Bernadette

Please Bidg, please put your efforts towards protecting, educating, and bolstering the minor children and not towards trying to change an alcoholic adult.

Kids know when something is terribly wrong. I did from like age 6 or so. I always say, I wish someone, anyone, any sane sober adult, had taken us kids aside and said, "Hey this is alcoholism, it's not your fault, you didn't cause it, can't cure it, and can't control it, and neither can I, and it doesn't mean dad doesn't love you or that you can't love him. And I am always here for you and will answer any questions you have, or help you find answers." And then gotten me into AlAteen as soon as I was old enough so I would have known I wasn't alone and so I could have found the language to understand my home life. I wouldn't have felt like what was going on in my family was sooooo so shameful that no one even spoke about it, everyone tiptoed around it!!

All 3 of my beautiful, sporty, smart brothers ended up alcoholics. Would conversations like this when we were kids have helped prevent that? I'll never know because there was not a single adult courageous enough to shift the spotlight off the freakin alcoholic and onto the people they really COULD help: the kids!

And FWIW my Mom would have classified my Dad as a "functioning alcoholic" since he never lost his job, had friends, read books, had a social life, was incredibly smart and charming, etc. etc. "Functioning" isn't really an actual designation as far as addiction is concerned. It's just a stage. Alcoholism only goes in one direction: from bad, to worse, to even worse than that.

A's will keep up whatever facade they have to so that nothing gets in the way of their drinking: do they need to keep up the respectability of a job so they can keep drinking? Do they need to lay off the sauce for a day or a week or two so that they can then get back to drinking? Do they need to blame stress, past trauma, you, but never seek professional help for their drinking? Do they need to hide bottles and lie about amounts consumed? Do they need to pick a fight about whatever so as not to talk about their drinking? If they try AA or or counseling do they need to say "it's not for me" so they can keep drinking? They will do whatever they have to, to keep justifying, in their minds, the drinking. That is addiction.

Point being: growing up in an alcoholic home can be really damaging. Any parent who thinks kids living with an active A parent aren't being seriously affected is in deep denial and doesn't understand the reality of alcoholism as a family disease, or the natural way that children learn and absorb from the family dynamic.

Sorry for what brought you here, it is super painful, but glad you found this forum - collectively we've seen it all, you're not alone, you don't have to re-invent the wheel, you can, as the saying goes, "reminisce with total strangers!"
Peace,
B

Bidgdrunner

No, not harsh at all, it's completely fair. Everything I understand about how she is affected, from my own experience, from my own research, and from reading threads on here, means my eyes are fully open to the fact that I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst.

But, this will make me feel better. It will make me feel like I tried. I suspect mostly it will simply make her more secretive about her drinking but, hey, if she's not willing to admit that she needs help and that she wants help then, as others have quite rightly said, I just need to look out for myself and my kids.

SparkleKitty

So, what will it take to convince you that she isn't willing to admit this? How many times are you prepared to go through this cycle?

You are so very focused on her, but the power to change your situation lies solely within yourself.

trailmix

I guess my message and my concern for you comes from the fact that you have already really tried. May wasn't that long ago and you told her the same thing. But my concern is for you. You may get a rally, a few days not drinking, a "I will moderate" or "only drink on the weekend evenings" but you will end up in the same place down the road.

That harms you, that's where my message is aimed. I know she is your wife and I know you do love her and that you are not going to throw her to the wolves, but solving her drinking problem is kind of out of your hands.

I have to ask, why are you writing to someone you live in the same house with? She is "sober" during the day? Why can't you just sit and tell her?

Bidgdrunner

It's a very fair question, and I don't exactly know the answer. Previously I've written stuff like this down to get what I want to say straight in my head, then spoken to her, then sent her a message saying the same thing. Maybe I've given up and am going through the motions, maybe I'm scared, maybe I don't really know what I'm doing and am making this up as I go along. Probably it's a bit of all three.

Sleepyhollo

I wrote my now ex a 4 page ultimatum letter like that. I felt that talking to him directly wouldn’t do any good even if sober. I had tried this before. This way I could carefully chose my words and organize my thoughts. Make fair but true statements and not forget anything as far as how his drinking impacted our lives. Had I talked to him I would’ve been somewhat anxious and would have left out things that would’ve been important to tell. I left the letter after he was once again passed out with a bowl of rice spilled all over him. I guesS it also gave him time to reflect on what I said before he came back with response although that is not why I did it. I did it because it was better for me. After we did discuss it further in person.

for the person who said that they have never seen a letter like that work before....it worked in my case. But it only worked because he himself had gotten to the point where he felt like he could no longer go on like that (I spent two weeks alone with my kid on vacation and it probably gave him time to reflect on things as I had become more and more distant, but who really knows). I guess he just needed a final kick in the butt. I also wrote that letter with. the intention to follow through with my threat of leaving. It was the first time in 14 years I had actually gotten to that point hence the need to write the letter to organize my thoughts etc.

OP, nothing wrong with that letter, but be prepared to follow through with your threats and leave if nothing changes, otherwise it will be a waste really.

trailmix

Hey Sleepyhollo and Bidgdrunner, yes, I don't disagree with the letter per se. It can be particularly challenging to speak to an addict, moods can be volatile, clarity when talking isn't always there and you may have expressed the same thoughts over and over to no avail.

But what I see is a bigger problem. If you cannot talk to the person you are married to/live with, that's another whole issue? That said, if, as you say Bidgdrunner, it will make you feel better, what the heck, why not.

I just think sometimes a relationship can go so far down a hole that any expectations (and the shovel) should be tossed (SH - I am glad your letter worked).

I hate to see someone get hurt over and over, that's all.

Sleepyhollo

I totally agree that the bigger issue is communication and I definitely felt like I could no longer communicate with him comfortably on things other then kid related stuff etc. Communication had broken down long before that but that’s common when you’re with an addict and indeed a huge part of the problem. Any time heavy stuff needed to be discussed I felt really anxious because I could never predict his response/mood The times I had talked to him it felt useless either immediately or later when I realized he didn’t even remember talking about certain things.

I think OP just needs to decide the purpose behind his letter. If it is just to let her know how he feels and that’s it I don’t think it will be useful really, just like talking with her wasn’t . She might do better for a while and then revert back to her usual.

Bidgdrunner

Thanks all. It would be fair to say that knowing what to do is continuing to challenge me.

I've written to her previously for a number of reasons. It allowed me to take time to work out what I wanted to say. Previously, on all occasions I've then spoken to her having prepared my thoughts, and then sent her a note. I always hoped a note would be useful. It gave her something to read and reflect, it meant there could be less misunderstanding, less emotion and anger getting in the way, and it meant I had a record of what had been said. I was unsure this time if sending her a note while she was passed out, with a picture, would have more emotional punch or effect but don't know and just hate how her behaviours are making me so scared and uncertain, and with no idea what to do.

It's 07:15 and I've been awake for two hours thinking. I plan to work out what I'm going to say and then speak to her again, followed up with a note. Doubt I'll have long to wait, her latest online delivery of a dozen bottles arrived yesterday.

Thanks everyone.

Hawkeye13

Whatever you decide, it is critical to follow-through. Your kids are getting a huge amount of collateral damage in all of this.
Living with an alcoholic, and the tension between you two is quite a difficult situation for unformed young people.

Please do get some counseling and extra support lined up ASAP for them. That's something they will benefit from no matter what she does or you choose to do.

Bekindalways

I so so so get the note writing. I used to agonize and rewrite what I wrote to my qualifier hoping against hope that if I said it just write he would change. Of course it doesn't work that way.

The fear and uncertainty are horrible to experience. The note writing probably helps us all feel better as it feeds the hope that we ourselves won't have to change.

There is a saying here, "take the next right step.". As it is overwhelming to face the entirety of leaving an alcoholic, it is best to just focus on something teeny tiny to do next. It might mean finding an on line alanon group, looking at options of where to move if you and the kids need to leave, or just getting a bit of exercise so that your own mood is better.

The more you can take the focus off of her and her drinking the better. All that energy that goes into monitoring her alcohol consumption and trying to communicate with her can be better utilized by focusing on your own self care and your kids. This is beyond beyond difficult as well as transformational for your family.

Bidgdrunner

Yeah, that's true. When I take time and effort to write a note I can imagine the powerful effect my words will have and the realisation in her that she needs to change, and that hope makes me feel better. Of course, my words don't work in the way I hope they will but the very act of writing them, pondering every word and comma, makes me feel a lot better. And, practically, it also means that when I do speak to her that I'm prepared, as in the face of denial and yet more promises, it's very easy to be sidetracked and not say what you felt needed to be said. So, in that regard I'm still working on our next conversation. I've titled my document 'Last Attempt' but honestly, don't know, as you state so well, one step at a time.

That said, I have my logistics squared away, and in that respect I'm very lucky. I have money from when we last split up and I have a mortgage offer, so in theory it's all set up. I've also run at least 6 miles every day since March, just to give me some respite and keep me sane, but the sense of powerless still pervades pretty much every waking thought.

biminiblue

As an alcoholic in recovery myself I can say that anyone speaking badly about me just made me double down on my drinking. Alcohol covers shame and anger very nicely. It covers everything. When I drank I didn't have to feel anything - and shame and anger were a big part of what I really didn't want to feel. Usually if anyone disagreed or disapproved I just replaced THEM.

I didn't have kids though. No idea the kind of shame and guilt that would cause to a mother. She's far enough gone that I don't think a letter or a picture will do anywhere near what you think it's going to do. I would bet that it would increase her self-loathing and increase the drinking because drinking allows an alcoholic to avoid emotions of any kind but especially the bad emotions. Everything is just floaty and quiet with alcohol.

Your only hope here - truly - is to take your stand. I would be moving out and rescuing those kids.

Bekindalways

Ugh . . . . the more shame and self-loathing an addict feels, the more they dive into drinking. The more the alcoholics drink, the more we codies monitor, talk, write and focus on their drinking . . . . .and round and round we go.

Bidge we do have folks here who don't leave. Some learn to detach and live their lives around the drinker the best they can. It is a personal decision and I found leaving to be so ding dang dad blasted hard that I don't blame folks who stay with the alcoholic one tiny bit.

dandylion

Bidg-------I understand that, in spite of how uncomfortable you are with her drinking----that you are in your comfort zone. lol---not happy zone, but, comfort zone.
It is like the example of the caterpillar and the butterfly---- The moral of that particular example is that one changes when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the fear of changing. A kind of tipping point.
You may stay for many more years....and/or you may stay for the total time. In the end, that will be your choice as you have free will.
The reason that I am writing this is (again), concern for the children who are in mid-development and being shaped by their family experiences. I can imagine that the kids are still quite dependent and pretty passive, in the whole process. As a forshadowing into the future---this will not always remain so. There will be consequences that are not anticipated, due to their young age, Sometimes, on this borad---there are situations where the kids develop great resentment toward the non-alcoholic parent, because they were made to stay and spend their childhood in an alcoholic home, They resent thed non---alcoholic parent for not protecting them. Other possible outcomes are that the child. in adulthood, becomes and alcoholic----OR becomes a co-dependent, themselves, with alcoholic partners.
Whether you realize it or not----you are still your children's teacher and they are learning from you.

I am going to go out on a limb, here, and make a suggestion for your consideration. Why not think "out of the box"????

Why not buy a house that is close enough----so that the children, and you, can have interaction with your wife when she is Lucid---as you describe her during the day---yet, have a structured and peaceful and secure home, with you, during the rest of the time? This, would, at least, give the kids a respit from the alcoholic atmosphere and give them the chance to live like "normal" children---with a safe home as their base of operation.
You, also, could connect with her, only during the Lucid times---and be gone during the drunk times---every evening. It seems that those drunk times are bringing you the most intense anxiety.
If you fear for your wife's safety when she is drunk----simply hire a live-in person (or charge a very small rent) to keep watch during the evenings and nights.
I see this kind of arrangement as a way to. at least, give the children a sliver of a chance and respit. In addition, you can retain as much connection to your wife as you need.

What do you think of this kind of idea?

Bidgdrunner

That's very well put, and as coincidence has it, exactly what I'm planning. I live in a small village so there are no suitable houses available right now (the best option presently being immediately over the road and owned by a friend who is moving, and that's just too close for comfort) but nowhere else in the village is more than five minutes walk so would be perfect for the kids as they're old enough to run on their own between two houses at will.

But, I'm still at that point where the fear of staying is more modest than the fear of the turmoil and disruption that would come from leaving. Quite when or even if that balance will tip I didn't know. I just know that I can't sit here passively waiting for the inevitable decline into greater dependency that absolutely everyone has told me is coming down the track, because, at that point, whenever that might be, I know we'll be done. And so, in the meantime, I live like some lifeless zombie, existing, but barely so, knowing what's coming, and even hating the present, but being unable and, honestly, unwilling to do anything profound to influence it, instead simply talking to her and writing to her again and again. I accept that the more I do that, and threaten, and the more ashe ignores me and I didn't carry through my threats, then the less effective they'll be. Breaking that cycle of despair then is the greatest challenge I've ever faced but, like a moth flitting round a light bulb, I'm there again and again, futile attempt after futile attempt.

dandylion

Bidg-----you speak of the "turmoil and disruption" that would be caused by leaving. Can you speak, specifically, of what kind of turmoil The ones that you fear or dread the most.
I believe that you spoke of leaving, once, before---if I am remembering correctly.
What was that like? Was there certain kinds of turmoil and disruption that you remember from that time?

Bidgdrunner

Yeah, we've separated three times, the last time was a major one. We stayed in the same house but remortgaged and I was set to buy my own house until it fell through, which all told was about six months. The driver for that split, as well as her drinking, was me finding £45,000 of secret credit card debt (and that being the 4th time, albeit this was the largest sum by far). It was awful. Stressful and emotionally draining. Challenging for the kids due to the family atmosphere and the constant pleading and promises, as well as the accusations (that I had found someone else, that I was making more of a deal of things than I should) that even made me doubt myself. Right now, it just seems better to put up with things, enjoy the fact that I love the four of us being a family, that I still enjoy the times when she's sober, and that I still feel I can give her another / more opportunities to realise and understand the effect her behaviours are having on me before I feel I'm again in a position where I have to take that step. I also tell myself that the older and more independent the kids get (14 & 11) then the less damaging any split will be on them, but perhaps I'm also blind to any negative effects that growing up with an alcoholic mother is having on them.

SparkleKitty

I am one of those kids, who grew up with an alcoholic mother and a codependent father who waited for her to see the light.

The damage to me and my siblings was mostly invisible, but devastating nonetheless. I learned from my parents what marriage was supposed to look like. I learned from my mother that love, attention, and connection should be earned but that nothing I ever did or said would be good enough to do so. I learned from my father that what I wanted and needed from relationships should always be set aside to protect the other person, and I learned that it was right and noble to do so. I learned that only other people could validate my worth, and that I was not capable of doing that myself.

I learned all that and I didn’t even realize it until I was 32 years old and my life came crashing down around me.

I am almost fifty years old now and it was only after many years of therapy that I was able to untangle the knot of my childhood and begin to build boundaries and a sense of self-esteem that have allowed me to actually have good, healthy relationships. Both my parents have passed, but my relationships with them did not survive my recovery from codependency and growing up as an adult child of an alcoholic. Not that either of them noticed. They were still too wrapped up in each other to realize the legacy they had created for the three children who had not asked to be brought into their world.

Bidgdrunner

That's as profound as it is heartbreaking as it is worrying 😢