ddrayer

I have been trying to get sober (alcohol) for 3 months. I have many stints of nearly 2 weeks but keep falling off. (Currently at 4 days and loving it, got past the real s*** part of the first day or two).

I have been going to some AA meetings and just read through the AVRT. What I don't get: why do AA and AVRT seem to work at such conflicting purposes. I know a devout AVRT follower would scoff at AA meetings, and AA disciples probably dont have a high opinion of AVRT. BUT: I like basically everything in the AVRT however when I need sober support I love AA meetings. So much of the discussion and whatnot is beyond 12 stepping, its like free counseling for me in dealing with a lost friend. Here's what I think AVRT ignores (just read the bullets, so long-time AVRT people please gently correct me if I'm wrong). AVRT seems to acknowledge that alcohol addiction is a long time friend for many of us. And we have killed that friend by becoming sober: there is a grieving process when you lose a friend (esp if you were the one to kill them). I like to think of my meetings as grief counseling in many ways.

Go ahead flame away! Thanks.

IndaMiricale

I personally dont care what people use as long as they find happiness and balance in soberiety.

I personal use the orginal , oldest, most stolen concepts, and successful one in AA.

So if someone wants to "scoff" at someone elses program, then they are not working any kind of recovery program that will keep them on track.

best wishes on what ever you choose.

Good love, Inda

DrivenHeart85

Hey ddrayer,

I've done both AA and AVRT so I'll try to span the recovery ocean here and see if I can help. It's not so much the talking or "counseling" that we get wound up about AA with as it is the disease and powerlessness theories. Those theories feed into your addiction. If you're hell bent on staying in AA meetings for just the talking, that's probably fine but you need to stay on guard that you don't start believing the many concepts where AA and AVRT part ways. According to AVRT, the majority of AA's concepts are Beast talk and feed into your addiction. Because of my own intense and lengthy experience in AA it made it very hard for me to grasp AVRT at first.

And some more experienced in AVRT might tell you it's your Beast that wants you to keep going to AA, not you. Because in AA you can "relapse" time and time again until you "get it" and you can say you drank again because you have a disease and have no power over your disease. (Though in my personal experience, if you tried a line like that some old timer would give you a serious talking to. lol)

Pigtails

I have not tried AVRT except that I've been modifying my thinking and I think that's part of it. Anyway for me the disease and powerlessness theories of AA have helped me get and stay sober. I kept thinking I could do it on my own, and failing, until I accepted that I have this condition, and surrended. It was a refreshing and helpful feeling -- I am no superhuman like I thought I was -- and has helped me stay sober for 24 days so far where my own efforts only got me 17 days. I believe AA will help me for good, but that remains to be seen as of yet.

lookinforward

I will throw my 2 cents in. The reason is that we are all the same but different in so many ways. I have chose a path the does not include either facet. I am on a journey to become the person I know that I am inside. I use my experiences that I have learned over the years and apply it to my everyday life. I have done much wrong and tried every many paths. This time I am not only not drinking. I am becoming a better me. I do believe in a higher power. I call him God. Some choose other words to describe their higher power. Some say they draw from a power within. I think they are the same. No one is right and no one is wrong. I do feel that abstinence alone is not enough. Best of luck on your journeys.
Dave

Mark75

Don't know a lot about AVRT, but I never had any issue with it... some of it, that which I know about, I find find helpful... I use AA, I like the spiritual approach, always have. The only thing about AVRT and the founder of RR, is that he can be very anti AA... and AA, well, AA has no opinion on outside issues...

DrivenHeart85

And if AA works for you, that's perfectly fine. If it doesn't though, remember there are always other options. I think when I get upset with AA it's because I felt like I was lied to when they say there's no other way. So when I didn't want to do all that was AA anymore and dropped out, I returned to drinking and pretty much accepted my doom. I really would've rather died a drunk than take AA's route any longer. So my advice is always to give AA your whole heart if you like, but don't think that drinking is your only option if you don't "get" AA after giving it all you got.

Mcribb

I blindly accept AA because without I would die. It has given me so many gifts. Hope you stick to one that works AA or not. We all want you alive and kickin

Pigtails

I agree that different strokes work for different folks. I have yet to be told by anyone in AA that AA is the only way. If I am told that, I will wholeheartedly disagree. But AA has definitely been the best way for me so far.

Terminally Unique

The logic driving the 12 Steps and AVRT are actually similar, but they are based on opposing axioms. The steps are based on the axiom that one is powerless over addictive desire (ie, "the Beast"), and AVRT is based on the axiom that the Beast, while cunning, is ultimately powerless.

DrivenHeart85

I know this is off topic, but TU, you sometimes remind me of the Candyman. On these forums, all you have to say is "AVRT" and TU magically appears from nowhere. I love it. lol

littlefish

Drivenheart wrote: AA staunchly refuses to develop professionalism and sticks to the theory that any drunk who walks in off the street can carry the AA message.
I am an AA-er and yes...it can happen that the message gets twisted and people can say the darndest things about AA. One of them being that "there is no other way". Nonsense!
My sponsor has mentioned many times that "AA is not for everyone". I have heard it countless times from other AA-ers.
As an AA-er, I say it too: it is not the only way. If you find a program that works for you and keeps you sober: fantastic.
For those who push the line that AA is the only way: there is nothing in AA literature that states that.

DrivenHeart85

When I'm on these forums, that's what I hear AA'ers say that it's not the only way. But no one ever said it in my 8 months of AA...but I think there might've been something a bit too cultish about the meetings I was in. lol I remember my sponsor mentioning something like SMART once and completely bashed it down saying they only have temporary recovery and that doesn't last long term and the only real way to quit was AA...but like I said, there was something a bit "Children of the Corn"-ish about those groups I was in...they didn't even advocate trying other AA groups in the area because they said the other groups were doing it wrong. lol

SamanthaIam

Something I found very valuable -- and for someone like me, essential -- is RR's way of explaining that recovery can happen right now, and forever. The approach is a good fit for my black-and-white brain.

Thank goodness there are various approaches, 'cuz everyone's different.

littlefish

TU wrote: Only once is alcohol mentioned in the steps, and only once is powerlessness mentioned: they are both mentioned once and used in the same sentence, step one:
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - and that our lives had become unmanageable.
I just want to clarify that the powerlessness referred to is over alcohol, not an "addictive desire". There is a difference: alcohol is a substance, addictive desire is an internal dynamic in our brain.

littlefish

Drivenheart, that is why I made that tongue in cheek comment about any drunk who walks in off the street can run the AA program. Actually, it's true. It is a very unprofessional outfit and sometimes it can resemble a very badly run charity bake sale. Having said that, though, those very qualities can be it's strong points, too.
And, yes, some meetings can be very badly put together, and wander far away from the true spirit of AA.
If you found a group that discouraged going to other groups, that would start a few alarms in my head.
That sort of attitude is completely against the nature of AA, I have never heard a group bash another group or discourage members from going. It sounds like you got tangled up with a rather messed up group. That's really too bad and it is always disappointing to hear when anyone has had a negative experience with AA.

IndaMiricale

WE in AA have never claimed to have the monopoly on recovery.

So true littlefish it is sad one small parts of the program do lose sight or give a bad experiance. But totally agree with you we do not look down or put down any other options for people.

ReadyAndAble

I say, take whatever works, wherever you find it, and leave the rest.

Terminally Unique

It is implicit, if not explicit, in the literature that "powerless over alcohol" really means powerless over the desire to drink alcohol in the first place. Where is a Big Book thumper when you need one?

soberlicious

You don't have to go to meetings to apply the concepts presented in the 12 steps. They are age-old ideas. AA did not invent nor does it have a monopoly on wisdom like acceptance, faith, introspection, honesty, confession, amending, praying, and serving others (all of which are imbedded in the 12 steps). People have been doiing these things in one form or another since the "beginning of time". One can apply these things successfully on their own, while also rejecting the disease concept, one day at a time, and other related dogma.