fiance went to court yesterday
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Addiction is addiction, whether it's alcohol or heroin. Both drive people to do insanely stupid and dangerous things like your fiancee did. If it makes you feel any better, though, she can go to AA meetings when she gets out, which are focused strictly on alcoholism. There are slight differences in the EXPERIENCE of alcoholics and those addicted to other drugs--for instance, you don't have to go to dangerous parts of town and buy your substance from someone who might be carrying a gun, but believe me, alcoholics can debase themselves just as effectively as other addicts. Alcoholics are not "better" or "worse" than someone addicted to drugs.
This is another bit of that "terminal uniqueness" we keep talking about. Your fiancee is a DRUNK. That's the bottom line. People who just "drink too much" don't drink and then get behind the wheel of a school bus. They might pour themselves too many drinks in the evening, or have a tendency to overdo it at a party, but drinking during the day when you have responsibility for the welfare of children is something that sane people do not do. Alcoholism is a form of insanity. Not in the legal or medical sense--but for all practical purposes, the alcoholic is insane when it comes to drinking.
Alcoholics and other addicts have more in common than they have differences. And alcoholics in general--whatever their financial or social circumstances--have more in common than they have differences, when it comes to drinking. I've heard people share at my AA meetings who have done hard time in prison (one person was on death row before capital punishment was abolished in NJ, and another did time for killing someone in a fight), and when they share about how they FELT about alcohol--what it DID for them--their experiences mirror my own. I didn't drink in the same places they did, but I felt the same way about my relationship with alcohol.
And, yes, I think you would be VERY wise to make good use of this time when she is in rehab to educate yourself about what you will be dealing with when she comes out. If the very best happens, and she decides to stay sober, early sobriety is very challenging for both parties in a relationship. And if she DOESN'T stay sober, you need to know what you can expect then, too.
This is another bit of that "terminal uniqueness" we keep talking about. Your fiancee is a DRUNK. That's the bottom line. People who just "drink too much" don't drink and then get behind the wheel of a school bus. They might pour themselves too many drinks in the evening, or have a tendency to overdo it at a party, but drinking during the day when you have responsibility for the welfare of children is something that sane people do not do. Alcoholism is a form of insanity. Not in the legal or medical sense--but for all practical purposes, the alcoholic is insane when it comes to drinking.
Alcoholics and other addicts have more in common than they have differences. And alcoholics in general--whatever their financial or social circumstances--have more in common than they have differences, when it comes to drinking. I've heard people share at my AA meetings who have done hard time in prison (one person was on death row before capital punishment was abolished in NJ, and another did time for killing someone in a fight), and when they share about how they FELT about alcohol--what it DID for them--their experiences mirror my own. I didn't drink in the same places they did, but I felt the same way about my relationship with alcohol.
And, yes, I think you would be VERY wise to make good use of this time when she is in rehab to educate yourself about what you will be dealing with when she comes out. If the very best happens, and she decides to stay sober, early sobriety is very challenging for both parties in a relationship. And if she DOESN'T stay sober, you need to know what you can expect then, too.
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Not much to add to the wisdom you've already received here. It sounds to me like you're making a lot of excuses for her. Rationalizing the terrible choice she made. Are you unable to feel empathy for the children on that bus and their parents? You DO realize that she could well have killed all of them? I heard an AA speaker once talk about the insanity of alcoholism. He said, "I drove drunk. That means I was willing to kill you, and you, and you, and you." Your fiance was willing to kill a busload of kids and possibly others because of her disease. You can't seem to grasp that and continue to describe her as a "nonviolent offender." Her actions have much more potential for violence than you're willing to acknowledge. She is not a bad person. She has a disease. And it happens to be a disease that lies to you by telling you you don't have a disease. So until she admits she has the disease, she can't be sober. It doesn't sound like she--or you--are there yet.
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Originally Posted by ihatealcohol80 
Is it a wise idea to place jobless heroin addicts with someone who drinks too much? I'm not trying to be snarky but really don't understand the rehab process. I am a very logical person and I can't seem to understand it.
Rehabs are all different. The one my husband went to didnt ask him to do chores and they would never use this as a tool in recovery. I dont think you will find anything evidence based about this. And its also a little biased to presume All people who suffer with addiction need to learn humility, how to be submissive, or heal their self centered ways. Nothing evidence based about these concepts either. Having said that, it depends on her overall personality as to how she absorbs the rehab and if its meeting her needs, and helping her be open to treatment. Some people do need structure because it has been lacking in their life. They might feel a sense of accomplishment or of belonging to a group through such exercises. Others will feel minimized or like they are being punished. My husband would not have done well in a work rehab type environment.
Id look more closely at the actual treatment she is receiving for her addiction. If this follows evidence based practices suggested by National Institute of Drug Abuse, and shes getting lots of individual attention then its still probably ok.
I also think I know what you mean about the other various clients being treated. On one level everyone suffers from an addiction, but to relate to others, for me at least I find people with whom I have more things in common in terms of life experiences, sharing of common beliefs, well it makes it easier for me to relate to their experiences and take something from it. If a person has a totally different life than I can possibly imagine then I can listen but still feel removed from their experience. So I think its not so much the type of drug used, but the varying degrees of life experiences, and overall social cultures we come from which makes a difference. My husband was in rehab with people using different substances but there were more commonalities in their social culture.
Good Luck on Family Day next week. Hope it helps.
oh, heres a podcast from the author of the book Inside Rehab. Anne Fletcher. She had a discussion over at Smart Recovery and they released it in a podcast. It might show some insights. I read her book and it was good. You can listen to it for free (of course) just by clicking on the Smart Recovery Podcast button. Webinar: ?Inside Rehab? with Anne Fletcher | SMART Recovery®
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Thank you blue chair . I think you understand my point of view. Now let me be blunt, she is with ex prostitutes in rehab! How is she suppose to relate to that? No one was injured in her incident and I believe it's time to move on. I would like more personal stories And maybe less judgements.
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Hello there, I've been following your threads and don't have anything to add to all the great advice and shared experiences of other members. But I do have a question a few others have asked as well. Don't YOU care that she could've killed a busload of children? You said in your other thread, "I love her, I don't care what she did". Really? Did you mean you truly don't care that she drove so drunk she couldn't walk properly with all those kids in her bus?
You sound like a reasonable person caught up in the insanity of a loved one's alcoholism. I hope you did not mean that the way you wrote it. Maybe you have not mentioned your reaction since your posts focus on her?
I hope your fiance chooses to seek sobriety and that you learn truly constructive ways to relate to her.
You sound like a reasonable person caught up in the insanity of a loved one's alcoholism. I hope you did not mean that the way you wrote it. Maybe you have not mentioned your reaction since your posts focus on her?
I hope your fiance chooses to seek sobriety and that you learn truly constructive ways to relate to her.
Last edited by 53500; 06-20-2015 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Extra word
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I gave you personal stories, and so have other people. You just don't like them, because they don't fit your picture of what is really going on in this situation.
We ARE speaking from experience. We aren't just random people who hang out on a recovery site for kicks so we can pick on people with problems we don't understand. We TOTALLY understand what you and she are going through. It isn't a picnic for either one of you.
Our SUGGESTION is that the way you are approaching this will not serve either one of you.
We ARE speaking from experience. We aren't just random people who hang out on a recovery site for kicks so we can pick on people with problems we don't understand. We TOTALLY understand what you and she are going through. It isn't a picnic for either one of you.
Our SUGGESTION is that the way you are approaching this will not serve either one of you.
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BlueChair, though I respect your opinion it seems in these matters that you always come across as a contrarian. In and of itself, that's not a problem, and could sometimes be useful. In this case, however, I wonder if you're not using ihate's problem as a way to push your agenda. That agenda being that want to show people another way to look at recovery. Again, I get it.
In the is case, however, I think you're choosing to overlook some vital points. ihate has mentioned countless times that his fiancé doesn't relate to other addicts, and doesn't acknowledge that what she did was monumentally wrong. Surely you would agree that that doesn't forebode well for her recovery. She doesn't want it! Maybe she will some day, but if we're to take his posts at face value she doesn't yet. No recovery method can work if the person doesn't want it.
Which brings us to ihatealcohol himself. What is best for him.
You've given your opinion of rehabs a few times, and I think you give good advice. I do, however, think your advice could be summed up by saying "Go to the best rehabs for the best outcome." In other words, "Open up your wallet and be prepared to pay top dollar." On a woman who has yet to show remorse!
BlueChair, You're giving this advise to a man that isn't even married yet! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit irresponsible of you. Engagement is the time when we should be thinking about whether or not we can spend the rest of our lives with a person. They have no "contract" yet. Why should he be spending top dollar on her? Why should he spend one dime on her recovery? They're not married. Is this the advice that you would give an unmarried child or friend of yours? To spend top dollar on someone who they're not married to, and who doesn't want sobriety?
In the is case, however, I think you're choosing to overlook some vital points. ihate has mentioned countless times that his fiancé doesn't relate to other addicts, and doesn't acknowledge that what she did was monumentally wrong. Surely you would agree that that doesn't forebode well for her recovery. She doesn't want it! Maybe she will some day, but if we're to take his posts at face value she doesn't yet. No recovery method can work if the person doesn't want it.
Which brings us to ihatealcohol himself. What is best for him.
You've given your opinion of rehabs a few times, and I think you give good advice. I do, however, think your advice could be summed up by saying "Go to the best rehabs for the best outcome." In other words, "Open up your wallet and be prepared to pay top dollar." On a woman who has yet to show remorse!
BlueChair, You're giving this advise to a man that isn't even married yet! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit irresponsible of you. Engagement is the time when we should be thinking about whether or not we can spend the rest of our lives with a person. They have no "contract" yet. Why should he be spending top dollar on her? Why should he spend one dime on her recovery? They're not married. Is this the advice that you would give an unmarried child or friend of yours? To spend top dollar on someone who they're not married to, and who doesn't want sobriety?
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Originally Posted by ihatealcohol80
Thank you blue chair . I think you understand my point of view. Now let me be blunt, she is with ex prostitutes in rehab! How is she suppose to relate to that? No one was injured in her incident and I believe it's time to move on. I would like more personal stories And maybe less judgements.
I did tell you my story. I am not blaming anyone but me. I did do the deed, I did get into a car after having 7 beers. I didn't injure anyone either, except for myself. I am not talking about the consequences here. I lost my license for 7 months, had to pay a lot of fees, but the consequence many of us here are talking about is she could have killed kids, or other people. The car is a weapon. It weighs what 4000 lbs, coming at you at 60 mph? What does a bus weigh?
I'll admit, I drove drunk more then a few times, I never did it with kids in my car, and I have to admit, I thought I was that terminally unique person who would never hit another car or kill someone else.
That could have happened at any time.
Don't know, guess lots of people drive around drunk and don't give a damn. Then it's just like, well I didn't hit a car or get arrested. I don't think many even think of the lives involved when you get behind a steering wheel drunk. I do now. I didn't when I was drunk driving. There are people on the newcomers or alcoholism section who have killed people.
I don;t know what else to say.
I'm at a loss.
amy
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Originally Posted by SeriousKarma
BlueChair, though I respect your opinion it seems in these matters that you always come across as a contrarian. In and of itself, that's not a problem, and could sometimes be useful. In this case, however, I wonder if you're not using ihate's problem as a way to push your agenda. That agenda being that want to show people another way to look at recovery. Again, I get it.
In the is case, however, I think you're choosing to overlook some vital points. ihate has mentioned countless times that his fiancé doesn't relate to other addicts, and doesn't acknowledge that what she did was monumentally wrong. Surely you would agree that that doesn't forebode well for her recovery. She doesn't want it! Maybe she will some day, but if we're to take his posts at face value she doesn't yet. No recovery method can work if the person doesn't want it.
Which brings us to ihatealcohol himself. What is best for him.
You've given your opinion of rehabs a few times, and I think you give good advice. I do, however, think your advice could be summed up by saying "Go to the best rehabs for the best outcome." In other words, "Open up your wallet and be prepared to pay top dollar." On a woman who has yet to show remorse!
BlueChair, You're giving this advise to a man that isn't even married yet! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit irresponsible of you. Engagement is the time when we should be thinking about whether or not we can spend the rest of our lives with a person. They have no "contract" yet. Why should he be spending top dollar on her? Why should he spend one dime on her recovery? They're not married. Is this the advice that you would give an unmarried child or friend of yours? To spend top dollar on someone who they're not married to, and who doesn't want sobriety?
In the is case, however, I think you're choosing to overlook some vital points. ihate has mentioned countless times that his fiancé doesn't relate to other addicts, and doesn't acknowledge that what she did was monumentally wrong. Surely you would agree that that doesn't forebode well for her recovery. She doesn't want it! Maybe she will some day, but if we're to take his posts at face value she doesn't yet. No recovery method can work if the person doesn't want it.
Which brings us to ihatealcohol himself. What is best for him.
You've given your opinion of rehabs a few times, and I think you give good advice. I do, however, think your advice could be summed up by saying "Go to the best rehabs for the best outcome." In other words, "Open up your wallet and be prepared to pay top dollar." On a woman who has yet to show remorse!
BlueChair, You're giving this advise to a man that isn't even married yet! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit irresponsible of you. Engagement is the time when we should be thinking about whether or not we can spend the rest of our lives with a person. They have no "contract" yet. Why should he be spending top dollar on her? Why should he spend one dime on her recovery? They're not married. Is this the advice that you would give an unmarried child or friend of yours? To spend top dollar on someone who they're not married to, and who doesn't want sobriety?
I dont work a 12 step program and have different views than some people here. its not being contrary, its expressing my opinions.
Ive been trying to answer his questions. The ones he asks. Not making assumptions about him, his fiance, or trying to tell him what her outcome will be at the end of the day, month year.
Im not trying to fix him, or put him on my path. Im answering the questions he asks, and sharing my experience.
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Reading this thread has got me confused.
It's hard to know where to draw the line with helping. I see the advice of BlueChair regarding family support and involvement leading to better outcomes, but surely the addicted person has to meet you half way. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if family members can't afford to send their loved one to the very best rehab? Is AA and one on one psychological treatment post rehab not a good enough option for people?
BlueChair, can you point me in the direction of the evidence based research your are referring to... I am genuinely interested.
Sorry to hijack your post OP, I can see you want to support your fiancé but to me it sounds like she isn't meeting you half way. I would think that although it is beneficial to have a family involved in the treatment process, her addiction remains hers. She doesn't really seem all that motivated to make changes at this point. I don't know how you can 'work' with that. It must feel very tiring for you at this point.
It's hard to know where to draw the line with helping. I see the advice of BlueChair regarding family support and involvement leading to better outcomes, but surely the addicted person has to meet you half way. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if family members can't afford to send their loved one to the very best rehab? Is AA and one on one psychological treatment post rehab not a good enough option for people?
BlueChair, can you point me in the direction of the evidence based research your are referring to... I am genuinely interested.
Sorry to hijack your post OP, I can see you want to support your fiancé but to me it sounds like she isn't meeting you half way. I would think that although it is beneficial to have a family involved in the treatment process, her addiction remains hers. She doesn't really seem all that motivated to make changes at this point. I don't know how you can 'work' with that. It must feel very tiring for you at this point.
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I always thought salvation army was for skid row homeless types. I am financially comfortable and willing to pay to get results. I blame a lot of my finances drinking in growing up in a abusive household.
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Originally Posted by ihatealcohol80
Shockingly, she admitted to morning drinking for months prior.
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Ihatealcohol, please understand this: No amount of money can get "results" if she doesn't want to get sober!! Nothing will get results if she doesn't want them--not the best rehab in the world, the best counselor, the best fiance, the best husband, the best kids. Nothing. And from what you've said, she doesn't seem to want recovery for herself. She just wants to avoid jail time.
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Originally Posted by maybear
Reading this thread has got me confused.
It's hard to know where to draw the line with helping. I see the advice of BlueChair regarding family support and involvement leading to better outcomes, but surely the addicted person has to meet you half way. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if family members can't afford to send their loved one to the very best rehab? Is AA and one on one psychological treatment post rehab not a good enough option for people?
BlueChair, can you point me in the direction of the evidence based research your are referring to... I am genuinely interested.
Sorry to hijack your post OP, I can see you want to support your fiancé but to me it sounds like she isn't meeting you half way. I would think that although it is beneficial to have a family involved in the treatment process, her addiction remains hers. She doesn't really seem all that motivated to make changes at this point. I don't know how you can 'work' with that. It must feel very tiring for you at this point.
It's hard to know where to draw the line with helping. I see the advice of BlueChair regarding family support and involvement leading to better outcomes, but surely the addicted person has to meet you half way. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if family members can't afford to send their loved one to the very best rehab? Is AA and one on one psychological treatment post rehab not a good enough option for people?
BlueChair, can you point me in the direction of the evidence based research your are referring to... I am genuinely interested.
Sorry to hijack your post OP, I can see you want to support your fiancé but to me it sounds like she isn't meeting you half way. I would think that although it is beneficial to have a family involved in the treatment process, her addiction remains hers. She doesn't really seem all that motivated to make changes at this point. I don't know how you can 'work' with that. It must feel very tiring for you at this point.
Patients & Families | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)
No one treatment or program works for everyone, but there are guidelines issued.
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I did have a brief conversation with a highly esteemed addiction psychiatrist. He informed me that family support is the key and tough love can kill the alcoholic. I notified when her parents flew across country to visit her mood improve.
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ihatealcohol80,
I'm glad you're back and updating us on your situation. I think you should go with your gut on this situation, if you think she belongs in rehab, then that's where she should stay. Between the two of you, who do you think is capable of making a better decision at this time?
It's obvious how much you love her and want to help her. The problem with my own situation is that I was only thinking with my heart and not my head, and therefore I wasn't making the best choices. The people on this board helped me see things from a different perspective. At times they were able to see things more clearly than I was because I was smack in the middle of the storm and my head was spinning. If some form of advice is helpful, take it. If not, leave it behind. As we say, take what you need and leave the rest.
One other thing and I say this as gently as possible: you mentioned that you don't appreciate the judgment you feel you have received on this board. I'm not sure you're aware of this but when you complain about your fiancé being with heroin addicts and ex prostitutes, it seems like you're passing judgment on them. I think that's what some of the posters are trying to point out. The people in her rehab are going through their own struggles and sometimes we learn the most when we are pushed out of our comfort zone. This may be a wake up call for her, to see firsthand how low people can go with an addiction. ( I apologize if this statement upsets you as that was not my intent).
I pray that she sobers up and begins to work on her recovery. Also, don't forget to take care of yourself. It's very easy to let our loved ones troubles consume our lives. Try to rest and do something positive for yourself, it will help to clear your mind and recharge your batteries. Wishing you and your fiancé the best.
I'm glad you're back and updating us on your situation. I think you should go with your gut on this situation, if you think she belongs in rehab, then that's where she should stay. Between the two of you, who do you think is capable of making a better decision at this time?
It's obvious how much you love her and want to help her. The problem with my own situation is that I was only thinking with my heart and not my head, and therefore I wasn't making the best choices. The people on this board helped me see things from a different perspective. At times they were able to see things more clearly than I was because I was smack in the middle of the storm and my head was spinning. If some form of advice is helpful, take it. If not, leave it behind. As we say, take what you need and leave the rest.
One other thing and I say this as gently as possible: you mentioned that you don't appreciate the judgment you feel you have received on this board. I'm not sure you're aware of this but when you complain about your fiancé being with heroin addicts and ex prostitutes, it seems like you're passing judgment on them. I think that's what some of the posters are trying to point out. The people in her rehab are going through their own struggles and sometimes we learn the most when we are pushed out of our comfort zone. This may be a wake up call for her, to see firsthand how low people can go with an addiction. ( I apologize if this statement upsets you as that was not my intent).
I pray that she sobers up and begins to work on her recovery. Also, don't forget to take care of yourself. It's very easy to let our loved ones troubles consume our lives. Try to rest and do something positive for yourself, it will help to clear your mind and recharge your batteries. Wishing you and your fiancé the best.
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Originally Posted by ihatealcohol80
I did have a brief conversation with a highly esteemed addiction psychiatrist. He informed me that family support is the key and tough love can kill the alcoholic. I notified when her parents flew across country to visit her mood improve.
You'll find arguments to support or contradict every program. I know people who have said it's the tough love that saved them. The right program for your fiancé will be the one that works for HER. But there will be no shortcuts to recovery, at some point she will have to do the work in whatever program she is in.
Last edited by Sara21; 06-20-2015 at 08:15 PM. Reason: corrections
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I know it's easy to judge, but actually any way you look at it, there is no denying that driving a schools bus drunk, endangering the lives of those little people, is absolutely awful. It is worrying that neither you or her are really grasping that.
ihate, FYI, as far as I know, money and good looks may help you keep up appearances but they don't overcome addiction.
ihate, FYI, as far as I know, money and good looks may help you keep up appearances but they don't overcome addiction.
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