wpainterw

These discussions remind me of the famous Hindu story about the blind men grasping the elephant. One grabbed the ear and said that the elephant was nothing but an enormous banana leaf. Another felt the trunk and said the the elephant was an enormous snake. Another, feeling the leg, said that the thing was nothing but a hair covered tree. In view how much has yet to be determined about the true nature of alcohol and addiction, and since there is always a risk in generalizations, dogma, etc. it seems preferable to try to find what's valuable in the various approaches and not be overly concerned about all of the niceties. For example, AA has many insights gleaned from experience, the value of having a program of recovery rather than just using willpower, the insight that recovery entails and results in a maturing process, a "catching up" for all the lost years when maturing was put on hold, the wisdom of not trying to change stuff which can't be changed, the appreciation of one's limitations. The list goes on and on. AVRT on the other hand, offers a look at what is likely the very essence of addiction, namely the power of the more primitive part of the brain over the more rational conscious part and how that primitive "lizard" brain (the "Beast") seeks to have alcohol restored to the body because the body has changed its chemical makeup to require it in order to function in its own perverted way.
So do these two approaches really contradict one another? Only if one insists on dogmatically developing a rigid structure which all "alcoholics" must "accept" in order to "get well". Isn't it better not to generalize and to be somewhat eclectic and flexible since who can say that each and every alcoholic is just like his counterpart? Or to take a page out of AA, isn't a bit of humility appropriate in view of all the things we don't definitely know about alcoholism, alcoholics and ourselves?

W.

soberlicious

Say it!! Nice post wpainterw...

Ranger

Oh yeah, Painter? Well, my elephant is STILL better than your elephant.

Awesome post, Friend.

Taking5

I don't know too much about AVRT but I support sobriety - no matter how you get it or keep it.

wpainterw

That's O.K. Ranger. my elephant is just large enough as it has to be. Go in peace and as they say in the Indian territory, "Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg !"

W.

ddrayer

This was much what I was trying to get at. Many people in this thread have said similar things and some havent. But I feel better today about my sobriety having read briefly through AVRT and meeting for an hour and half with my sponsor. Both pushed me further in my quest in a different yet equally valuable journey. I don't even necessarily need to say alcoholism is a disease. If people want to say its just my weak will power thats fine, whether its a disease or a lack of self control the end result is the same. Its a distinction without a difference for me personally. The pedantic arguments to split the two seem kind of crazy to me!

Also I hope that my post did not stir up too much animosity. I have found it very enlightening and informative reading different peoples opinions and experiences. In some sense we all walk this path alone, but its great to know I'm not the only one who has walked it! Thank you all!

Mark75

This is good stuff... but I am one who always tries to find common ground.

This AVRT... not engaging the AV, turning away... I get that and it was an important part of step 3, for me... Turning away, but turning towards... ???

Spirituality was the answer for me and entirely consistent with AA's spiritual solution.

My spiritual awakening, seeking God's will, all that, is a way for me to not engage the AV... though I am not a fundamentalist bible thumping christian... I think some could say... hmm, the AV ... "the beast" ... could it be... SATAN... ???? (borrowing from the church lady on SNL and trying, I guess, to keep things from getting too heavy handed... LOL)



So I don't really see AVRT and AA to be mutually exclusive... even the part about powerlessness... though I am open to the idea that for some, simply turning away from the AV is not enough, something needs to fill that hole ("hole in the soul" ...?? LOL)

Just a little rambling and some thoughts. I am not an expert on, well, anything, really. I have found a way to bring some serenity into my life and AA has been a wonderful way to do that.

Terminally Unique

Interesting that you should mention this. I have previously posted about the similarities between the subjective experience of the third step and the mechanics of AVRT.

Indeed it could.

ddrayer

a quick follow up question. Reading through AVRT seemed like there was zero room for relapse. I mean some people do relapse in AVRT it seemed like youre screwed...

wpainterw

Thanks Mark 75. It has been said, it has been written, that "The Kingdom of God is within you!" Yet, may it also be true that within lies also a "Beast", the primitive part of the brain, perhaps what was known to the ancients as Original Sin? So many religions have involved an inward struggle. Is this not evident in the letters of St. Paul? And, in that struggle can we not call out for help, each to that power which happens to be the object of belief? It can be Christ it can be what the ancient Chinese called the Tao, it can be some soul returned from Paradise to help those who continue to suffer or it can be only that presence which one feels in a mighty sunset or the snow settling down in some awesome canyon. Folks may differ as to what this may be but many seem to think that there is a realm of the spirit, an alternate reality, accessible by faith, intuition or by genius. And some believe that from this alternate world may come the strength to overcome this illness, end the struggle and, hopefully, subdue the Beast.

W.

Terminally Unique

That's right, AVRT is not about quitting just for today. It is about quitting for good. I myself tried to "wing it" at first, thinking I would go back to drinking after a certain amount of time, but it really doesn't work very well if you do that. It essentially becomes a "white knuckle" experience, which defeats the purpose. If you really want a broader picture of AVRT, though, you should read the book, which is far more comprehensive than the free crash course.

There is also an active thread on AVRT in the "Secular Connections" forum:

Rational Recovery

Lenina

this is a really good thread with good well- reasoned insights. I've always thought the human mind struggles to find the finite in infinity. I guess it's a way of making sense out of the insecurity of Life?

What ultimately made sense to me was feeling the nature of the Universe as a vibration, like music. I don't explain myself well but maybe this could be useful to someone else. The very first thing we as beings experience is our Mother's heartbeat. It's a rhythm, a harmony I find comforting. It's a sense of being in Harmony with Nature.

for me, being out of my right and natural senses due to alcohol is just wrong. Not so much in an immorality way but as in a disharmony.

I do hope this makes sense!



Love from Lenina

ReadyAndAble

I'll offer an agnostic amen to that! I'm no expert, but every half measure (the old "I'll take a break for a month, see how I feel after that" strategy) failed miserably for me. It was white knuckle time all the way.

I think it's because until I finally swore off booze for life—not even leaving a tiny crack like "well, maybe on New Year's Eve" or "maybe in 20 years or so at my daughter's wedding"—until I made that absolute, ironclad commitment, deep down I still perceived myself as a drinker.

When I finally said "never again," and not just accepted it, but embraced it as a life-saving opportunity, that's when things began to click.

I don't know what you mean by that. I think everyone agrees you redouble your efforts. You add something new to the mix. You re-assess and you take action. The point is to never drink again. But if you fall short, you certainly don't just give up.

Terminally Unique

While Rational Recovery owns the AVRT trademark, there is a difference between RR and AVRT. Jack Trimpey did not invent AVRT, which is as old as the hills, harkening back to an era before addiction treatment existed. Trimpey synthesized AVRT from the common experience and wisdom of people who recovered on their own. RR, on the other hand, is Trimpey's brainchild, and he has decided that dissemination of information on AVRT is only one of its purposes.

Lenina

It seems to me the hardest part about getting and staying sober is making the honest, gut- level decision to do so. To truly "grok", to use a Robert Heinline word, that we can never again put alcohol in our bodies. To fully understand and commit to a lifelong sobriety.

That's some scary stuff no matter what method you ascribe! Lizard brain, Beast, disease...it's all about finding a way to deeply commit. AV rang most true for me. Letting go of the resentment that I could no long indulge in the deep pleasure I got from alcohol was hard in spite of the for certain bad consequences.

but, once I made that commitment, it was a relief. Once I understood the AV and beast activity, it was simple. I no longer feel cheated at a wedding when champagne is served. I don't care who is drinking what! It's of no interest to me!

This has been my experience. AA principles helped me be a better person, I think. It helped me develop habits of honesty and introspection. It helped me be less judgmental and let go of resentments instead of letting them fester and causing me anguish. I came to really joyfully be grateful for all the good around me.

Love,

Lenina

lostbutterfly

I attended an excellent aa group, but I found it all too abstract for me. Guess I'm not very spiritual. AVRT suits my simple, black and white mind. I felt absolutely hopeless after 'failing' at AA, because I had no idea there was another way. I would love to go back to my 'home' group again now am sober.

Terminally Unique

I'm probably not the best person to take advice from if you are looking for a soft approach to addiction. I sometimes get accused of being like the hardline AA's by the secular crowd, with the obvious intention of showing me the error of my ways. The truth is, though, that I don't really begrudge the solution-based, non-professional AA crowd. While their methods certainly differ from mine, and there are things we quarrel over, such as signing court slips, for the most part, they seem to maintain long-term abstinence without relapsing every two weeks. I can't really argue with results.

Ranger

AA leans towards a one-day-at-a-time approach and psychology. This key difference can be a deciding factor in which program will be more attractive/effective for a given person. Ultimately, however, these programs share the goal of lifelong abstinence.

@DDrayer - if you read something in the AVRT literature that led you to conclude a person is “screwed” if s/he relapsed in AVRT, I’d just chalk it up to the overall tenor of a program that pulls no punches about it’s fundamental premise…i.e. a person must decide to stop drinking once and for all. Of course a person wouldn’t be really screwed. But, s/he would need to reassess his/her motivation for quitting and how s/he applies program principles…suggestions that apply regardless of recovery program!

Mark75

Awesome point painter...

ddrayer

Thank you so much everyone. What an enlightening and motivating thread. You guys have really helped me out. Onto day 5 of sobriety. Yesterday was the very first day in the last 5 years of my life where I had no desire to take a drink. Just a small step but it felt good.