Change the locks?
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
I'm curious, Jess, when you started this thread, what type of help were you hoping that we could offer? Everyone here is doing their best to help you. You say you're hearing what folks are saying, but it doesn't look that way to me. You say your children are fine, but I'd wager that they're not.
If you were referring to me as one of the people whose SO found a path to recovery and who are now leading happy lives, let me throw this in the mix:
Richard did not reach sobriety until I took the following life-changing actions:
1) I threw him out of my home and ended the relationship
2) I stopped my enabling behavior
3) I stopped coming to his rescue
4) I stopped making excuses for his inappropriate behavior
5) I stopped making excuses for my inappropriate behavior
6) I stopped living in denial and began to see the truth about my life
7) I stopped focusing on his actions and began to focus on my life, my actions, and the part I played in the chaos
Until you're willing to go outside your comfort zone and take some life-changing actions, you will remain in the same place you've been stuck in for the last two years.
Let me also toss this out for your consideration, could it be possible that the reason you repeatedly invite chaos into your life is that it gets you attention and makes people feel sorry for you?
Until you determine the reason why you repeatedly invite chaos into your life, you're not likely to move forward. I would love to see a happy ending for you and G, too, but you have to be willing to work for that happy ending. And that involves making some hard choices, stepping out of your comfort zone, and taking a leap of faith--faith that G will be able to reach sobriety and get his life in order. But he can't do that as long as you're standing in his way.
If you were referring to me as one of the people whose SO found a path to recovery and who are now leading happy lives, let me throw this in the mix:
Richard did not reach sobriety until I took the following life-changing actions:
1) I threw him out of my home and ended the relationship
2) I stopped my enabling behavior
3) I stopped coming to his rescue
4) I stopped making excuses for his inappropriate behavior
5) I stopped making excuses for my inappropriate behavior
6) I stopped living in denial and began to see the truth about my life
7) I stopped focusing on his actions and began to focus on my life, my actions, and the part I played in the chaos
Until you're willing to go outside your comfort zone and take some life-changing actions, you will remain in the same place you've been stuck in for the last two years.
Let me also toss this out for your consideration, could it be possible that the reason you repeatedly invite chaos into your life is that it gets you attention and makes people feel sorry for you?
Until you determine the reason why you repeatedly invite chaos into your life, you're not likely to move forward. I would love to see a happy ending for you and G, too, but you have to be willing to work for that happy ending. And that involves making some hard choices, stepping out of your comfort zone, and taking a leap of faith--faith that G will be able to reach sobriety and get his life in order. But he can't do that as long as you're standing in his way.
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,412
And that involves making some hard choices, stepping out of your comfort zone, and taking a leap of faith--faith that G will be able to reach sobriety and get his life in order. But he can't do that as long as you're standing in his way.
Procrastinator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 76
I feel like this poor girl is danged if she does and danged if she doesn't. It doesn't matter either way if she says she DOES understand what everyone here is trying to say or if she DOESN'T understand what everyone is saying, she'll still be judged. Everyone here at one time or another has slipped. Ok ok maybe not everyone, but I sure have. I've gone down this road before, thinking things would change, allowing him back home. Bad choices? You bet. But they were my choices and I had to learn those mistakes. JMHO.
Jess, you will learn too. It's unfortunate but you probably haven't hit your "bottom" yet. I'm sorry that things are so difficult for you, I really am. Its a stinky situation but you know that you have the power to get out of it if you really want to.
Now, if I had to turn back time and treat you as a newbie (and I know you said it was a joke) but if I did have to treat you like one, I'd simply say to look at your signature quote. I actually cut and pasted that quote from you when I first saw it. I keep a little journal of quotes from SR that have helped me and yours was one of the first ones on it. Best of luck and please keep posting. xoxoxoxo
Jess, you will learn too. It's unfortunate but you probably haven't hit your "bottom" yet. I'm sorry that things are so difficult for you, I really am. Its a stinky situation but you know that you have the power to get out of it if you really want to.
Now, if I had to turn back time and treat you as a newbie (and I know you said it was a joke) but if I did have to treat you like one, I'd simply say to look at your signature quote. I actually cut and pasted that quote from you when I first saw it. I keep a little journal of quotes from SR that have helped me and yours was one of the first ones on it. Best of luck and please keep posting. xoxoxoxo
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
Thank you getting free! We are here to offer uncondional support, love and kindness. This is supposed to be a SAFE place! Wherever we are at. I am ashamed of the way Jess is being treated and talked to. Please, Jess, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Lord, girl, how could I judge you????? Only with hypocrisy.....I returned to an abusive alcoholic relationship time and time and time again. And even my domestic violence counselor would not have said to me many of the things that have been said to you here.
All are equals. None better or worse than another.
The foundation of a healing dialogue is RESPECT. No one has the right to take your judgment and handling of your situation from you. That is demeaning and condesending. And that is not the way love is demonstrated.
Nor can I call it helpful support.
You are brave and determined. If I had been talked to this way, I would have never "darkened this doorway" again.
I kept going back for 5 years.....and I was being emotionally and physically abused.
When we speak from a "superior" position, it is in service to our own ego. Nothing more or less.
I was finished when I was finished, not when other people thought I should be....for five years.
I just felt more isolated and misunderstood.
Compassion ought to be the key response. Therefore I understand your asking to be a newbie, altho that is not possible.
But LOOK dear at all those trying to CONTROL YOU. And ask, who is sick.
ALL of us.
I have super respect for Ngaire. And because I know her....I know her heart is in the right place. She suffered this. She wishes to pass on her hard earned knowledge and experience.
But, everyone of us, if we were honest, would admit that we waffled back and forth, confused, leaving and coming back.
I urge you and all responding to go to Women In Recovery and read tactics of an abuser.
One of the things you, we, I will see is that someone else undermines our ability to think for ourselves and make us feel that we are less than or unable to think for ourselves. THIS is abuse.
I personally think Jess is being abused in this thread.
That is unacceptable. PERIOD.
Further, I see so much hypocrisy. There are many here who are in abusive and/or alcoholic relationships and we give them understanding and support and kindness.
Go back....each of us....to examine our own issues....as it seems to me that we are being triggered here and instead of looking within, we are codie-ing Jess to death.
There is NO place for judgment here. There is no place for superiority here.
There is no place for controlling Jess here.
Jess, you want to ask me how long I returned time and time again to both an alcoholic and abusive man? Five years.
Many here have done it for twenty years.
And, if I may, if there was a boundary to be set,....I would set it here even before I set one with G.
That is your business.
And for all the other responses....hindsight is 20/20. However we live in today, choose and cope as we may today.
I am on a soapbox and I mean it.
Let's all work on our own issues instead of Jessica's.
Stop thinging for her...that is condescinding. Get off her back.
Many of you "trust" in a higher power. Then let that trust extend to Jessica.
Any mistakes we make can be learned lessons.
Extend the courtesy. Be civil.
Don't know how to be civil? I can recommend an important book.
Jessica, I am sorry you are having to fight this confusing battle both at home and here. Sincerely sorry.
And in the words of one of my favorite Peter Gabriel/Paula Cole songs....don't give up.
hugs,
live
Lord, girl, how could I judge you????? Only with hypocrisy.....I returned to an abusive alcoholic relationship time and time and time again. And even my domestic violence counselor would not have said to me many of the things that have been said to you here.
All are equals. None better or worse than another.
The foundation of a healing dialogue is RESPECT. No one has the right to take your judgment and handling of your situation from you. That is demeaning and condesending. And that is not the way love is demonstrated.
Nor can I call it helpful support.
You are brave and determined. If I had been talked to this way, I would have never "darkened this doorway" again.
I kept going back for 5 years.....and I was being emotionally and physically abused.
When we speak from a "superior" position, it is in service to our own ego. Nothing more or less.
I was finished when I was finished, not when other people thought I should be....for five years.
I just felt more isolated and misunderstood.
Compassion ought to be the key response. Therefore I understand your asking to be a newbie, altho that is not possible.
But LOOK dear at all those trying to CONTROL YOU. And ask, who is sick.
ALL of us.
I have super respect for Ngaire. And because I know her....I know her heart is in the right place. She suffered this. She wishes to pass on her hard earned knowledge and experience.
But, everyone of us, if we were honest, would admit that we waffled back and forth, confused, leaving and coming back.
I urge you and all responding to go to Women In Recovery and read tactics of an abuser.
One of the things you, we, I will see is that someone else undermines our ability to think for ourselves and make us feel that we are less than or unable to think for ourselves. THIS is abuse.
I personally think Jess is being abused in this thread.
That is unacceptable. PERIOD.
Further, I see so much hypocrisy. There are many here who are in abusive and/or alcoholic relationships and we give them understanding and support and kindness.
Go back....each of us....to examine our own issues....as it seems to me that we are being triggered here and instead of looking within, we are codie-ing Jess to death.
There is NO place for judgment here. There is no place for superiority here.
There is no place for controlling Jess here.
Jess, you want to ask me how long I returned time and time again to both an alcoholic and abusive man? Five years.
Many here have done it for twenty years.
And, if I may, if there was a boundary to be set,....I would set it here even before I set one with G.
That is your business.
And for all the other responses....hindsight is 20/20. However we live in today, choose and cope as we may today.
I am on a soapbox and I mean it.
Let's all work on our own issues instead of Jessica's.
Stop thinging for her...that is condescinding. Get off her back.
Many of you "trust" in a higher power. Then let that trust extend to Jessica.
Any mistakes we make can be learned lessons.
Extend the courtesy. Be civil.
Don't know how to be civil? I can recommend an important book.
Jessica, I am sorry you are having to fight this confusing battle both at home and here. Sincerely sorry.
And in the words of one of my favorite Peter Gabriel/Paula Cole songs....don't give up.
hugs,
live
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Lord, girl, how could I judge you????? Only with hypocrisy
The way I see it is everyone who replied to Jessica did so with the intention of helping her. Each of us is unique, as are our communication styles and life experiences, and the responses you see in this thread are as diverse as we are.
You say "we here to offer unconditional support, love, and kindness," but do you only extend that to posts you agree with or people you know well? You said there was an air of superiority in many of the responses to this thread, but I see the same air of superiority in the way you berated the way others who responded.
I'd like to also take this opportunity to say that calling folks "codies" when you disagree with their opinion or actions, which I've observed with increasing frequency on this forum lately, does not fit into my definition of "unconditional support, love, and kindness." It's meant as a criticism and it has to stop now.
If we can't post a simple list of things that we think others might find useful in this forum without being told our post is worthless and if we can't respond to posts in a open and honest manner without of fear of being called "superior," "judgmental," or a "codie," if we can't be ourselves and not what others on this forum expect of us, then what's the purpose of this forum?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
First....I will NOT dignify the statement that Jess had me post this.If I did I would be rude. Very rude. Stick it in your pipe and smoke it. That is minor rude.
As I cannot see the other statements, being in advanced reply...I will have to review what has been said...and as Arnie said....I will be back.
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,681
I see a lot of posts with criticism in this thread.
If we share our own experience without telling someone what they should do they have a choice to use what helps them. Asking someone if they only come here to attention seek is criticism. Telling someone they will only get the same answers that they always get is criticism. Maybe they need different answers. I know I wasn't typical and the answers I needed were very different than most. I found my answers by reading other's experience here. They made suggestions, but never told me what I should do. They accepted me when I went against their suggestions. It was the love they gave me that gave me the strength to move forward. It was reading what they did that gave me strength to do it too.
Recovery comes from within. If it doesn't come from within you can make all the choices and take all the action in the world and you will run right back into yourself down the line.
Awareness-Acceptance-Action
Action is last on the list. If I can't take the action then I am probably missing the first 2 A's. Every time I learn something new I repeat this process.
If we share our own experience without telling someone what they should do they have a choice to use what helps them. Asking someone if they only come here to attention seek is criticism. Telling someone they will only get the same answers that they always get is criticism. Maybe they need different answers. I know I wasn't typical and the answers I needed were very different than most. I found my answers by reading other's experience here. They made suggestions, but never told me what I should do. They accepted me when I went against their suggestions. It was the love they gave me that gave me the strength to move forward. It was reading what they did that gave me strength to do it too.
Recovery comes from within. If it doesn't come from within you can make all the choices and take all the action in the world and you will run right back into yourself down the line.
Awareness-Acceptance-Action
Action is last on the list. If I can't take the action then I am probably missing the first 2 A's. Every time I learn something new I repeat this process.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
Not in the mood for a debate.
I thought we are all here because we are codies or recovering codies. I am.
Everytime I read Codependence No More and Beyond Codependence....I learn more about understanding who I am and how others are. I am not the only codie. And codies try to control others. By numerous means.
This is Jessica's thread....ask her if she is feeling helped or beaten up.
Ask her how she feels about the responses.....if they support her recovery or make her feel judged and alienated.
I feel no more guilty for setting boundaries than Anna has in the Newcomer forum to the I am not sure if I want to recover thread (may not be exact, but can be found with that reference.)
I see the same dynamics here.
For tonight, I am going to take care of me first....drink a large glass of milk and go to bed and not worry my head about this.
Tomorrow is a new day.
At this point I am not willing to retract anything I have said.
Perhaps tomorrow I will have the wisdom to say it better.
I thought we are all here because we are codies or recovering codies. I am.
Everytime I read Codependence No More and Beyond Codependence....I learn more about understanding who I am and how others are. I am not the only codie. And codies try to control others. By numerous means.
This is Jessica's thread....ask her if she is feeling helped or beaten up.
Ask her how she feels about the responses.....if they support her recovery or make her feel judged and alienated.
I feel no more guilty for setting boundaries than Anna has in the Newcomer forum to the I am not sure if I want to recover thread (may not be exact, but can be found with that reference.)
I see the same dynamics here.
For tonight, I am going to take care of me first....drink a large glass of milk and go to bed and not worry my head about this.
Tomorrow is a new day.
At this point I am not willing to retract anything I have said.
Perhaps tomorrow I will have the wisdom to say it better.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I can't help but wonder whether some of the feelings that get raised are related to the difference between feedback and criticism, the first being nuetral and the second value laiden.
I don't know what all the answers are but I do know there's not much to be gained when anyone feels ganged up on - from experience of it, it's a horrible feeling that gets in the way of hearing what's said.
There's something I often find hard to do but I've got a feeling that it's a good thing, that's to try and understand the other's point of view BEFORE wanting them to see mine! (I'd know when I'm not really doing it because I'd be thinking 'Ah yes, that's what ....... is doing wrong - rather than just looking to see how I could better see things from their viewpoint.).
I don't know what all the answers are but I do know there's not much to be gained when anyone feels ganged up on - from experience of it, it's a horrible feeling that gets in the way of hearing what's said.
There's something I often find hard to do but I've got a feeling that it's a good thing, that's to try and understand the other's point of view BEFORE wanting them to see mine! (I'd know when I'm not really doing it because I'd be thinking 'Ah yes, that's what ....... is doing wrong - rather than just looking to see how I could better see things from their viewpoint.).
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake Luzerne
Posts: 1,786
"not much gained when someone fels ganged up on", Isn't that what an intervention is? I don't think anyone would get so stirred up if children weren't involved. I'm a direct person, if I've plucked you off the train tracks ten times and you are still determined to sit there, I may yank you off the tracks. When children are at risk, people do and say whatever it takes to change the situation. It is my opinion that if I don't need advice or ant advice, I dont ask for it. When you open the door to the public, thats who walks in. No one here gave any coment that wasn;t invited. For those who took the time to comment, they don't want to here how stupid they are, they don't want to be called names. It is very insulting to speak to a room full of people married to alcoholics and tell them they don't understand. There is an array of advice here to choose from. My conviction in this matter is that SOMEONE needs to advocate for this womans children. I just pulled a 12 year old out of the local swimming hole and we were not able to revive him. People didn't start off with Jessica being so blunt and direct, they have been driven to it.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I just pulled a 12 year old out of the local swimming hole and we were not able to revive him.
It is a very different situation to this though - I don't think we can start thinking that we are driven to post in a certain way in order to save the lives of children in response to someone having their husband/children's father stay with them while he's drinking at the weekend. I haven't seen anything in this thread about violence or abuse towards the children.
I grew up in a crappy but non-alcoholic home, I'm still here, very much alive, thriving and happy.
It is different from a drowning child - both in what we can see and know and in what we can realistically do. I can understand though why you would feel so strongly right now - I am really sorry that you've just witnessed a child's death.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by liveweyerd
First....I will NOT dignify the statement that Jess had me post this.If I did I would be rude. Very rude. Stick it in your pipe and smoke it. That is minor rude.
As I cannot see the other statements, being in advanced reply...I will have to review what has been said...and as Arnie said....I will be back.
My point, which I chose to keep brief - Jessica (and everyone else on this forum) is an adult. I would hope if she (or anyone else) has a problem with something I post they will let me know. Of course, I would love if the wording they used didn't include "stick it in your pipe and smoke it." But even then I learn. A LOT.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
I agree with Jill (FD) on every point.
You know there are things that happen in my life that I don't post here.
Why?
Because I KNOW the answer already.
I don't want to hear it from others.
If I know I will hear it then it must be so....
Cake is wonderful I love it....but it comes with a price..calories
You can't have your cake and eat it too....
Grow up people....this is life....life is hard....
truth is harder.....
don't post if it makes you uncomfortable....
not everything has to be shared on a forum...
especially things that you already know the answer to...
and just not want to hear it from others....
You know there are things that happen in my life that I don't post here.
Why?
Because I KNOW the answer already.
I don't want to hear it from others.
If I know I will hear it then it must be so....
Cake is wonderful I love it....but it comes with a price..calories
You can't have your cake and eat it too....
Grow up people....this is life....life is hard....
truth is harder.....
don't post if it makes you uncomfortable....
not everything has to be shared on a forum...
especially things that you already know the answer to...
and just not want to hear it from others....
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,412
Man o man--- I hope this does not continue to become a debate about "tact." Honesty is the value of this forum IMO and we are all individuals that express ourselves differently. I personally do not feel that anyone on this board has forgotten the place of pain which led them here. I truly think that we all have good intentions. I absolutely believe that NO ONE here ever wishes any ill on Jess!! It really is simple--- take what you need and leave the rest. Becoming combative towards each other serves no productive purpose whatsoever IMO. I don't like this "us" against "them" mentality that we've seen so much of lately. That's just me...
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
Mega you are still new here....IMO
Sometimes you can hear over and over again the same thing
it gets old....
I don't think anyone wishes Ill on Jess why would you even think
such a thing...
After 2 years and so much progress it is hard to see such regression.
I don't know I am more sad than anything else about what Jess posted.
I wish her nothing but the best.
Sometimes you can hear over and over again the same thing
it gets old....
I don't think anyone wishes Ill on Jess why would you even think
such a thing...
After 2 years and so much progress it is hard to see such regression.
I don't know I am more sad than anything else about what Jess posted.
I wish her nothing but the best.
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,412
I absolutely believe that NO ONE here ever wishes any ill on Jess!!
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