Do they even KNOW what they are doing?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 48
Do they even KNOW what they are doing?
Ya know, Ive been dealing with my husbands addiction/sobriety/replapse for roughly two years now...
And saturday will pretty much define my life, I am making one of the biggest moves of my life and moving 4 hours away from him, my family and his family. I figured the best chance my kids will ever have at a normal life will to be far enough away from him that it will be incredibly hard for him to get to me. Too far to catch a ride, and too expensive for a flight (which he'd never save enough money to get anyway)
But I wonder if he ever stops and thinks..."man Im a real load of crap." Even after he got sober, I wonder if he felt that way, or thought that way..or if he was just really that grandiose that he thought he had done no wrong because he was in active addiction, like he wrote it off as ok behavior because of his illness. I mean at some point he has to KNOW? But makes no effort to make a difference.
I would never make a good addict. I still remember stealing a pack of bubble yum when i was 11 and feeling terrible about it. I STILL feel bad about it! I could never imagine.
Anyway I guess thats why hes relapsed so many times, because he cannot follow the 12 steps, because they reveal what kind of person he really is. He cannot be honest with himself or other people. I wonder what comes first, the lying or the addiction?
And saturday will pretty much define my life, I am making one of the biggest moves of my life and moving 4 hours away from him, my family and his family. I figured the best chance my kids will ever have at a normal life will to be far enough away from him that it will be incredibly hard for him to get to me. Too far to catch a ride, and too expensive for a flight (which he'd never save enough money to get anyway)
But I wonder if he ever stops and thinks..."man Im a real load of crap." Even after he got sober, I wonder if he felt that way, or thought that way..or if he was just really that grandiose that he thought he had done no wrong because he was in active addiction, like he wrote it off as ok behavior because of his illness. I mean at some point he has to KNOW? But makes no effort to make a difference.
I would never make a good addict. I still remember stealing a pack of bubble yum when i was 11 and feeling terrible about it. I STILL feel bad about it! I could never imagine.
Anyway I guess thats why hes relapsed so many times, because he cannot follow the 12 steps, because they reveal what kind of person he really is. He cannot be honest with himself or other people. I wonder what comes first, the lying or the addiction?
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7
I posted earlier about the same thing? My AH still lives here and is trying to quit and being very mean verbally about it and I was wondering if his head ever clears if he will wake up and think, "holy crap, I screwed up BIG time"?
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 4,269
Thank you for putting the best interests of your children before all else.
Ya know, many people, regardless of addiction, are real slow and often never grasp that they have been operating at a load of carp level and the impact their behaviors have on other people, especially those closest to them.
Waiting for the epiphany, is like waiting for the big pay-off, one that may never come. Letting go of the hopeful fantasy that one day, some day, amends will be made, is a very necessary component of recovery from acute codependency.
Ya know, many people, regardless of addiction, are real slow and often never grasp that they have been operating at a load of carp level and the impact their behaviors have on other people, especially those closest to them.
Waiting for the epiphany, is like waiting for the big pay-off, one that may never come. Letting go of the hopeful fantasy that one day, some day, amends will be made, is a very necessary component of recovery from acute codependency.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the South
Posts: 228
To somberheart and nahird: I honestly do not think so. I think that people like this, whether they fill their void with drugs and alcohol, or whether they become workaholics, are missing a component of human feeling or compassion. They simply don't feel things like the rest of us do. I've come to call it an "emotional deficit". My ex-husband was (and still is) that way, and now my AS is that way. I think they learn somehow to fake it, learn the right things to say and do when it serves their purposes, but it's not real, not from the heart.
....and meanwhile there's the rest of us who love and care so much it cripples us, if we let it!
....and meanwhile there's the rest of us who love and care so much it cripples us, if we let it!
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 445
Originally Posted by KuanYin 
To somberheart and nahird: I honestly do not think so. I think that people like this, whether they fill their void with drugs and alcohol, or whether they become workaholics, are missing a component of human feeling or compassion. They simply don't feel things like the rest of us do. I've come to call it an "emotional deficit". My ex-husband was (and still is) that way, and now my AS is that way. I think they learn somehow to fake it, learn the right things to say and do when it serves their purposes, but it's not real, not from the heart.
....and meanwhile there's the rest of us who love and care so much it cripples us, if we let it!
....and meanwhile there's the rest of us who love and care so much it cripples us, if we let it!
But I think this group is in the minorty; I think most addicts actually do experiece a great deal of emotion. I think that is why feelings of shame, guilt, emabrassment, depression effect so many addicts and recovering addicts.
I also think that it often drags them back down, because if they cant learn to deal with these feelings; the pain often leads them to self medicate with drugs or alcohol again.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 119
After AH was in the psych ward this week, I learned something interesting. As many as 70% of people that are diagnosed with bipolar disorder are substance abusers. A lot of them have no concept of consequences, especially during a manic episode.
I'm not saying that you AH has bipolar disorder, but it's an insight into why some addicts are different than us.
I'm not saying that you AH has bipolar disorder, but it's an insight into why some addicts are different than us.
Clever Yak
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: ---
Posts: 4,360
Coming from an addict here, YES, we know what we're doing but our decision making is so muddled by the pull of the drugs that we're unable to get out of it until we lose pretty much everything. We (or at least I) feel so guilty for causing so many problems in our family that it actually continues the cycle because we use the drugs to mask the guilt. I believe that's what drives a lot of addicts to suicide. We're not just mean, heartless, scum (with the exception of abusive people, IMO) we do still have a brain that processes emotions, we're just unable to express it in a real way. Don't ever think addicts don't care... They do, the worst part of it is that we realize what we're doing but don't have the will the stop it.
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: not sure
Posts: 452
"Don't ever think addicts don't care... They do, the worst part of it is that we realize what we're doing but don't have the will the stop it. " as Speedy stated.
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This is what makes it hard for me to let go. I do believe they care but are powerless over it and continue to use to mask the guilt. Then I feel sorry for my AS because of this! I just need to stop being such a sissy, stop feeling sorry for people, stop giving, stop it, stop it, stop it! I'm working on it.
__________________
This is what makes it hard for me to let go. I do believe they care but are powerless over it and continue to use to mask the guilt. Then I feel sorry for my AS because of this! I just need to stop being such a sissy, stop feeling sorry for people, stop giving, stop it, stop it, stop it! I'm working on it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 271
Wash can you help me understand what you mean by "not having the will?"
This is how I think of "will". I don't really want to go workout tonight but I WILL go because I know it WILL make me feel better. So I will dig deep and just go although I really don't want to.
Thanks
This is how I think of "will". I don't really want to go workout tonight but I WILL go because I know it WILL make me feel better. So I will dig deep and just go although I really don't want to.
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 445
Originally Posted by SpeedyJason
Coming from an addict here, YES, we know what we're doing but our decision making is so muddled by the pull of the drugs that we're unable to get out of it until we lose pretty much everything. We (or at least I) feel so guilty for causing so many problems in our family that it actually continues the cycle because we use the drugs to mask the guilt. I believe that's what drives a lot of addicts to suicide. We're not just mean, heartless, scum (with the exception of abusive people, IMO) we do still have a brain that processes emotions, we're just unable to express it in a real way. Don't ever think addicts don't care... They do, the worst part of it is that
we realize what we're doing but don't have the will the stop it.
we realize what we're doing but don't have the will the stop it.
My BF shared with me one thing his Dr. has told him; as motivation to work on his issues, I probably can't say it exactly right, but it's something like:
"The feelings and the secrets that you keep deep inside; the ones you feel like you can't share with anyone; right now those are your demons; every time you try to suppress them, they lie low for a while but then they come back stronger and in return you reach for the coke to deal with it. You can't suppress them; you have to tear into them and break them apart; slowly over time in pieces that you can handle; and eventually whats left will will be so small it won't have any power over you. "
I don't know if that is true for everyone, but it makes sense to me; and he seems to be relating to it's premise.
And the other thing which has helped him is his dad; the person that he hurt the most from every angle; he has gracefully given him forgiveness.
So all that to say; I think the majority of addicts really do suffer their actions, but they are helpless against their addiction.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
My understanding of the brain disease of addiction is that once the switch is thrown, the motivational priorities of the brain (Dr. Drew's language) are severely altered. The lower brain--which is the primitive, non-emotional part of the brain which drives survival--overrides the higher brain, which is the part of us that feels empathy.
The addict has no empathy for others because that part of his brain is simply not what's operating.
There are other brain disorders which affect the ability to be empathic, the ability to care about the feelings of others. But I think people suffering from other disorders such as mania or severe ADHD or schizophrenia are more apt to evoke our understanding because their disorders are so evident. We see that they have a very obvious impairment of the brain by their very obvious inability to regulate themselves and, in some cases, by their complete breaks with reality.
Addicts are different. They are often--usually--able to hide their disease, to look good, to feign emotions they may not really be feeling, to manipulate their environments and those around them to the service of their addiction.
They get what they want because in so many cases they are so lovable. And we think they are operating with the same feelings and thoughts we operate with. We have no idea the addict-brain is calculating every move they make, even the loving moves, as to whether or not it will protect the addiction.
They protect the addiction because their survival instinct compels them to. Just as a hungry lion is compelled to hunt. It is all about survival.
There is little empathy in nature when survival is at stake. And the addict's mind tells him he has to have the drug no matter the consequences, to him or to anyone in his path.
This is my understanding from what I have heard the experts say.
When an addict is detoxed and stabilized and the lower brain stops controlling him and his higher brain is given an opportunity to step forward again, then we can see whether he is of noble character or base character. Until that happens, I don't think we can know.
I do know that many recovering addicts perform great deeds, selfless actions, for others. Maybe going to meetings and concentrating on spiritual growth helps their higher brain resume its duties. Maybe that is what Bill W. knew, in 1937, to change the future. That it is through service and selflessness that empathy returns to the addict.
My problem, as a codependent, is that even if I have this knowledge about the nature of addiction, my heart has been torn up by addicts, and scientific knowledge about the addict brain does not repair the damage to my heart.
The truth is, I need loving amends, to trust an addict again. I need consistent behavior. Consistent honesty. And the addict's interest in who I am. A genuine, compassionate interest in who I am.
Without that kind of amends, I don't know how I could ever open myself to a recovering addict who once hurt me in his addiction. I need his empathy, toward me.
The addict has no empathy for others because that part of his brain is simply not what's operating.
There are other brain disorders which affect the ability to be empathic, the ability to care about the feelings of others. But I think people suffering from other disorders such as mania or severe ADHD or schizophrenia are more apt to evoke our understanding because their disorders are so evident. We see that they have a very obvious impairment of the brain by their very obvious inability to regulate themselves and, in some cases, by their complete breaks with reality.
Addicts are different. They are often--usually--able to hide their disease, to look good, to feign emotions they may not really be feeling, to manipulate their environments and those around them to the service of their addiction.
They get what they want because in so many cases they are so lovable. And we think they are operating with the same feelings and thoughts we operate with. We have no idea the addict-brain is calculating every move they make, even the loving moves, as to whether or not it will protect the addiction.
They protect the addiction because their survival instinct compels them to. Just as a hungry lion is compelled to hunt. It is all about survival.
There is little empathy in nature when survival is at stake. And the addict's mind tells him he has to have the drug no matter the consequences, to him or to anyone in his path.
This is my understanding from what I have heard the experts say.
When an addict is detoxed and stabilized and the lower brain stops controlling him and his higher brain is given an opportunity to step forward again, then we can see whether he is of noble character or base character. Until that happens, I don't think we can know.
I do know that many recovering addicts perform great deeds, selfless actions, for others. Maybe going to meetings and concentrating on spiritual growth helps their higher brain resume its duties. Maybe that is what Bill W. knew, in 1937, to change the future. That it is through service and selflessness that empathy returns to the addict.
My problem, as a codependent, is that even if I have this knowledge about the nature of addiction, my heart has been torn up by addicts, and scientific knowledge about the addict brain does not repair the damage to my heart.
The truth is, I need loving amends, to trust an addict again. I need consistent behavior. Consistent honesty. And the addict's interest in who I am. A genuine, compassionate interest in who I am.
Without that kind of amends, I don't know how I could ever open myself to a recovering addict who once hurt me in his addiction. I need his empathy, toward me.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,384
I think it depends on the person. Some people were real jerks before they became addicts, and are going to be that way if they ever get into recovery. Same people were good people who got mixed up in the wrong thing. Some are really manipulative so that you think they are nice, when they just want something.
Clever Yak
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: ---
Posts: 4,360
Originally Posted by FindingJoy
Wash can you help me understand what you mean by "not having the will?"
This is how I think of "will". I don't really want to go workout tonight but I WILL go because I know it WILL make me feel better. So I will dig deep and just go although I really don't want to.
Thanks
This is how I think of "will". I don't really want to go workout tonight but I WILL go because I know it WILL make me feel better. So I will dig deep and just go although I really don't want to.
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 227
We had a speaker at my last families anonymous meeting. Before he spoke a new mom talked and shared her story. When it was time for the speaker to talk he was so welled up with emotion he had a hard time speaking. He was a heroin addict who had been clean since 2005. He speaks regularly at numerous AA/NA meetings. The reason he said he was so overcome with emotion was because hearing the pain us moms were in reminded him of all the heartache he had caused his family. It's the one thing he hasn't been able to come to terms with after all these years... Knowing how much he hurt is family.
Hearing this made me realize that addicts do regret their actions, but when they're in the clutches of their addiction they are powerless to their addiction... Nothing else matters beyond getting their next fix. Are there some who are just antisocial and incapable of true feelings? Sure. But I think, hope, that is the exception.
Hearing this made me realize that addicts do regret their actions, but when they're in the clutches of their addiction they are powerless to their addiction... Nothing else matters beyond getting their next fix. Are there some who are just antisocial and incapable of true feelings? Sure. But I think, hope, that is the exception.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
I can tell you that, yes, I did know how deep a hole I was digging myself into. However, I'd found a way to not deal with those feelings...get high! I was smoking crack 24/7, when I would come down, I'd be overwhelmed with where I'd gotten myself to...smoke crack, forget about it.
It wasn't until I'd hit enough bottoms, actually started working recovery that I felt the full impact of my actions. Heck, almost 5 years into recovery, I'm STILL dealing with consequences. Like ((Jay)) - said, it wasn't that we didn't care? We were just had one thing on our mind and that was using. My motto was always "I'll deal with that when I get clean, but not gonna happen today" and I'm, most certainly dealing with it.
I also know of people who are NOT A's and don't have a clue the damage they cause to people around them.
I've given up on waiting for the A's in my life to suddenly realize what they're doing to those of us who love them. They will or they won't. I just keep trying to work on me.
BTW, really glad you are removing yourself and your kids from this situation.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
It wasn't until I'd hit enough bottoms, actually started working recovery that I felt the full impact of my actions. Heck, almost 5 years into recovery, I'm STILL dealing with consequences. Like ((Jay)) - said, it wasn't that we didn't care? We were just had one thing on our mind and that was using. My motto was always "I'll deal with that when I get clean, but not gonna happen today" and I'm, most certainly dealing with it.
I also know of people who are NOT A's and don't have a clue the damage they cause to people around them.
I've given up on waiting for the A's in my life to suddenly realize what they're doing to those of us who love them. They will or they won't. I just keep trying to work on me.
BTW, really glad you are removing yourself and your kids from this situation.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 271
Impurrfect you make a great point there are people who are not As who are selfish, mean, filled with self hate, manipulative etc....
Bottom line what kind of people do we want in our lives? What character traits are dead breakers?
I'm trying to "get" something that I never will...every bit I do learn does help me heal. So difficult to understand how someone is just as a mess sober as drunk even while in AA, with a sponsor, therapist and psyche.
Bottom line what kind of people do we want in our lives? What character traits are dead breakers?
I'm trying to "get" something that I never will...every bit I do learn does help me heal. So difficult to understand how someone is just as a mess sober as drunk even while in AA, with a sponsor, therapist and psyche.
IsItAlright
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: rainbow
Posts: 157
It's really sad if they know that they are hurting people around them but they are just powerless and let all these happen.
I have sympathy on them even tho I'm so wounded and still hope that they'd wake up on day and change...
I actually wish to kill all my hope, so that I could just move on and never ever think about "what if he could be cured...", "what if he's not lying when he said that he really care about me"
I'm sad... I miss the person who was once so sweet to me and said that he just wanted me to be happy. I believed that he was just lost and he was struggling when he told me that he had hard time... I have empathy and I ran back to him... & then got hurt once again... when will I learn?
Sorry... I'm just emotional unstable again.
I have sympathy on them even tho I'm so wounded and still hope that they'd wake up on day and change...
I actually wish to kill all my hope, so that I could just move on and never ever think about "what if he could be cured...", "what if he's not lying when he said that he really care about me"
I'm sad... I miss the person who was once so sweet to me and said that he just wanted me to be happy. I believed that he was just lost and he was struggling when he told me that he had hard time... I have empathy and I ran back to him... & then got hurt once again... when will I learn?
Sorry... I'm just emotional unstable again.
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
Cunning, Baffling and Powerful is this disease of alcoholism and addiction. . .
I have a 35 year old step-daughter ~ beautiful, intelligent, articilate, loving mother of 3 children that are her world WHEN she is sober ~ when she is under the influence there is probably no limit to what she will do to obtain to feed that addiction. . .
I cannot fathom why she continues to relapse ~ I cannot explain why this grown woman sobs to me ~ "Ma, I so don't want to be like my dad (my exah) and never kick this thing; I want to be there for my kids"
I cannot explain to you why she just recently was in jail for the 5th or 6th time, now she is in rehab again for I can't remember how many times ~
I know I have had to detach; protect myself; her children have had to be protected from her; but I also know deep inside her some where is that little girl that I love so much and that truly doesn't want this life. Will she ever be free from this? Each passing day the chances grow more slim. . .
Does she know? I think she does and I believe she hates every minute of it; even if she never admits it . . .
PINK HUGS and prayers for all our loved ones still suffering and for us that are just trying to make it thru another day. . .
Rita
I have a 35 year old step-daughter ~ beautiful, intelligent, articilate, loving mother of 3 children that are her world WHEN she is sober ~ when she is under the influence there is probably no limit to what she will do to obtain to feed that addiction. . .
I cannot fathom why she continues to relapse ~ I cannot explain why this grown woman sobs to me ~ "Ma, I so don't want to be like my dad (my exah) and never kick this thing; I want to be there for my kids"
I cannot explain to you why she just recently was in jail for the 5th or 6th time, now she is in rehab again for I can't remember how many times ~
I know I have had to detach; protect myself; her children have had to be protected from her; but I also know deep inside her some where is that little girl that I love so much and that truly doesn't want this life. Will she ever be free from this? Each passing day the chances grow more slim. . .
Does she know? I think she does and I believe she hates every minute of it; even if she never admits it . . .
PINK HUGS and prayers for all our loved ones still suffering and for us that are just trying to make it thru another day. . .
Rita
Linkin Park Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 548
My boyfriend hates himself for what he is doing. He plays it off like he blames me for everything, but you can tell he is starting to get what he is doing. He is totally wrong, and we all know it.
But he won't admit it. I know he tells everyone else how wrong he is, but he never tells me. And he needs to, because I am the one he hurts the most. And I am the one who loves him the most. But you know what, he is making me hate him for the things he continues to do to me.
But that is okay. I am much better at hating people than loving them. And I have been fighting with myself for a long time with him between love and hate. Now, I gave up. It's just all hate. And it's not going to last forever, and I know that it's just the addiction I hate and not HIM, but I am going to continue to feel this way to make sure that he doesn't hurt me again. Because he knows he is doing it, but it's not enough for him to stop, so I have to protect myself.
But he won't admit it. I know he tells everyone else how wrong he is, but he never tells me. And he needs to, because I am the one he hurts the most. And I am the one who loves him the most. But you know what, he is making me hate him for the things he continues to do to me.
But that is okay. I am much better at hating people than loving them. And I have been fighting with myself for a long time with him between love and hate. Now, I gave up. It's just all hate. And it's not going to last forever, and I know that it's just the addiction I hate and not HIM, but I am going to continue to feel this way to make sure that he doesn't hurt me again. Because he knows he is doing it, but it's not enough for him to stop, so I have to protect myself.
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