Seren

The stories, like SparkleKitty's, are much more common in children raised in homes where one parent is an active alcoholic. I'm sorry to say the turmoil for them on into their adulthood is very real. I was raised by a woman (my mom) who was one of those children, and her mental health issues affected my sister and I as well, even though we are one generation removed from active alcoholism.

dandylion

Bidg------I think that one of the best places to learn the realities-----the facts----about the consequences of living in a home with one alcoholic parent---is to read the literature of the organization
"Adult Children of Alcoholics" ACOA. The damage is so pervasive that there is actually a support organization for the recovery of those who spent their childhood in such homes.
I think that reading their literature would be a real eye-opener for you. I think you will recognize so much.
You can get their literature and their "Big Book" easily. on amazon.com. Just type in "Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunctional families) in the book section of amazon.com. You can get the used books at a greatly reduced price.
I think it would be a good investment in your children and for yourself, as well. What happens today can, and does affect the future of our children and grandchildren. It becomes generational, in that sense.
Remember that Knowledge is power.

dandylion

Bidge-----trying to separate within the same household seems to be very unworkable. I have read many accounts, on this forum, of such efforts that went south. In my own life, I have seen one couple who carried it out for several years ----for the economic reason that they wanted their house to accumulate more value before selling. These were middle aged and had no children in the house,
They actually separated the house into two separate units----with separate entrances. They didn't have to even see each other. Neither was alcoholic---although the guy did drink quite a bit on occassion. They both had separate lives---and different social circles, etc. I have seen others try the in-house separation thing----unsuccessfully.

lol----trying to separate from an alcoholic, while living in the same house, seems to me like shoveling the driveway during a snow blizzard......

SmallButMighty

I know you have the very best of intentions when it comes to your children. Most parents do. We do the best we can with the tools we have.

It isn't just the alcoholic parent that affects the mental and emotional growth of a child. The codependent parent plays a major role, in my case, I was much more affected by my mother's codependent behaviour than I ever was by my dad's drinking. After all, I didn't become an alcoholic, I became a raging codependent.

When I grew up, I followed in my mum's footsteps. I married a drinker, I put up with unacceptable behaviours, I was the same role model to my kids that my mum was to me. I repeated the pattern and (inadvertently) passed those tendencies on to my eldest child. I hate that I didn't learn about codependency sooner so I could have prevented my daughter from learning these toxic traits. She knows a lot more about codependency that I did and is aware that she needs to be very careful with her boundaries, but I still wish I had set a better example much sooner.

Looking back through the generations of my family, there were many alcoholics, there were just as many codependents, they ALL had their parts in the dysfunction. Mine was the first generation that has said, "enough is enough" and started trying to break those cycles. I wish I'd started before I was in my 40s but I don't have a time machine, so it's important to let the young people understand that they don't have to live like that. They don't have to tolerate horrible behaviour. They don't have to give up their health and their happiness because someone else is making bad choices. It is my personal opinion, that I think as parents we should model the life we would want our children to have, when we don't, we do them a grave disservice. I learned this the hard way.

Not only does my daughter struggle with codependency, but my son is still angry with me for things I said and did when I was at my worst, during his teen years. Our relationship is strained because of that and I have to live with that as a consequence of my own codependent behavior. It's painful stuff, and it's the result of many generations of sick people not knowing how to properly parent their children. I'm glad we are living in an era where we can discuss these things, learn and do better moving forward.

Bidgdrunner

I'd be interested to learn from those who've sadly been there just what goes through the mind of an alcoholic. Do they know they're making such destructive decisions? Do they wrestle internally to fight the compulsions? Or are they blind or blasé about it? After all, if other people have a problem with me then that's their problem, I'm in control?

Be interested to know that's all. My wife had her worst session in months on Friday night. Doubt it was any less than three bottles and she was totally wasted. I left here on the sofa again and she picked up on my stress the next morning and we had another talk, me like the stuck record I am saying what I've said at least 9 or 10 or in fact probably many more times before over more than five years, she, like the stuck record she is, saying she'll cut down and making promises etc. She was at a friends Saturday night and said she'd drive back rather than stay over (she stayed over) and she promised she'd only drink at the weekend.

Well, last night was Monday and I got back from a bike ride at 18:00 to see her swigging brazenly from a can of beer. There was also an opened bottle of wine on the shelf with a medium glass of wine gone. To see her sitting there quite openly drinking made my jaw hit the floor. I was as surprised as I was shocked as I was disappointed.

Bearing in mind this was after I'd sent her the note below on Saturday night.

I'd really welcome thoughts from those who've been there and about what goes through the mind of an alcoholic. I really don't think I could have been any clearer or any blunter.

Consider this your first nag, as you asked me to do this morning and while this is fresh in both our minds please and while I have time to put this down. I love you. But I hate that we have had to have this conversation yet again so soon after the last one, and I don't hate it as much as I hate the person you become when you're drunk. You need to save this please and you need to read it regularly. When you drink you become a person I can't live with. And it is a person I won't live with. I love the person I spend the day with and absolutely hate who comes out at night. You drink too often, and when you drink you drink too much. And when you are drunk you are argumentative and belligerent, you slur when you talk, and you stagger around asking me the same questions and shouting at the kids, and then more often than not you then pass out on the sofa as you did last night. I've lost count of the number of times that has happened, or even of the times when I have been unable to wake you like I wasn't last night and have left you spread drunkenly across the sofa while I've gone to bed alone.

Just so there is no misunderstanding I will not spend my life with this person. Someone who makes me so unhappy, night after night. Someone with whom I have begged, pleaded, and threatened again and again, over many years, but who hasn't controlled her drinking. Someone who has promised me more times than I can even remember that she'll control things, only to end up back where she was.

This is not an accusation, it is a statement of fact. You have a problem with alcohol. And of all the people in the world, I'm the one affected by it. It's not a little bit too much, every week or so, it's not a small glass to take the edge off a tough day. It's glass after glass, bottle after bottle, night after night. You become a staggering, slurring, argumentative wreck, night after night, week after week, regularly passing out. I asked you this morning how it feels waking up on the sofa knowing you've passed out and I've gone to bed unable to wake you up and you told me it was awful. Surely that alone is enough to help you control things. You admitted again today, as in May, that you don't like who you become, but this cycle continues. I thought there had been a breakthrough in May when you finally accepted it was bad and when you first admitted you hated who you became and as you promised to do something about it. But it's now just as bad again.

I really will do everything in my power to help you, but I can't stop you drinking too much, only you can control that. You have to accept the problem AND want to do something about AND actually do something about it. Unless you can do all three of these things, with my help, or with the help of friends, or with the help from a professional and / or from a support group then I will not tolerate this. It's a blunt as that. The love and compassion I feel for you during the day is simply not strong enough to enable me to deal with the stress, anger and frustration of living with who you become night after night.

The fact that I still hate the effect your drinking has on me is why I can't come back onto the mortgage, and won't until I know you've beaten this for good. I need that money, bluntly, in case you don't beat this and I need to buy my own house.

Please let me know what I can do to help you, please talk to me, and please seek help if you don't feel able to tackle this on your own, but if you don't beat it, with or without my help, and with or without any other help, there simply won't be any more messages like this, I'll have given you everything I possibly can and the next time we have to have this conversation then, bluntly, we won't. Love you, please have fun tonight, all is good here x

Hawkeye13

Bidge, heartfelt notes with the same empty threats haven’t worked and won’t work.
You can’t control her drinking. Logic and emotional appeal simply don’t trump addiction.

You can get your kids and yourself out of this toxic situation. You said in your note your kids are being verbally abused by her when drunk. They see her slurring and passed out on the sofa frequently. They feel the tension, pain, and despair you are feeling. They are powerless in this situation. You are not.

Bidgdrunner

Yeah, I know, and despite what she's doing I'm not here out of despair or desperation, I actually feel really positive as every time I try and every time it falls on deaf ears, it makes leaving that little bit easier. I also know now that I'm able to deal better with the tension between the love I feel for her during the day and the tension, frustration and downright hatred I feel for her night after night. I'm able to legitimately feel both and don't have to stop loving her just because of what she does, but am able to take a decision that I do not have to put up with it.

​​​​So, I'm getting into full logistics mode now, sorting my mortgage offer, working out a few bills and other such stuff, and waiting to see where she heads back to alcohol wise. If it's the same place she's gone back to the past dozen plus times, and if the timescales for her deterioration follow the same pattern, then I have 2-3 months at most.

velma929

When I was very, very young, we had a nice woman who was the secretary for our college department. We adored her. She talked to us as if we were adults, though we were very much adults-in-training.

One day she told us that although she loved her ex-husband, she couldn't live with him. As a very, very young woman, I thought this was hogwash. If you loved someone, you 'worked things out.' right?

Fifteen years or so later, I experienced what she was talking about. I loved my husband, but staying with him really did a number on my mental health. At one point he actually said, "Don't ask me to choose between our marriage and beer. You won't like the answer." Sadly, I didn't have enough self-esteem to leave. I'll bet a lot of people who divorce don't hate their spouses. It would be easier to do if one did. No one would hesitate.

Leaving note after note and never following through has confirmed her impression that you don't mean what you say.

SparkleKitty

You may be better able to deal with the tension between your spouse's states, but your kids may not be. Please make sure they are getting the support they need while you work this out.

biminiblue

You asked what people who drink think?

Drinking causes all the problems of the world to go away. Once alcohol is on-board there is literally no GAF. None. As you can see she stays in that state. She may even think she is cutting down.

I used to try to moderate my drinking by keeping track of how many drinks I had. I would use wooden matchsticks. First drink, no problem. Second drink, matchstick. Third...or is this the fourth? Meh, I'll put down two matchsticks.

Next morning the bottle is empty and there are two matchsticks. Ta da. I cut down.

Delusion. That is what happens when we drink. There is literally no reality. I bet she thinks she's a great mom. It is mental illness, plain and simple.

Go.

You've done what you can do.

Go.

It might be the thing that gets through to her. (It might not.) It might be what saves her. It will definitely be what saves your kids.

FWN

I’ve written notes just like yours with someone not as far into alcoholism as yours. In the end, looking back you’ll see that these notes you are writing are really for you. They are helping you work out your feelings towards your AW and they are one step closer to you leaving. I would encourage you to get away from her for a few weeks if that is possible, with your kiddos. It is eye-opening to get out of that situation for a few weeks, you’ll realize how calm your life is without it. It is amazing how long you can stay with someone like this when you are stuck in it, in the cycle. But then when you finally have a chance to see it from the outside, things will become clearer. It’s just not possible to see it when you’re inside a home with a person like this. “Nothing changes if nothing changes.” No matter what she says to you in the mornings, she is fine with the way things are right now and could keep at this for as long as you’ll let her. Are you?
Lastly, you keep wanting to try and understand some thing that is simply not understandable by someone who has a healthy mind. She has a sickness, You cannot make sense of the senseless. Look at her actions, not her words. The actions tell you everything you need to know, it is the words that keep you staying there and once you realize they mean nothing it will make things easier on you.

dandylion

Bidg-------I would like to address a couple of things, from your writings, that suggest, to me, that you have been misled in a couple of respects. I don't think it is your fault, because, after all, most people don't know anything about alcoholism unless they have a special reason to study it. Even doctors don't know much, unless they have special study.
I notice that you use the words "cut down" and "drink too much"--when she drinks.
There is no such thing as cutting down for an alcoholic. Not having the ability to stop, after the first drink, is the hallmark of the alcoholic. If a person could have one or two drinks and then have no other (and not mentally obsess about it), they wouldn't even be an alcoholic! So, asking her to just "cut down" is a very unrealistic thing to ask of her. She probably is as ignorant of this fact as you are---and probably believes that moderation is actually possible---when it is not.
****An alcoholic cannot ever have even one drink, ever again. Total abstainence for the rest of life is the only way to keep alcoholism in remission, There is no cure---but perpetual remission is possible with the right kind of treatment,

Same with the phrase of "drink too much". In AA there is a saying----"One drink is too many, and a hundred is not enough".

I do have a major concern for your wife and her safety-----With the amount that she is drinking---I doubt that she could "just quit" without the help of a doctor----or some sort of medical supervision. She sould be bound to have very uncomfortable and dangerous withdrawl symptoms. even if she were to go one day without drinking, I suggest that she talk to a doctor and ask for the best way to go through the detoxification process. I have worked with many alcoholics and I believe that this step is essential. I, personally, would never ask a person to go cold turkey. It is extraordinarily painful and very dangerous,

biminiblue

Thanks, dandylion.

Bidg, she's right. She's worked with alcoholics in both counseling and medical capacity.

I have had decades of "experience" as a drinker and in relationship(s) with drinkers/alcoholics. Maybe start reading over on the Alcoholism or Newcomers to Recovery forums on this site.

The ONLY way out for her is complete abstinence forever and ever, Amen - and like dandy said - at this point it's likely going to have to be with medical intervention that she will have to agree to and initiate and commit to 100%.

You can't make it happen. Many alcoholics drink until dead. A few recover and never drink again. Most go back to drinking at some point.

You're rolling loaded dice.

Bekindalways

Good to hear that you are moving towards making some changes. Your wife may not be capable of ever getting sober. If she can get sober, the best help you can offer is to get out with your kids and stay away.

It doesn't sound like she has much interest in quitting nor much understanding of alcoholism.

Kudos to you for taking the steps you need to protect yourself and your children.

Keep posting. I hope your plans go smoothly.

trailmix

You've already received a bunch of great comments but just something I noticed in your post.

It almost seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel you need to get to a point or close to a point where you have no positive feelings about her at all. Yes, this makes this easier for you, no question about it.

It would be harder leaving now, before you have reached that point, but, one thing to consider is that when you do leave and take the children, you will have many years left of contact with her and is that what you want to have, no positive feelings?

It hurts, there is nothing good about any of this, it's a mess and I know it's really hard to pack your bags and get out of there. Another thing to consider is that if you do leave, it might not be forever, that will be a choice for you two to make in the future, of course, however if you get to the point that you are feeling mostly hate, that's probably not an option.

I guess what I'm really saying is that the longer you stay and the easier it is for you to leave, the more you will probably be hurting yourself (and possibly your children) down the road.

More importantly, if you take nothing else away from these comments today I think the bottom line is - Alcoholics cannot moderate, not now, not ever so her promises to "cut down" are just wishful thinking on her part, nothing more.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...mers-recovery/

Bidgdrunner

Actually, on the contrary, I still love the daytime person. Realising I can love her and still also hate what she does has been really useful for me. I used to be tetchy and grumpy during the day but am trying to manage that, but only within the context that I have concluded that the love I feel for her is not enough to outweigh the hatred, anger and frustration I feel when she behaves the way she does and treats us the way she does.

​​​​​She was totally brazen again in drinking a beer at 17:00 last night. I took our daughter out for a 30 minute walk as it was a glorious evening and she'd necked over half a bottle of wine while we were out so whilst I doubt she had more than ten units, she's showing total disregard for everything I said and wrote to her as, to be fair, I knew she would.

But, I want to be calm and fair about things, and to maintain things as amicably as possible. The house I have seen is on the same street which is great for the kids but inevitably means we'll still have a close relationship of some kind, and who knows what might happen if she gets herself together. We have a holiday in February booked so would still intend to do that together, for example, if only for the kids.

Mags1

Bid, I was the drinker in our house. My life was ruled by my need to drink. I worked and then rejoiced at home time to drink as much as possible before I crashed out. Usually blacked out on the sofa until the morning.

This was my daily routine, weekends were great. My husband was sick of me. He loved the sober me but not when I was drunk or comatose. (There was just the two of us, no children).

He joined a fishing club and started going fishing all weekend. I couldn’t have been more happy. I could drink myself stupid and then hopefully be ok for when he came home Sunday lunch.

My drinking got worse, I drank 3 bottles of wine while I was cooking tea. The first bottle went down quickly followed by the other two.

There were many arguments over the years and I did stop once for 8 months. I did it alone and was so pleased. Then I went on a London theatre weekend break with some work mates and had a drink in the interval of the play. That started the spiral down again.

I loved my husband, but I couldn’t and didn’t want to stop. I wanted to drink normal but it didn’t seem possible.

Then the day came and we had a massive row. I was drunk, he left.

While I was drunk I thought great, no more nagging over my drinking. When I woke up soberish (Looking back I don’t think I was ever cold stone sober), I had misgivings. He was at his mums and I said let’s talk. I went round in the morning to see him. The look he gave me when I asked him to come home and talk about it, shocked me. There was nothing there in his eyes except contempt. He said he didn’t want to come home. He couldn’t live like this. I heard myself saying to him that I’d stop drinking. Then I left.

On the way home I thought I’d show him, bought bottles of wine on my way home and never drank them.
I heard the words in my head that I wouldn’t drink again. That’s what I decided. I saw for the first time what I’d become and I didn’t like me. Something had clicked in me that I didn’t want to drink again. I didn’t know how I would do it but I knew I would.

We did reconciliate our marriage. I found SR which has helped me stay sober. To be honest I don’t yearn or want to drink. Haven’t for a long time. My life is much better without it.

I understand your wife’s behaviour. As much as we love anyone our addiction comes first.
Feeding it can ruin lives and even kill us.

Only your wife will decide to stop. You and your children getting on with your lives sounds a good choice.

I grew up with an alcoholic father, and then later became one myself. I became what I had despised for part of my life. My dad did cut down on his alcohol, my mum never did leave him. (She threatened to many times but never carried it through) Two weeks before she passed away she put in her diary about leaving him again.

Life passes by so quickly and I know living with an alcoholic dad and co-dependant mum, my life was turmoil on the inside.

I hope you can make that stand, for you and your children.

Bidgdrunner

So, that's twice in the last fortnight she's promised never to drink again! Exactly what goes through an alcoholics' head when they make such promises, knowing it's not something they can possible deliver, and when actually all I want is an acceptance that she has a problem and for her to beg me to help her, which would be something I would absolute love to offer her.

SparkleKitty

She wants to believe she is telling the truth, Bidg. That's the best I can give you.

There's something a bit off-putting about your desire for her to "beg" you to help her. At this point, she is not the one who has a problem with her drinking; you are. That's an unpleasant reality, but that is what her actions thusfar have told you, regardless of what she says. This is the reality YOU are challenged to accept, every bit as much you wish her to accept HER reality that she is an alcoholic.

We can keep waiting for someone else to change, and dealing with the consequences when they don't, or we can make changes ourselves. That's the choice.

SmallButMighty

Bidg, I'm sorry your AW has not had a miraculous turn around based on your love and desire to help her. If only it worked that way. To tell you the truth, everyone here has had great love and a desire to help their alcoholics too. I've been hanging out here for about a decade and not once have I ever seen love and desire to help be the magic pill that got an alcoholic sober. I've seen everybody try to understand why their alcoholic says what they say and do what they do. I was definitely one of those people trying to figure out the insanity. Angry and hurt that he could knowingly be drinking me away. Why would he stay sober for a month, two months, three months and then throw that all away? How could he possibly love me as much as he says he did and keep sucking back vodka like his life depended on it? How could he lie to me again knowing that it was the dishonesty that was "killing" me? After pushing the envelope for years, never hurting himself or anyone else, finally getting a DUI but then continue to drink and drive...what kind of sick, selfish, maniac does that??? Seeing his wife yet again sleeping on the couch because she couldn't stand to be in the bed with his drunk stench,snoring and leg flopping... how can anyone see that hundreds of times but continue to drink?...... I understand all your question Bidg. There is a one single word answer to all of them. Alcoholism.

I wanted to think my love and my words would cure my alcoholic ex husband. I thought our love was unique and special and people here just didn't understand that when they would tell me that I couldn't help him. Obviously they just didn't understand how much he and I loved and needed each other right? Wrong. Everyone here has a special connection to their qualifier(s). Everyone here understood exactly what I was feeling, they also knew I was spinning my wheels waiting for him to see the light. He was going to have to find that light on his own.(He still hasn't)

I didn't find peace until I stopped trying to figure out why he was doing the destructive things he was doing and started trying to figure out why I was doing the destructive things I was doing... like wasting my time trying to fix another person and losing my mind in the process.

I stopped blaming my alcoholic for my misery and realized that I was responsible for the state of my life. As long as I was willing to keep putting up with his behaviour I was going to suffer. That was on me. You cant blame a leopard for having spots or a tiger for having stripes, they are what they are, just like active alcoholics are what they are. My alcoholic wasn't the only one with a problem, obviously I had one too because I kept holding on to what was making me miserable. Nobody else to blame for that but myself. There is a saying, "let go or be dragged"... the hardest thing I ever had to do was let go.

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, right?

I hope you are considering trying something else. I was stuck in the insanity for a very long time. My willingness to put up with unacceptable behaviour robbed me of my serenity and a better quality of life for many years. I hope you make better choices sooner than I did.