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Its been called to my attention. . .

Old 12-19-2009, 06:06 PM
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Its been called to my attention. . .

. . . that telling newcomers about the fatal nature of alcoholism is inappropriate and there have been complaints by other big bookers who take offense to my doing so.

So I offer for a topic, what does this paragraph mean to you:
Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it. Keep his attention focussed mainly on your personal experience. Explain that many are doomed who never realize their predicament. Doctors are rightly loath to tell alcoholic patients the whole story unless it will serve some good purpose. But you may talk to him about the hopelessness of alcoholism because you offer a solution.

Alcoholics Anonymous, "Working with others" P. 92
I contend to offer empty reassurances to a newcomer that "Things are going to be alright" as well as unfounded "hope" does a diservice to the newcomer.

None of us knows that things are going to be alright. To suggest it will be is a lie. Chances are, things are going to get worse. . . much worse.

As far as hope goes, I wasn't receptive to recovery until I was completely and utterly hopeless.

Hope, to me, is the gift of the recovery process. I couldn't find it, because I wouldn't look for it, until I was totally hopeless. Until I admitted complete defeat, and its ensuing ramifications, I was commited to solving my problem on my own.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:15 PM
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A message without hope isn't a very attractive or effective one IMO.

The great thing about SR is, despite the grim overall picture of addiction - and we've all lost people or stared death in the face ourselves, we have thousands of members here who've triumphed.

I don't see anything empty in that promise. It's real, it exists and it's tangible.
That's the message to pass to the newcomer IMO

D
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:18 PM
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I've never heard that, so I don't know exactly what you're talking about?

There *is* a solution, so there's no cause, really to keep that witheld?
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:21 PM
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I think you should share your experience, you have a good message... But share your experience, How YOU were probably going to die of alcoholism and what YOU did to recover from that seemingly hopeless condition of mind, spirit and body...

None of us knows that things are going to be alright for another, nor do we know things are not... especially on this electronic forum, without face to face contact...

Like I said, you have a good message. Please continue to share YOUR experience, strength and hope. Especially the hope part.

You asked

Peace and Joy this Christmas.

Mark
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by basIam View Post
. . . that telling newcomers about the fatal nature of alcoholism is inappropriate and there have been complaints by other big bookers who take offense to my doing so.

So I offer for a topic, what does this paragraph mean to you:
Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it. Keep his attention focussed mainly on your personal experience. Explain that many are doomed who never realize their predicament. Doctors are rightly loath to tell alcoholic patients the whole story unless it will serve some good purpose. But you may talk to him about the hopelessness of alcoholism because you offer a solution.

Alcoholics Anonymous, "Working with others" P. 92
I contend to offer empty reassurances to a newcomer that "Things are going to be alright" as well as unfounded "hope" does a diservice to the newcomer.

None of us knows that things are going to be alright. To suggest it will be is a lie. Chances are, things are going to get worse. . . much worse.

As far as hope goes, I wasn't receptive to recovery until I was completely and utterly hopeless.

Hope, to me, is the gift of the recovery process. I couldn't find it, because I wouldn't look for it, until I was totally hopeless. Until I admitted complete defeat, and its ensuing ramifications, I was commited to solving my problem on my own.


Well,, telling the truth always hurts!

Send them my way if they give you any trouble. I will gladly submit names and date of friend that didn't make it.

AG
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:35 PM
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But you may talk to him about the hopelessness of alcoholism because you offer a solution
You forgot to offer the solution in the post in question.

I wish I had better news for you, but you are probably going to die from this. Despite every intention you have to stay sober, you will most likely fail.

So what are you going to do?
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:39 PM
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Well, I ALWAYS follow it with hope. . sometimes the dialogue needs to be followed a little further than the initial post in which I break the terrible news. But I have found, from my personal experience, that the news has to really sink in before the message of hope is effective.

I never tell anyone they will die. I tell them that it is the most probable. This comes from my experience, as well as historical fact. To leave this out is a lie by ommission.

Again. . . I NEVER stop there. . . Granted, some may choose to not face the truth and high tail it before I get the chance to follow up, but I always present the solution.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:41 PM
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This is a message forum. You might not get a second chance to offer the solution here.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:42 PM
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MG is right.

I try to never talk about the pits of hell with out point out the light.

From my experience only about 7% of people stay sober. The locked up, covered up number I don't think there is an easy way to guage besides saying they are the other 93%.

So I am not willing to gamble with those odds. Some of my friends did and well...
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:46 PM
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I am not responsible if someone else drowns or ODs UNLESS i held a gun to their head.

IF they are serious they will stick around. If not well, they need more 'out there time' IMO.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:49 PM
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IMO..i tend to think that SR,

..is more about help.other than hope..

..and i thank SR, for that..
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:49 PM
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I agree to an extent that empty sayings like "It's going to be alright" may not be helpful. More often than not, alcoholics will be to hell and back before things are ever alright, and sadly, for some it never happens. But these sayings do offer support, and although they may not have immediate meaning or results for the newcomer, one who does recover will most likely appreciate such comments later down the road, knowing that someone out there had faith in them.

Just my two cents...good night all
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:52 PM
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I kind of figured you were headed that direction with your post... but..

some may choose to not face the truth and high tail it before I get the chance to follow up
or, perhaps, in this forum, in this type of exchange, on the internet, you've lost them to follow up... which is a shame, because you have a good message.

Mark
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:52 PM
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ohhhhh... okay.

Someone PM'd me the reference thread.
Sorry, I was confused about the ...
direction of this thread.

It's a 'flies/honey/vinegar thing.

Sorry for the intrusion.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:55 PM
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We can share our Experience, Strength, and Hope if we wish to be of service and make a difference in another's struggle.

I cannot not imagine life without Hope...

For me, there is always hope.

We cannot walk another's path for them nor can we know the turns their path will take....we can reach out a hand...it is up to them to grasp it...
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
This is a message forum. You might not get a second chance to offer the solution here.
In the immortal words of my sponsor, "Oh well..."

Sorry, just being a little irreverent

Point taken, MG, I will keep that in mind, and try to engage a little more.

Regarding the post in question, I did finish with an open ended question in the hope the dialogue would continue.

See??? I wasnt without hope!!! (sorry, more irreverence)
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:35 PM
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None of us knows that things are going to be alright. To suggest it will be is a lie. Chances are, things are going to get worse. . . much worse.
I get it. I like honesty. And I am not receptive to coddling. But that above quote as true as it may be, goes both ways.
We dont necessarily know it isnt going to be alright either.
So I am sure thats why we share our own experiences instead of telling someone that this is def going to happen. Even if someone does keep going the path they are doesnt mean it is going to get worse or better. No one knows for sure.
But for a newcomer especially. I think its good for the initial support to be positive and supportive to keep them interested.

When are we getting our thanks button back??!!
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:18 PM
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Hey guys...it was my thread where the controversy started. Everyone is different. Some people may come here desperate, with no idea how to get help, no clue what do do because they are so messed up.

Then you have the majority of posters like myself, who drink too much..but know it, and realize what negativity it's bringing to our lives. We see the problem....we are researching on how to stop doing what we are doing, and we use this forum as a tool....a tool that allows us to speak out loud to strangers who know EXACTLY why we do what we do...and know our feelings towards booze. I can come here and tell you guys my feelings and thoughts and it's amazing because there is nobody else in the world I can do that with. Basically I just need someone to listen to listen to me.

I think if I was really bad off such as the first type of poster I explained...and I read your post telling me my situation is basically hopeless and will most likely die and fail...well I'd say FU*K it.....might as well just go out with a bang.

However I see your post for what it was intended and " get it". I will change and not let alcohol ruin my life.

Thanks for listening everyone.
Steve
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:44 PM
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It's all Bullsh!#, we all know were gona die if we keep drinking after being so concerened with our drinking that we come to a forum like or go to a doctor. Forums like this where strangers give us hope is great, but we are the ones that really have to work, smokers that pull a drag thu there throt hole know there gonna die, those who drink after the doc say "if you drink again you WILL DIE", sky divers who jump after somone tells them there shut has a rip in it... opps, thay may not because its not the same logic somehow!!!

13 days sober, 14 days today but slipped tonight, I know I will die and you cant scare me, and I know you all may as well be pen pals that could care less...

We drinkers at some point dont care if we die at times, its not a scare tactic, all we have is hope...
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:54 PM
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Dee and I, with the backing of MG and the other Mods, intend to keep the Newcomers Forum, a Forum of Hope. There is hope, there is always hope, and sometimes it is all we have. As Newcomer, I was so beaten down by my addiction that I was grasping tightly to the last bit of hope I could hold on to. I almost didn't make it. And, thank god I didn't meet you at that time. Because here I am, 9 1/2 years later, sober, happy and trying to offer hope to others.
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