Texts with AW today
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Texts with AW today
AW went up to hospital this morning - she was trying to go "cold turkey," but suffered bad symptoms. They are admitting her. Note, I moved out of the house a few days ago. Here are the relevant text exchanges:
AW: So I guess we're really doing this? I NEED more time. Please don't rush. I have so much to lose.
MCESaint: I don't think right now is the right time to discuss the state of our marriage. You need to get detoxed and then sober.I haven't filed anything in court. But we can't stay in the pattern we have been either. I picked up [minor child] from daycare so he/she is fine.. U don't have to worry about him/her, our other child, or me. Focus on getting yourself detoxed and sober. U do that and we will see where you and I stand. But not having that discussion before you have sobriety under your belt. But, if you can't get and stay sober there is nothing for us to discuss.
AW: So I guess we're really doing this? I NEED more time. Please don't rush. I have so much to lose.
MCESaint: I don't think right now is the right time to discuss the state of our marriage. You need to get detoxed and then sober.I haven't filed anything in court. But we can't stay in the pattern we have been either. I picked up [minor child] from daycare so he/she is fine.. U don't have to worry about him/her, our other child, or me. Focus on getting yourself detoxed and sober. U do that and we will see where you and I stand. But not having that discussion before you have sobriety under your belt. But, if you can't get and stay sober there is nothing for us to discuss.
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Your response sounds pretty on point to me MCE.
As you have been on Soberrecovery since 2011, it doesn't look like you are rushing into anything.
Do you have a plan to take care of yourself and the kids? Do you have some support?
Let us know how it goes and how we can support you with whatever unfolds.
As you have been on Soberrecovery since 2011, it doesn't look like you are rushing into anything.
Do you have a plan to take care of yourself and the kids? Do you have some support?
Let us know how it goes and how we can support you with whatever unfolds.
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Very civil text exchange between you both... and your position is exactly what i did with my wife.... there is no sense talking to an active addict, and until they get themselves back on the road to being healthy, there is no use or point discussing anything. Your message was loud and clear that there is no "we" future without a healthy her... and even then, there are no guarrantees.
All the best to you, your children, and your wife.
All the best to you, your children, and your wife.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII 
did she even ask about the children, or just make it all about HER?
thank you for making sure they are safe.
as Rhett Butler said: A cat’s a better mother than you
apologies to cats everywhere.
thank you for making sure they are safe.
as Rhett Butler said: A cat’s a better mother than you
apologies to cats everywhere.
Her line in not facing the drinking is to play the "martyr" - but I do this and this and this and this for everyone. That plays into: how could this house possibly function without her so who has time to get sober.
HER way of being about her is to be about everybody else and, thus, cement (in her own mind) her central role - if that makes any sense.
Worse, when she drank she had a tendency to run down our own children. So, our eldest played soccer. Not the most talented player; not the least - but lots of heart. She'd come to games and cheer our child on . . . but then on the sidelines "apologize" that our child didn't really know what she was doing out there, etc. - which is sort of what her parents did to her (and still do to a certain extent).
It's not being "neglectful" in the "traditional sense" of not going to school plays, etc. (though, honestly, the oldest doesn't want her coming to school functions any more because you never know whether "sober mom" or "drunk drama mama" is going to show up).
So, I didn't mind that she didn't ASK about the kids because, really, that SHOULD be down on the list of issues she's dealing with right now. The slack there CAN be picked up - that's my responsibility as a parent.
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That sounds SO toxic for the kids. How sad.
Your text sounds on point. However, I hope you are not downplaying the affects this has on you or the children. We Codies are always moving the line in the sand back further and further. If her children don't want her to attend events, and one child has moved out, then she is not a good mom. Period.
If she is playing the blame game, she is not in recovery, period.
I hope you take good care of you and the kids!
Your text sounds on point. However, I hope you are not downplaying the affects this has on you or the children. We Codies are always moving the line in the sand back further and further. If her children don't want her to attend events, and one child has moved out, then she is not a good mom. Period.
If she is playing the blame game, she is not in recovery, period.
I hope you take good care of you and the kids!
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That’s great. I went through something similar with Xabf. He wanted to talk about the relationship from his hospital bed. Everyday. Wanted to discuss the state of things, begging not to leave etc. This alone to me didn’t sound anything like the seriousness of recovery. I would not entertain those conversations either. At those moments they are only panicking in dealing with the very real consequences of their addiction rather than panicking that OMG FORGET EVERYONE RIGHT NOW I NEED TO DIVE INTO SOBRIETY!
I’m sorry your dealing with this. Sounds like you hit your bottom. I know for me it just got to the point where i couldn’t live another moment like this. I just couldn’t. I was dying in order to save his life. I knew that no matter what happened, I could no longer do business as usual. Best of luck.
I’m sorry your dealing with this. Sounds like you hit your bottom. I know for me it just got to the point where i couldn’t live another moment like this. I just couldn’t. I was dying in order to save his life. I knew that no matter what happened, I could no longer do business as usual. Best of luck.
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Look, I like having this forum because I don't have access to a group of people who can "relate" to having an AW, AH, ABF, AGF, etc.
On the other hand, I also *hate* this forum from time-to-time too.
One of the things I hate is the "binary thinking" and urge to label - good parent/bad parent; in recovery/not in recovery, etc.
Truth is, we are ALL less than perfect humans and, therefore, less than perfect parents, husbands, wives, etc.
In my case, my daughter moved out NOT ONLY because she had issues with mom, but she had issues with me too related to how *I* dealt with the situation. I got to own my portion. If you're not owning your own chit, then you're not doing it right, IMO. Fortunately, D and I are working through many of those issues; but it's a work in progress.
I think recovery for an addict is like that too: a work in progress.
So I think less in terms of "is W *in* recovery?" (State 1) or "is W *not* in recovery?" (State 2); but I think in terms of analog -- she's no longer drinking (State = 0) but she's not well enough to be out in the real world (let's say, that's State = 10). Let's call the state she is in (hospitalized and detoxing) State = 0.185. Hopefully, she'll move on to State 2.01 and then to State 2.35, etc.
But, honestly, I believe for her (if not for most addicts) "progress" is going to be more like State = 2.01 to State = 0.55 to State = 1.99 to 2.57 to 3.012 to 2.10, etc. In other words on the road to State = 10 "well enough to be in the real world" the graph looks more like a mountain range than a ramp.
Having said that - my words to AW sound a bit like Yoda: "Do or don't do. There is no try."
As for me, I'm trying really, really trying hard not to get caught up in her daily/weekly blips of going up or down on the scale. It's ONE way for ME to get off of HER roller coaster.
MCESaint
On the other hand, I also *hate* this forum from time-to-time too.
One of the things I hate is the "binary thinking" and urge to label - good parent/bad parent; in recovery/not in recovery, etc.
Truth is, we are ALL less than perfect humans and, therefore, less than perfect parents, husbands, wives, etc.
In my case, my daughter moved out NOT ONLY because she had issues with mom, but she had issues with me too related to how *I* dealt with the situation. I got to own my portion. If you're not owning your own chit, then you're not doing it right, IMO. Fortunately, D and I are working through many of those issues; but it's a work in progress.
I think recovery for an addict is like that too: a work in progress.
So I think less in terms of "is W *in* recovery?" (State 1) or "is W *not* in recovery?" (State 2); but I think in terms of analog -- she's no longer drinking (State = 0) but she's not well enough to be out in the real world (let's say, that's State = 10). Let's call the state she is in (hospitalized and detoxing) State = 0.185. Hopefully, she'll move on to State 2.01 and then to State 2.35, etc.
But, honestly, I believe for her (if not for most addicts) "progress" is going to be more like State = 2.01 to State = 0.55 to State = 1.99 to 2.57 to 3.012 to 2.10, etc. In other words on the road to State = 10 "well enough to be in the real world" the graph looks more like a mountain range than a ramp.
Having said that - my words to AW sound a bit like Yoda: "Do or don't do. There is no try."
As for me, I'm trying really, really trying hard not to get caught up in her daily/weekly blips of going up or down on the scale. It's ONE way for ME to get off of HER roller coaster.
MCESaint
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Originally Posted by MCESaint
IMO - if you leave the alcoholism stupid chit to the side (drinking while driving, etc.) - she's actually a pretty good mother most of the time. But it's the drinking that has caused conflicts and unacceptable parent behaviors with the oldest child (who, I've written before, has moved in with relatives).
Her line in not facing the drinking is to play the "martyr" - but I do this and this and this and this for everyone. That plays into: how could this house possibly function without her so who has time to get sober.
Her line in not facing the drinking is to play the "martyr" - but I do this and this and this and this for everyone. That plays into: how could this house possibly function without her so who has time to get sober.
Are you married to Mrs. COD as well? My AW is a good mom...... until she starts drinking, then she just gets stupid and has no idea what's going on. The house could probably burn down around her and she wouldn't know - because she's passed out on the kitchen island. Definition of island: an immovable object in the center of the kitchen used for preparing food, also has stools near it for sitting and eating, etc. Sorry - had to define that based on my previous posts. I've told Alkie that being a parent is a gift and a blessing - it's also a 24/7/365 endeavour, not to be taken lightly. My Alkie is a 13/7/365 parent - well short of what I consider the minimum. I feel for you.
Also, AW also has the martyr streak in her as well - all she does is cook and clean and this and that, and that and this. It gets really OLD. What's interesting is that in the past 8 years, she has had several medical conditions (other than booze) that have made her unable to do much of anything around the house - totally about a year's time. Amazingly, the kid was fed, the dishes NEVER piled up, the vacuuming and the dusting and laundry were all done - to the point of being 'visitor-ready' at all times. Yet, she's "always done everything around the house". Yeah, we get you. It's all quacking.
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Fair enough. I've had my own grudges with some of the comments I've gotten in the past as well making me want to shout from the rooftops "but you don't know the full picture how can you judge?!?!!!" . I'm sure it is frustrating when you are reading advice or commentary when we only really know a tiny sliver of what's going on. The thing is, is that we cannot know every intricacy of a relationship between two people. It is easy to call out recovery or not recovery. Trying or not trying, just based on a small bit you give us. or that anyone gives us. However, sometimes it can be all that matters in the end. The small stuff that only WE know with our partner, is sometimes all it takes to get us sucked into the insanity of it all.
What SR has done I have found, is allowed me to tell my story, and to have an audience that is not emotionally tied like I am, that could read between all the small lines. That on some level while I knew that my partner wasn't only the glaring bad things that were on paper (that yes he did all these terrible things but that I still believe was really a good, albeit hurt, soul), sometimes the harsh facts that SR noted were enough to be all that mattered.
Yes, he was made of MANY different parts and at MANY different levels throughout our relationship and his journey, as you call them, but none of that really ever mattered except for, how is this person impacting my life right now? SR was a great tool for me to recognize that in the end, that was really all that mattered. Not so much where he was in his recovery or not in his recovery, but where those states impacted me. How did those "levels" make me feel. And that that alone was the most important thing.
Yes, all of this is much more complex than that. So many other things factor into the actions of others. And recovery is not black and white, but there are moments when our own recovery is. We are all works in progress, yes. But for me in the end what was important was, how long do I want to wait for this person to progress in his "work" when all that I have ever seen was the addiction progressing? So it became a work in addiction progress, never really a work in recovery progress. Recovery really being the only thing that would allow success in our relationship, work, family, basically everything. Without it, we had nothing.
Sorry for the long drawn out comment which may or may not have anything to do with what you've said.
What SR has done I have found, is allowed me to tell my story, and to have an audience that is not emotionally tied like I am, that could read between all the small lines. That on some level while I knew that my partner wasn't only the glaring bad things that were on paper (that yes he did all these terrible things but that I still believe was really a good, albeit hurt, soul), sometimes the harsh facts that SR noted were enough to be all that mattered.
Yes, he was made of MANY different parts and at MANY different levels throughout our relationship and his journey, as you call them, but none of that really ever mattered except for, how is this person impacting my life right now? SR was a great tool for me to recognize that in the end, that was really all that mattered. Not so much where he was in his recovery or not in his recovery, but where those states impacted me. How did those "levels" make me feel. And that that alone was the most important thing.
Yes, all of this is much more complex than that. So many other things factor into the actions of others. And recovery is not black and white, but there are moments when our own recovery is. We are all works in progress, yes. But for me in the end what was important was, how long do I want to wait for this person to progress in his "work" when all that I have ever seen was the addiction progressing? So it became a work in addiction progress, never really a work in recovery progress. Recovery really being the only thing that would allow success in our relationship, work, family, basically everything. Without it, we had nothing.
Sorry for the long drawn out comment which may or may not have anything to do with what you've said.
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As an alcoholic in "recovery" myself I can say that alcoholism is in fact an either-or. Binary.
Either I'm pouring alcohol into my own mouth, or I'm not.
"Recovery" happens after the drink disappears. Not before, not while drinking, not in between relapses.
The first step is to admit defeat and stop putting it in the mouth.
Then recovery happens. So. Just to clarify.
Either I'm pouring alcohol into my own mouth, or I'm not.
"Recovery" happens after the drink disappears. Not before, not while drinking, not in between relapses.
The first step is to admit defeat and stop putting it in the mouth.
Then recovery happens. So. Just to clarify.
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"Recovery" happens after the drink disappears. Not before, not while drinking, not in between relapses.
So let's say 5 years from now you have a drink and relapse - because Alcoholism is a life long "disease."
You weren't "in recovery" from now until that future point??
See what I mean about "labels"??
MCESaint
So let's say 5 years from now you have a drink and relapse - because Alcoholism is a life long "disease."
You weren't "in recovery" from now until that future point??
See what I mean about "labels"??
MCESaint
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In my opinion, you can’t fix what you can’t define. Sure there are certain labels that are hurtful, mean and derogatory and have no place in society. Had I not been defined as a codependent I would not have been able to address the things in my life that continued to cause me hurt and pain. I would not have the ability today to let go of toxic relationships or in the belief that I was responsible to fix someone else.
I chuckled when I read your terms of state 1, state 2 analog, state =0.185 because in my recovery group there is a gentleman who started out calling his wife – wife .01 today he calls his wife- wife 12.3.5 Seems with each detox, rehab, days in a 12 step program, counseling, etc. he defines those in the term of a system upgrade and then a fix to those upgrades.
I chuckled when I read your terms of state 1, state 2 analog, state =0.185 because in my recovery group there is a gentleman who started out calling his wife – wife .01 today he calls his wife- wife 12.3.5 Seems with each detox, rehab, days in a 12 step program, counseling, etc. he defines those in the term of a system upgrade and then a fix to those upgrades.
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Originally Posted by MCESaint
"Recovery" happens after the drink disappears. Not before, not while drinking, not in between relapses.
So let's say 5 years from now you have a drink and relapse - because Alcoholism is a life long "disease."
You weren't "in recovery" from now until that future point??
See what I mean about "labels"??
MCESaint
So let's say 5 years from now you have a drink and relapse - because Alcoholism is a life long "disease."
You weren't "in recovery" from now until that future point??
See what I mean about "labels"??
MCESaint
See what I mean about binary?
Sure there are other personality and coping issues for most people. That's also where recovery is.
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Originally Posted by CentralOhioDad
I've been AWOL for the last week or so - swamped at work, and in pain all the rest of the time - but enough about me. I saw this post and felt the need to comment:
Are you married to Mrs. COD as well? My AW is a good mom...... until she starts drinking, then she just gets stupid and has no idea what's going on. The house could probably burn down around her and she wouldn't know - because she's passed out on the kitchen island. Definition of island: an immovable object in the center of the kitchen used for preparing food, also has stools near it for sitting and eating, etc. Sorry - had to define that based on my previous posts. I've told Alkie that being a parent is a gift and a blessing - it's also a 24/7/365 endeavour, not to be taken lightly. My Alkie is a 13/7/365 parent - well short of what I consider the minimum. I feel for you.
Also, AW also has the martyr streak in her as well - all she does is cook and clean and this and that, and that and this. It gets really OLD. What's interesting is that in the past 8 years, she has had several medical conditions (other than booze) that have made her unable to do much of anything around the house - totally about a year's time. Amazingly, the kid was fed, the dishes NEVER piled up, the vacuuming and the dusting and laundry were all done - to the point of being 'visitor-ready' at all times. Yet, she's "always done everything around the house". Yeah, we get you. It's all quacking.
Are you married to Mrs. COD as well? My AW is a good mom...... until she starts drinking, then she just gets stupid and has no idea what's going on. The house could probably burn down around her and she wouldn't know - because she's passed out on the kitchen island. Definition of island: an immovable object in the center of the kitchen used for preparing food, also has stools near it for sitting and eating, etc. Sorry - had to define that based on my previous posts. I've told Alkie that being a parent is a gift and a blessing - it's also a 24/7/365 endeavour, not to be taken lightly. My Alkie is a 13/7/365 parent - well short of what I consider the minimum. I feel for you.
Also, AW also has the martyr streak in her as well - all she does is cook and clean and this and that, and that and this. It gets really OLD. What's interesting is that in the past 8 years, she has had several medical conditions (other than booze) that have made her unable to do much of anything around the house - totally about a year's time. Amazingly, the kid was fed, the dishes NEVER piled up, the vacuuming and the dusting and laundry were all done - to the point of being 'visitor-ready' at all times. Yet, she's "always done everything around the house". Yeah, we get you. It's all quacking.
My AW usually doesn't usually pass out (just sometimes) - but, that's often worse. She's unsteady on her feet, swaying, argumentative - even argues with the television (it's Bill Maher. On television. You know he can't hear you, right?).
And the repetition -- egads the repetition. We can have a "discussion" like - ok, you're dropping the car off tomorrow at the mechanic's right? Yes. Five minutes later: how are we getting the car to mechanics? I'm dropping it off. Ok. Five minutes later: what are we doing about the car tomorrow??
My step-mother developed dementia and Alzheimer's . . . and it's like that with AW when she's drinking.
I would say mornings are actually best with my AW -- she may be sick, nausea, etc. but she's not tipsy drunk yet. No arguing, Coherent thoughts, no repetition etc.
My AW is also OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). I could care less whether the house is "visitor ready" or not. Look, if you know us well enough to just "drop in," then you know we both work jobs, we have two kids (one under the age of 5 y.o.) toys will be out in the living room, etc. So if finding dishes in the sink bothers you, Mr./Ms. Visitor - my view is call and make an appointment.
My "thermostat" for dishes, toys, etc. is set higher than hers. Oh, to be sure, I'll reach a point where "ok, dammit" kids get in here and pick up the toys, I gotta get those dishes done, etc. -- but even ONE cup/dish is too much for her.
BUT, OTOH, the kids will have clean clothes, get their baths at night, get dinner, etc. And that's a lot of what AW's doing due to our schedule. I get the mornings - so get 'em up, get 'em fed, lunches packed (or lunch money), etc.
MCESaint.
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Originally Posted by biminiblue
Alcoholism is only a lifelong disease if I'm drinking. Once I no longer drink, it's no longer an issue.
See what I mean about binary?
See what I mean about binary?
Otherwise there is no "one day at a time."
See what I mean?
MCESaint
I guess we can agree to disagree on this, because no. I don't see what you mean.
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I guess for myself I need to clarify and say this. Recovery is a long road. Not one that happens overnight. However, I do not believe if you are blaming everyone but yourself you can even begin. Just my opinion.
As far as saying someone is a good or a bad parent, my comment to this would be that I don't think it's even possible to be a good parent if you have not even begun recovery. Also my opinion.
In my world, you have kids and they become #1. Their needs before yours. You had them, so you are responsible for them, and to what is best for them. I will also clarify one more thing. I am sure the children are taken care of. I am more talking about their emotional well being. If she is running them down, etc, that is not taking care of their, or her, emotions.
I am sorry if any of this is harsh or hurtful, it's not meant to be, as I know it's painful to watch those you care about go down the rabbit hole of addiction.
I truly hope that she gets the help she needs so she can absolutely become the person she needs to be, the children need her to be, and you need her to be.
As far as saying someone is a good or a bad parent, my comment to this would be that I don't think it's even possible to be a good parent if you have not even begun recovery. Also my opinion.
In my world, you have kids and they become #1. Their needs before yours. You had them, so you are responsible for them, and to what is best for them. I will also clarify one more thing. I am sure the children are taken care of. I am more talking about their emotional well being. If she is running them down, etc, that is not taking care of their, or her, emotions.
I am sorry if any of this is harsh or hurtful, it's not meant to be, as I know it's painful to watch those you care about go down the rabbit hole of addiction.
I truly hope that she gets the help she needs so she can absolutely become the person she needs to be, the children need her to be, and you need her to be.
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