groups in your metropolitan area suck because you get resistance from them...The reason you are an alcoholic is your family's fault.....It's all because people don't want to examine themselves....Mabe that's it....Maybe you're just having a bad streak of luck. I don't know...I think if you opened your mind up a little bit and checked your ego at the door...You might have a better shot....Or go use a different program...Or do it on your own....Sitting and b!tching about it sure doesn't help anyone. Sorry if I sound harsh...This program saved my life...And most of my friend's lives....And when I hear people say...It's not working for me...It usually comes down to...They're not working for it.

stairs

This is great lilactree!! I the same way and am in AA, today will make 3 weeks sober. I was just telling my sponsor last night that I really like our group because they don't speak in 'sloganese'. The only thing I have been told more than once by more than one person is that "this is a spiritual program". I realize that the 'sloganese' developed because they are truisms but I find them pretty irritating. I went back to AA because I was out of options. It's working out very well so far. I am going over to my sponsor's house tomorrow to do step work. She's an old time AA'er. I have been blessed to find this group/situation. My experiences in the past with AA were more like yours. Best of luck to you on your journey. There are other options. Rational Recovery is one you may find more suitable.
Thanks for posting that, I know you are serious but it reminded me so much of myself I had to laugh.

Db1105

AA is basically a bunch of effed up people trying to help each other get and stay sober. There is more than enough in the program to find fault with. There is no limit to the story of the insane people and insanity found in and about AA members. The core of recovery relays on a spiritual principal or basically ******. Since there is no manic pill to cure alcoholism, most systems of recovery depend on some type of ****** to clean people up.

All I know is that AA has worked for me and a lot of other people. If you make up your mind to make it work, it will. If not, it doesn't take much effort to see its faults. It was up to me to find, and hang out with those people who were serious about getting sober. I know for me I do not want to roll the dice to see what will happen if I drink again. Just remember that you are dealing with a disease that tells you that you don't have a disease.

atimeofchoice

"You know, A, it's really NOT a compliment when someone calls you an intellectual" - said to me by my buddy, Steve.

Well. Didn't he just pull out a chair for me at a table set for one?

I do understand the internal cringe prompted by platitudes, axioms, etc.....They're like a pat on the head with a "there, there" chaser when you're craving something deeper.

When I stop trying to prove to everyone - including myself - that I'm six kinds of special, smart and funny, I begin to focus on the intention and the people behind the rote and repetition of cliches. They truly want to help and sometimes it sounds more like Peanuts than Leonard Cohen. Wisdom presents itself in many ways, but the end result is still wisdom.

I can get my word food via Atlas Shrugged or War and Peace (or whatever) at home, but I can't get the connection with people who understand my struggle at home. Being mindful of intention can go a long, long way.

I really hope you get what you need, wherever that may be......

Mark75

LOL... Here's Barney asking Moe if he can get a drink with his AA chip... Since it's red, I'm thinkin it's his thirty day chip...



Maybe you meant the other Barney,

Yea, too much of that sloganese gets under my skin. I thought maybe they were talking to down me... Then, when it stopped being all about me, not so much.

What's behind those slogans? Sometimes there are some real pearls of wisdom and experience... Sometimes, well, they are misleading and miss the point, dangerously so.

Get recovered, any way you can !!

Threshold

Just sharing my E,S&H.

I was raised in a particular religion. It's a fine religion. It has brought forth many spiritually strong people and has done much good in the world. It gave me a strong foundation in morality and taught me the benefits of faith and spirituality in my life.

I no longer belong to that religion. Though I followed its teachings and practices for many years, I didn't get that something that so many get from it. For some reason there were things about it that kept me from being able to participate fully enough, deeply enough or long enough to get what others got.

I moved on to a faith that I could engage with deeply enough to "get" what I sought. That doesn't mean there was something wrong with me, or the religion I was raised in, but for a whole variety of reasons, it was going to be a very very long struggle before I "got" it, if I ever did "get" it.

Since being a perfect member of that faith was not the most important thing to me, I moved on until I found a place better suited to my personality, beliefs, and experiences. It is possible had I stayed longer and practiced harder one day I may have "gotten" it. But I truly felt it was wiser for me to try to find a better fit, rather than cracking away at something that worked for others, but wasn't working for me.

AA may be the last house on the block for many many people. Meaning they tried 1, 3, or 600 other options that didn't get them where they needed to be, and moved on until they found one that worked. AA may be the 1st, 3rd, or 600th house on the block for others, who find it's not what works for them, and they move on to something that does.


I have people from the faith I was raised in telling me I just didn't hang in there long enough, try hard enough, submit deeply enough etc. And they are right, but perhaps there are some reasons that I did not do those things. Some true obstacles in my personality, will, or experiences made it difficult or impossible to fully engage. There are other faiths that I can work with that I am able to fully engage myself with. It makes more sense to me, and I find deeper spiritual experience and growth in my current faith.

I stick with what I can actually give myself over to. No amount of people telling me I should be able to do what they do will make it true.

Willingness is critical but willingness alone isn't what it's all about. Honesty too, and sometimes honesty has led me to admit that I am not willing or capable of doing something. I am openminded enough to know when to say when.

I am not in AA, but I am in another 12 step program, because I can "get" with it.

DayTrader

Lilactree...... I'm going to recommend re-reading Langkah's post as it pretty-much sums up my thoughts: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3351505

Hopefully I can shed some light as well (and hopefully for SoberRightNow too - but I'm going to focus on Lilac as hers was the original post).

Your experience in AA VERRRRY closely mirrors mine of 5 yrs ago when I was getting started.......

I was FAR too defiant to do 90 in 90. Not being able to drive and having no form of public transportation in my area at all helped give me a "valid" reason to not do it but even if I was driving.......I would not have done it. So....that left me with being able to attend meetings close to my house. There's on about 3 miles away that I'd ride my bike to at 8:30 on Tuesdays. I also got a ride from a friend to a Monday meeting. In all, I was hitting those 2 each week and seeing a court ordered substance abuse therapist on Saturdays (she focused on 12-steps ONLY in her practice so it was like another meeting for me).

Those phrases and more were what was and is to this day, the basis for "AA" in those groups. That stuff is all the ppl there know......tips, tricks, one-liners. To them, that's what they were taught, they never went beyond them, somehow they stayed dry and that's now what they "teach." I too had a sponsor and he had me "working the steps" as he'd learned them....asked me to pray every day......and suggested I do some service work for my homegroup. I was doing as he told me.....I was doing what it seemed everyone else in my homegroup was doing........and I was MISERABLE.

THANK GOD I had that therapist to lean on. I'd tell her what I was hearing in the meetings.....how I was feeling....what "they" suggested I do......she'd ask what my sponsor told me...... lots of exchange between us. Given how defiant I was, she was careful to never TELL me much (lol) but she was great at "challenging" me to try something. Always up for a "challenge," I'd end up taking her suggestions.

There were sooooo many of those "challenges" that made a difference but I'll hit the biggies. One was to look at "rarely have we seen a person fail who's thoroughly followed our path." She focused on "thoroughly" and asked me if I'd been thorough. As I answered "I'm thoroughly doing what they tell me......" she stopped me and reminded me it's MY life......MY recovery......and to be careful to just sit and wait for direction without taking some initiative on my own. "Was I," she'd ask, "doing everything that they (the first 100 in aa) did to recover?" I didn't know if I was.......so she challenged me to find out what they did and see if I was.......

Another challenge comes from p 164:
“But I will not have the benefit
of contact with you who write this book.” We cannot
be sure. God will determine that, so you must remember
that your real reliance is always upon Him. He
will show you how to create the fellowship you
crave.
The challenge was simple..... "Mike, you hate AA.......fine......AA's wonderful -millions will tell you that and many millions over 75yrs have demonstrated it works, 100% of the time, for those who DO 'AA.' Is it possible you're not doing AA but, instead, your version of it or someone else's version of it?" ........yeah, that's possible. I historically cut corners and I'm seeing all sorts of sillyness, immaturity, unkindness, judgement, harsh responses, silly phrases that don't carry any weight, and so on in the meetings I'm going to........so maybe "they" aren't doing it either and they're not able to teach me "real" AA cuz they don't know it. .......she reminded me, if my reliance is upon GOD....and I'm asking Him for help........and I'm doing my end of the deal to put it out there into the universe that I want/need more in my recovery......that God WILL hook me up. Before long......I found this "new" group that had been around but I never went to...... for God's sake, it's 8:30AM.....on a SATURDAY. Who has time for THAT? Saturdays are for sleeping IN.....not another stupid meeting. Well, I went...... BAM.... eye-opener. Everyone smiling. Everyone LOOOKING for new ppl. Greeters as you walk shaking your hand, offering to show you where the coffee is, where the bathrooms are, tell you who's who in the meeting so you kinda get to meet some of them right away..... "Hmmm, this is different" I thought....and "good-different" too!

I used to stand up a couple times per month at those other meetings when they asked for announcements and man it was so hard........ I'd swallow my pride, say my name, tell em I live at this and that crossroad and that I need rides to meetings so if anyone can help, please see me afterward. In 6 months of doing that, I had 1 or 2 numbers and they were sometimes good for rides to those same 2 meetings..... meh.... I was hoping for more than 2........and I was hoping to find some NEW meetings....

At this "new" saturday group, I made that announcement and was sure.....like at the other places......nobody would do $hit about it. I was wise to AA.....they TALK a good game but nobody DOES anything other than coffee and chairs at a meeting.....

Well, I guy was taping me on the shoulder before I sat down... "Hey man, that's the coolest thing I've heard in years.....please talk to me after the meeting.....I'll take you to any meeting you want to go to any day of the week." That day, I had about 8 or 9 other ppl come up, give me cards or ask me to write their # down and PLEASE call them as they want to go to more meetings and I'd be a great motivator for them.......so I'd be a big help to them if I'd call and ask for a ride.

I won't say those first 2 meetings weren't "AA" but I'll say this: nobody there really had anything I wanted......they seemed to be all talk, no walk.........and wow, was this "new" meeting different. Like that p164.....I'd been asking God and putting it out there (standing up and asking for help). I now had a new homegroup FULL of ppl with LOTS of stuff I wanted (honestly, I didn't really even understand that line, "if you want what we had..." I never wanted much of what they had other than sober time and nobody seemed able to tell me how to get it other than "keep comin back cuz meeting makers make it" and a bunch of other $HIT that didn't help in the slightest.

I found that fellowship I craved........it was at a time I didn't like, I HAD to seemingly humiliate myself to get it (lol...i haaated asking for rides) but yanno......it was there. I had a new homegroup, a new sponsor (that guy who tapped me on the shoulder became my new sponsor) and I found a whole boat-load of ppl who had all kinds of things I wanted. They were wise.......their words applied to me......they didn't sit and bitch about problems for an hour......no one person EVER dominated a table.....they were courteous to one another.....they hugged one another (even the guys hugged all the other guys).......they LOVED one another and it was obvious - these ppl were LIVING the program, not just talking about it at a meeting.

So....lemme tell ya, maybe you've......in spite of all the meetings you've been to.......not yet found strong AA. Maybe you have but you've got some of your own prejudices in the way and have been blocked from seeing what it really is. Maybe you, like me, just have high standards.........which really means.........maybe you, like I, are a CHRONIC alkie and "not drinking and going to meetings" doesn't hardly TOUCH treating what you and I have. I needed (although I wasn't sure how it would look) some DAMN BIG changes in my life and I didn't know what to do, how to get em, or anything about where they'd come from....................UNTIL I FOUND THE FELLOWSHIP I'D BEEN CRAVING all along. These guys had a process they followed...lol.....they did 4-column inventories, they called their sponsors and were held accountable for not just working steps but for how they were "practicing these principles in ALL THEIR AFFAIRS, they did things together outside of meetings, they looked for new faces at the meeting and went up to introduce themselves to them instead of hoping that new guy would figure it out on their own.....etc etc etc etc.

Another thing I was doing was this: "Well Mike, these meetings seem to suck.....you leave as messed up or more messed up than when u got there almost every time. That therapist is challenging u to find new meetings.....but u can't drive and nobody is offering to help you out even though you're asking......maybe you need to look differently." So.......I went ONLINE. The online "chat" meetings I found (never did find the one here on SR) seemed worse than the meetings in real life around me......all complainers crying about this and that. LOL, I had enough of that in my head already..lol. What I did find were online open talks. Talks by ppl done at major state conventions, at BIIIG conventions. I figued, if they were invited to talk in front of a couple thousand ppl......odds are they know what they're talkin about. Those open talks taught me that there's a better "brand" of AA out there then I'd been experiencing. I learned I hadn't REALLY worked any of the steps the way the AA program suggests I work them. So no wonder I felt like crap.......I wasn't working the damn program that I came to AA to work. I obviously hadn't found recover so OF COURSE I felt like crap. These were the same years when I was almost violently opposed to the term "recoverED alcoholic." I thought what I was doing WAS recovery and given how it felt, to say "this is the deal, I'm recovered" would be asinine. If these folks considered this feeling that of being recoverED.........they're nuts. Heh.....it became apparent that recoverED IS possible.....I just hadn't seen or experience it yet.

So......new homegroup chuck-full of STRONG members.....new sponsor who worked the AA program, not his version of it (he's got some of his own twists but not many)......online open talks that I immersed myself in and I was off and running. I was reeeeeeeally hungry for knowledge, a better way to live, a better way to feel.......I was hungry as hell for RECOVERY......and up till then I though "this is as good as it gets.....and this SUCKS."

In my personal experience in 5 yrs of AA, Bill Wilson and the 100 ppl who wrote that book weren't exaggerating when they said "rarely have we seen a person fail who's thoroughly followed our path" nor was Bill Wilson exaggerating when he suggested that the only word he'd change in the book was "rarely" cuz he wanted it to be "never."

Given your time in AA, hopefully your head is pretty cleared of the old drinking crap.........so, if it feels awful......and you're not convinced you've had a complete change and in love with life...... then it's pretty simple.... you haven't. You haven't recovered yet. And yanno.....I was in the SAME spot! I found the online talks at about 10 months cuz I was dying for sommmmmething. Found that new homegroup at 1.5 yrs. ......that when my recovery REALLY started. It's out there....you haven't found it yet. Or, maybe you found it and you're one of those folks who "can't or won't" give themselves COMPLETELY to the program.

Maybe one of the other recovery programs will work for you......I don't have any successful personal experience to share with you on them....others do. But lemme tell ya.....it sounds to me (aka, MY OPINION) that you haven't really experienced AA yet. You have been to meetings.....you've done some version of the steps I've never heard of......and you seem reeeeally willing (which is huuuugely good)......but you haven't tried/found AA the way AA was designed to be from the beginning. You went looking for a Labrador ..... found a labradoodle.......and you're wonderin why your dog doesn't seem to be just like the other Labradors you see 'round town. (lol.....I dig labradoodles btw, it's just a handy analogy).

**I'd also highly recommend posting this down in the 12-Step area as that's where you'll find the highest concentration of ppl who've succesfully worked the AA program..........for decades in may of their cases. If you wanna find out about how good AA "works," prolly best to ask the ppl who've been able to do it the best, yanno? Like, if I'm gonna get golf lessons.....I wanna learn from someone who's a good golfer and a good teacher and who has experience....

(I'd apologize for the long post but......lol.....I'm long-winded and not reeeeally sorry. hahaha).

Nirvana1

Would you rather all of us tell you "you're right, just give up."?

Just like others, I'd like to point out that you've put in a lot of work but have found reasons not to do the actual hard work of the 12 steps. After going to meetings for one year, you are still blaming an "irresponsible" sponsor when it's clearly very easy to ask someone else to take you with the steps. You can literally do that in one day and start the steps correctly but yet you have found a million reasons why everyhing is not working for you.

How's that for a straight answer?

sugarbear1

You stayed sober for over a year, but haven't gone through all of the steps, do you think it's time to be more proactive in your sobriety and make something else happen?

I find it difficult to believe that all of the meetings in your area are the same. I've attended all kinds of meetings in my area and find a lot of differences in each meeting, many of these don't mention one slogan at all and there are others (many) which focus on the solutions and not the problem; those meetings do exist. My home group refuses to mention slogans and we don't have a single slogan posted where we meet. We discuss the big book and stay in the solution.

Can you find a sponsor who is willing to meet with you once a week to go over the steps? The steps are the solution, not the meetings. The one on one discussions, in person, are quite beneficial. I only wrote things for steps 4, 8 & 9.

With all of these meetings, how often do you get together with some of these people for fellowship and fun outside of a meeting? I meet at least once a month to do something fun with the people (friends now) whom I've met. We have a sober blast!

Maybe in your area it's that those people are using the meetings and not the steps as the solution, so no one really realizes that without the steps, those slogans don't mean a whole lot, but it doesn't stop them from using them and the rest of what they say. Yeah, it does sound quite stagnant there.

AA works if you work it, but you need to step up the work. This is your life.

AA isn't for everyone nor is it the only way to stay stopped, this is in the big book.

Congrats on over a year of sobriety!
Prayers and love sent your way,

flamingredhair

I'm not laughing at your distress but at how facetiously you put it.

ReadyAndAble

Different people have different sensibilities. I find it a little disappointing that some folks here seemed more interested in correcting lilactree than understanding her.

DayTrader

FWIW.......there were probably 50.....maybe more meetings within 15 miles of my old house (where I spent 4.5 yrs getting sober). I've been to, as far as I know, all of them. I found TWO that were decent.....and 48 that were, for all intents and purposes, some alternative version of AA, slogan-instead-of-AA hell, middle of the road, dump your problems here, group bitch-fests. And I have the luxury now, at 5 yrs, of knowing what to look for. When I was new, I didn't know real AA from non-AA. Until you've found it, you don't even know what it looks like.

That said........ the best response to me when I was crying about not finding good meetings would be:
I'll give Lilac the benefit of the doubt........but the ball is STILL in her court. Recovery is out there, she can have it, I'll guarantee it.............. but it may not be as simple for her to get/find as it is for the ppl who get lucky and stumble into a great meeting, get a kick-a$$ sponsor, and are taught old-school AA right out of the gate. Given her posts, she isn't practicing much of what I know to be AA......but maybe she's not experienced real recovery from alcoholism yet.

DayTrader

If I'm burning my hand on a hot stove.....and I come crying about how my hand hurts but say "it's not cuz of that stove thing, it's because of this or that"......I'd hope someone would CORRECT me over just identifying with my pain and understanding how much it hurts.

Driving 60mph..... not noticing the cars in front of me have stopped.......please CORRECT my driving! Don't identify with my frustrations and lack of attention to what I'm doing and leave it at that.


......I get your point........but sometimes the best HELP comes in forms that don't appear, on the surface, to be in the form that we want 'em.

sugarbear1

ReadyAndAble, I see no correcting here, I see experiences shared.

I avoid some meetings here because those people seem to have a watered down version of AA (yes, I am judging them) and they talk well enough, but their actions don't model what they talk (they say one thing and do another). So, I DO understand what lilactree is saying. I've also seen these same people meet daily, 7 days a week and I came to the conclusion that a group can stay sick together. I didn't stop drinking to stay sick (or as sick as I was).

In my experience, I would have been back out and drinking if I were in lilactree's place. I NEEDED a new solution, a new relief other than drinking to keep myself from drowning in this thing called life. I know this as I've been in and out of AA for 25 years. This is my story. I wasn't done drinking and I hadn't found someone to guide me through the steps until last May. I don't believe I would stay stopped this time around without working those steps. They saved my life.

AA isn't the only way, so if it doesn't work, try another program.

Lilactree said she wasn't giving up on AA, so suggestions were made. I also know that how she is feeling about meetings is how I've felt, too. I don't own a vehicle but I somehow get to meetings all over this area.

Today, I stick with those meetings that focus on the solution. Sometimes I get to the other (watered down) meetings, too. That is when I listen hard for the message of recovery or I add to the meeting as I did work the steps and I have had a spiritual awakening, so I do have something to add.

lilactree, if you are just venting, go ahead. I just know that the relief does come from the steps and there is real recovery in AA. Whatever you do, do it like you did while drinking--go for the gusto with all you have! I'm still in awe of your year+ of sobriety, that says a lot about you.

ReadyAndAble

edit: taking back a personal dig. Stand by my original comment.

sugarbear1

I had to re-read the posts, yeah, maybe you are correct, ReadyAndAble!

Maybe lilactree will get something out of all this mess.

Enjoy a Sober Day!