the need to hit bottom?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
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the need to hit bottom?
I watched that HBO addiction documentary last night. I thought it was interesting that a number of the experts interviewed said they didn't think that the addict had to hit bottom, that they thought that the sooner the addicts get help, the better.
I think that there is something to that, it does make sense in a way. I mean, we don't say to people with other diseases that their illness has to get to be as bad as possible before they can start recovering from it.
Also, there was a guy that mentioned that he thought it was crazy that addicts got thrown out of treatment programs for slips. He said something along the lines of: they are acting like people with the disease they have got so why toss them out of treatment for that? In other words--relapse is a part of the disease and should be expected and should not exclude someone from treatment.
I think that listening to these various experts was really eye opening. I would definitely recommend it to all of us dealing with addicts of all types. I do with though that they had touched on those of us around the addict, the enablers, the codependents.
I think that there is something to that, it does make sense in a way. I mean, we don't say to people with other diseases that their illness has to get to be as bad as possible before they can start recovering from it.
Also, there was a guy that mentioned that he thought it was crazy that addicts got thrown out of treatment programs for slips. He said something along the lines of: they are acting like people with the disease they have got so why toss them out of treatment for that? In other words--relapse is a part of the disease and should be expected and should not exclude someone from treatment.
I think that listening to these various experts was really eye opening. I would definitely recommend it to all of us dealing with addicts of all types. I do with though that they had touched on those of us around the addict, the enablers, the codependents.
grateful rca
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: atlanta, ga.
Posts: 4,671
i think that a bottom depend on individuality. everyones bottom is not the same. i didn't watch the special so i guess i just want you to know that i do support you, i'll have to keep check on your responses, interesting thread, i think.
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
I read a book, "Broken" written by William Cope Myers who is the Vice President of something for Hazeldon who thinks the same thing. His parents
picked him up everytime and dragged him back to rehab until he got it.
He finally did. He talks about this same thing a lot. It made a lot of sense
to me....
picked him up everytime and dragged him back to rehab until he got it.
He finally did. He talks about this same thing a lot. It made a lot of sense
to me....
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Tawas, MI
Posts: 3,683
That confuses me too and it is not the first time that I have heard that addicts don't need to be let to hit bottom. If you watch the TV series Intervention they also mention that. But if the addict refuses to go to treatment on the show, the interventionist advises the friends and family to let the addict know that they are done with them. I know with my daughter that she will have to hit some kind of a bottom because my help has not helped and has only served to drive a deeper wedge between us. I think the program should have gotten more into the specifics of how not to let them hit bottom rather than just to make a blanket statement like that. I hate it when anyone assumes that they know what is best for us or for our addicts. Show me the proof, don't just make the statement. That is my opinion. Also, I would like to have that kind of money where I could continue to drag my addict to rehab after rehab, but in the real world that is not always possible. Marle
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Done, The Moyers family had the money and the resources to do that. And he finally wanted help. Suppose he had continued to use crack for the next twenty years. I do believe that they would have eventually let him go. Marle
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
Yea, I do know that, that's why I have never posted anything about it. Most people don't have the kind of money they have.... I just brought it up, because it was mentioned..... I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, I just see both sides as having good points...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texarkana, Texas
Posts: 585
YOu know, I have to throw this out there. Of course, me never having an addiction (except cigarettes years ago, I quit at 19), i guess I don't understand. The thing about relapse. If the addict cuts all their ties to their user friends an dealers, and they are attending meetings etc. and then they relapse.........it's not like the stuff grows on trees (I'm not talking about alcohol here...that is a drug sold legally everywhere). In order for an addict to "relapse" they have to consciously seek out the drug, get the utensils to use it, and find a place to use. It all seems very conscious and thought-out to me. Like they MAKE THE CHOICE to use again. Especially if they have been clean for a while so the physical withdrawal symptoms are gone.
All you former addicts need to straighten me out here if I am overstepping any boundaries or stepping on toes!
All you former addicts need to straighten me out here if I am overstepping any boundaries or stepping on toes!
Get Caught Reading
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Not in the boonies, thank God
Posts: 1,410
I'm reading the book, "Addiction". It's based on the hbo series.
Haven't gotten to that part of it yet. I'm still focusing on how the different drugs, affect different parts of the brain, and the damage that is done to the brain. It's a good read. I'd recommend it to everyone.
(((Done))) My son has the book "Broken". He has a whole slew of addiction and recovery books. (He hasn't read them as much as I would like. codie talk. lol) Good 'ol mom sells'em.
Anvil- your so right. Hugs.
Haven't gotten to that part of it yet. I'm still focusing on how the different drugs, affect different parts of the brain, and the damage that is done to the brain. It's a good read. I'd recommend it to everyone.
(((Done))) My son has the book "Broken". He has a whole slew of addiction and recovery books. (He hasn't read them as much as I would like. codie talk. lol) Good 'ol mom sells'em.
Anvil- your so right. Hugs.
Get Caught Reading
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Not in the boonies, thank God
Posts: 1,410
tropik,
it's the brain that makes that choice. The addicted diseased brain. Not the person. The brain thinks all these things through way before the body actually goes into the "gotta get it now" mode.
It's the most powerfully built machine in the world...the human brain.
If you listen to it...it can lead you wrong.
it's the brain that makes that choice. The addicted diseased brain. Not the person. The brain thinks all these things through way before the body actually goes into the "gotta get it now" mode.
It's the most powerfully built machine in the world...the human brain.
If you listen to it...it can lead you wrong.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: limbo
Posts: 2,849
I have been going over and over the "choice" issue myself and I honestly can't decide what I feel about this.................
My ah tells me that even as he's planning, he doesnt realise he's planning and he's having "stupid thoughts" but is sure up to the minute he does it just about that ........he's not going to use.
This is insane to me which I guess is why the term insanity is used so often...........and after a relapse like this I just looked at him and said..........really so when you drove out to your friends to get money or you went to the bank or when you drove our car to the crack dealer on the nearest corner you could find .............what you were just "thinking about it? BULL!!!
But I'm angry right now......................so my opinion isnt objective......
My ah tells me that even as he's planning, he doesnt realise he's planning and he's having "stupid thoughts" but is sure up to the minute he does it just about that ........he's not going to use.
This is insane to me which I guess is why the term insanity is used so often...........and after a relapse like this I just looked at him and said..........really so when you drove out to your friends to get money or you went to the bank or when you drove our car to the crack dealer on the nearest corner you could find .............what you were just "thinking about it? BULL!!!
But I'm angry right now......................so my opinion isnt objective......
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
My daughter went to a 2-day assessment, 2 month outpaitent, 1 month inpatient, 2 month out patient, 1 month inpatient, 2 months recovery house, 3 day inpatient, and 1 month inpatient.
This took place from February 2004 to April 2005.
I do not regret even ONE of those attempts at recovery.... and she relapsed during or after every single one. Each one brought she, and ME, something new. We learned together to identify and breakthough delusion and denial... for ourselves and for those we were looking out at. Recovery is a process... sometimes a LOOONNNNNGGGG process.
But she has been sober 2 years. Without a program - which scares me - but something has changed in her life. I am glad she had the opportunities to go to rehab, and the fortitude to take back something with her.
The idea of early and continued "intervention" (I use the term loosely) is interesting to me. Sometimes, I think the drugs and booze take a person down beyond their ability to make changes... or to even think clearly enough to know what they want. Those of us closest know best when those times might be.
((Hugs))
This took place from February 2004 to April 2005.
I do not regret even ONE of those attempts at recovery.... and she relapsed during or after every single one. Each one brought she, and ME, something new. We learned together to identify and breakthough delusion and denial... for ourselves and for those we were looking out at. Recovery is a process... sometimes a LOOONNNNNGGGG process.
But she has been sober 2 years. Without a program - which scares me - but something has changed in her life. I am glad she had the opportunities to go to rehab, and the fortitude to take back something with her.
The idea of early and continued "intervention" (I use the term loosely) is interesting to me. Sometimes, I think the drugs and booze take a person down beyond their ability to make changes... or to even think clearly enough to know what they want. Those of us closest know best when those times might be.
((Hugs))
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FREE!!!! Somewhere in the Tennessee Mountains
Posts: 1,018
Early intervention is interesting to me, too. If it was one of my kids in trouble, I know enough now to try it. But with AH, it's a bridge that was burned long ago. When it might have had some effect on him, I didn't have a clue. Or the money, if I would've had a clue.
At this point, it is not all about his recovery, although I pray that will happen. It's about my sanity and ability to care for my son. AH is spiraling out of control by the day but I cannot help him. I can only help me.
I have to agree with Marle:
I guess what I'm trying to say is, the experts can say whatever they want but every situation is different. At this point, hitting bottom is the only place left for my AH to go and I believe the only chance he has left.
It's easy for someone on the outside of my life to tell me what I 'ought' to do for him. I have one of those on my hands-I call him 'Mr. Clean'. I'd love to just wave a magic wand and let that dude live the life I lived with AH for about 24 hours. He would run screaming into the night!
At this point, it is not all about his recovery, although I pray that will happen. It's about my sanity and ability to care for my son. AH is spiraling out of control by the day but I cannot help him. I can only help me.
I have to agree with Marle:
Originally Posted by marle 
Show me the proof, don't just make the statement. That is my opinion. Also, I would like to have that kind of money where I could continue to drag my addict to rehab after rehab, but in the real world that is not always possible.
It's easy for someone on the outside of my life to tell me what I 'ought' to do for him. I have one of those on my hands-I call him 'Mr. Clean'. I'd love to just wave a magic wand and let that dude live the life I lived with AH for about 24 hours. He would run screaming into the night!
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
diversity
From my understanding and experience, no one "let's" or allows an addict to hit bottom...addicts dig for the bottom. What I believe needs to be understood is that getting help and receiving help are two totally different animals. What is seen as a bottom for one addict isn't always seen as a bottom for another, so the concept of "as bad as possible" is vague and over-generalized. As a recovering addict, I've learned that the gift of desperation is what brings most addicts into long-term recovery. An addict can be reasoned with, counseled, threatened, beaten, jailed, prayed over and abandoned...but they will not stop until they are ready to stop.
Relapse is a reality, but it certainly isn't a requirement for recovery. There is no such thing as a "justifiable relapse" and addicts who are enrolled in a treatment program (and they use) become a threat to the recovery of other enrolled patients. That's why they get tossed out. Relapse is never by accident, so those who choose to relapse demonstrate that they aren't ready to stop and should be excluded from treatment. Unlike cancer, diabetes or some other incurable disease, once an addict has been in treatment and is no longer physically addicted to a substance, they are empowered with CHOICE and can't use "I have a disease!" as an excuse for ignorance or unwillingness.
Although I didn't watch the HBO documentary, I'm very familiar with the opinions of so-called "experts" on addiction, treatment and recovery. With almost 9 years clean and having been through numerous treatment facilities, in hindsight, I must admit that each time I got rejected, tossed out, denied and/or successfully completed a program...I learned a little bit more. Most of us who have reached a point of some successful recovery will admit that we had to go through all that we did in order to get to where we are.
Relapse is a reality, but it certainly isn't a requirement for recovery. There is no such thing as a "justifiable relapse" and addicts who are enrolled in a treatment program (and they use) become a threat to the recovery of other enrolled patients. That's why they get tossed out. Relapse is never by accident, so those who choose to relapse demonstrate that they aren't ready to stop and should be excluded from treatment. Unlike cancer, diabetes or some other incurable disease, once an addict has been in treatment and is no longer physically addicted to a substance, they are empowered with CHOICE and can't use "I have a disease!" as an excuse for ignorance or unwillingness.
Although I didn't watch the HBO documentary, I'm very familiar with the opinions of so-called "experts" on addiction, treatment and recovery. With almost 9 years clean and having been through numerous treatment facilities, in hindsight, I must admit that each time I got rejected, tossed out, denied and/or successfully completed a program...I learned a little bit more. Most of us who have reached a point of some successful recovery will admit that we had to go through all that we did in order to get to where we are.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: S.E. Mich.
Posts: 1,433
The bottom, or a bottom, is essentially the point where the addict decides, help and recovery is the better choice than continued abuse. And yes the sooner the better, but most often the addict needs to be ready and willing to accept the help otherwise we just go through the motions. There is no specified bottom though, it's individual.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: somewhere in MA
Posts: 54
"Sometimes, I think the drugs and booze take a person down beyond their ability to make changes..." I agree with BigSis here ^^ Sometimes permenently.
My ex would have to crawl up a ways to hit bottom!
Do you suppose people with obbsessive/compulsive disorder, can just *Choose* NOT to keep washing their hands over and over?
JSM
My ex would have to crawl up a ways to hit bottom!
Do you suppose people with obbsessive/compulsive disorder, can just *Choose* NOT to keep washing their hands over and over?
JSM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texarkana, Texas
Posts: 585
joesentme: I learned something interesting while my hubby was inpatient--that people with OCD are more prone to be addicts. He is OCD, and it used to be worse when he was younger. His manifests itself in hand-washing and repetitive thoughts, also he is "smell-obsessed" (highly sensitive to smells) He said he used to have the "counting" thing when he was a kid and the "ritual" thing. I guess he grew out of that beacuse I've only seen him do it once or twice and that was many years ago.
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FREE!!!! Somewhere in the Tennessee Mountains
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Originally Posted by GarryW
From my understanding and experience, no one "let's" or allows an addict to hit bottom...addicts dig for the bottom........ . Most of us who have reached a point of some successful recovery will admit that we had to go through all that we did in order to get to where we are.
I just wanted to thank you for this insight. I finally filed for divorce several weeks ago after 25 years with my husband. It is very hard to watch someone that I have spent so many years with, and loved very much at one time, spiraling deeper and deeper. Having an 'expert' say that it is not the 'right' thing to do just adds to the pain.
Happy Easter!
Dreamer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 81
I believe that bottom is way different for everyone. My ex's bottom hasn't quite happened yet, obviously b/c he's still hanging out w/ dealers and is thinking of going back to selling after he's only been sober about a month. I called his best friend, if you can still call him that, and he put my ex into rehab. But since it wasn't really my ex's decision to go I think that he was just going through the motions for everyone else and not for himself.
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Honestly, I think you can hit bottom despite having a physically comfortable situation. just the fact that you spend all your money, or lost your license, or are at the mercy of another person's charity could be the bottom for some people.
I know my abf talks a lot lately about feeling emasculated because of his ongoing inability to take care of himself. well...DUH, if you spend all your money on drinking and using, and you still want a warm place to sleep, then you have to be a down and out 38 year old living in your parents basement. I think that dynamic--the pain it causes his ego and such like is worse than if he was tossed out and living on the streets. If you were once proud of your ability to earn good money, take care of yourself, have an independent life, and then you have to sit at home getting the minimum from your parents and have everyone sit around pitying you and you can't even come and go on your own and you have to beg borrow and steal from every one just to buy a cup of coffee, well that could very well be bottom.
I think we often think of bottom as a physical thing -- they are homeless, they are constantly ill, but it can be purely psychological, so it looks like the addict is still comfortable and you figure he hasn't hit bottom, but he could very well be getting there despite diner on the table every night at 6 and a hot shower every morning.
I know my abf talks a lot lately about feeling emasculated because of his ongoing inability to take care of himself. well...DUH, if you spend all your money on drinking and using, and you still want a warm place to sleep, then you have to be a down and out 38 year old living in your parents basement. I think that dynamic--the pain it causes his ego and such like is worse than if he was tossed out and living on the streets. If you were once proud of your ability to earn good money, take care of yourself, have an independent life, and then you have to sit at home getting the minimum from your parents and have everyone sit around pitying you and you can't even come and go on your own and you have to beg borrow and steal from every one just to buy a cup of coffee, well that could very well be bottom.
I think we often think of bottom as a physical thing -- they are homeless, they are constantly ill, but it can be purely psychological, so it looks like the addict is still comfortable and you figure he hasn't hit bottom, but he could very well be getting there despite diner on the table every night at 6 and a hot shower every morning.
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