Extended vent - couples session today
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
These posts are really triggering for me, because I'm hearing are the excuses that my STBXAH made about why he shouldn't be expected to be nice or thoughtful to me on holidays, and why his attempts at recovery often seemed to be AT me instead of just being about himself and HIS life. I feel like I'm talking to my STBXAH's doppelganger -- and my sickness will have me telling him off in my mind for years, probably. I'll try to shut up after this but I do feel like you're missing some major touchpoints and making excuses about why you shouldn't need to address them. Take what you want and leave the rest.
Your wife, I'm sure, is no innocent. But you're the one on the message board asking for input, so let's talk about your behavior.
It really stinks to be under the microscope of someone who is emotionally deregulated -- and I'm saying this as a codependent who spent years psycho-analyzing everyone else in order to avoid MY OWN problems, learned from my sick and codependent parents who still have me under their microscope. It was also my ex's problem as someone who 1) looked to me as the easiest fountain of excuses to use alcohol and drugs and abandon the family every time he needed to get high, and 2) in his later sobriety wanted to punish me for expressing my thoughts and feelings about being affected by his disease, and looked for every opportunity to be offended by my strides towards emotional health. I believe your hyper-focus on her is toxic -- to her, to your kids, and to yourself.
My ex used to say stuff like this to me all the time, but here's the catch: I never got the compliments or the gifts. Every time I dressed up, turned to him for affection or had an achievement, he purposely withheld compliments and said it was too hard for him to express positive things in my direction. Personally, this is immature and mean-spirited. Snapping the rubber band during marital counseling while she's talking? Unless I missed something, that's a foul ball. I'm surprised a therapist let that happen in the office. Deciding at the last minute to withhold a gift for her on Mother's Day while you are ostensibly trying to work on your marriage, because you're ticked about how you were treated as an active addict? Or how you are being treated now that you're sober and openly unwilling to stay on your side of the street? Foul ball.
We learn here that our feelings aren't facts, and how holding others hostage for our own internal turmoil is INHERENTLY toxic to families and relationships. Are you holding your wife in emotional hostage? I don't need to know the answer -- it's a rhetorical question. My husband held me hostage in his disease, and later in his sobriety, and it was soul-killing. He never got the dose of humility needed while we were together to treat me as a full and complete human being who experienced the horrific roller coaster of an addicted marriage -- I remained a mirror reflecting his perceived failure and disappointments back at him. Did your addiction rip the rug out from underneath her? I'm hearing her say she's trying to get over it -- will you let her? My only option was to leave him so I could experience a full and complete human life without his negative and selfish feelings about me, life, himself, work, career, parenting, and mental health ruling the household.
Your wife, I'm sure, is no innocent. But you're the one on the message board asking for input, so let's talk about your behavior.
It really stinks to be under the microscope of someone who is emotionally deregulated -- and I'm saying this as a codependent who spent years psycho-analyzing everyone else in order to avoid MY OWN problems, learned from my sick and codependent parents who still have me under their microscope. It was also my ex's problem as someone who 1) looked to me as the easiest fountain of excuses to use alcohol and drugs and abandon the family every time he needed to get high, and 2) in his later sobriety wanted to punish me for expressing my thoughts and feelings about being affected by his disease, and looked for every opportunity to be offended by my strides towards emotional health. I believe your hyper-focus on her is toxic -- to her, to your kids, and to yourself.
If I do something nice for her on Mother's Day, it has to be real.
We learn here that our feelings aren't facts, and how holding others hostage for our own internal turmoil is INHERENTLY toxic to families and relationships. Are you holding your wife in emotional hostage? I don't need to know the answer -- it's a rhetorical question. My husband held me hostage in his disease, and later in his sobriety, and it was soul-killing. He never got the dose of humility needed while we were together to treat me as a full and complete human being who experienced the horrific roller coaster of an addicted marriage -- I remained a mirror reflecting his perceived failure and disappointments back at him. Did your addiction rip the rug out from underneath her? I'm hearing her say she's trying to get over it -- will you let her? My only option was to leave him so I could experience a full and complete human life without his negative and selfish feelings about me, life, himself, work, career, parenting, and mental health ruling the household.
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,915
I just can't understand all the interaction between the two of you if you are supposed to be separated. You each have issues to work on, so it seems to me that you should both back off unless communication is necessary regarding the kids. Other than that, keeping this back and forth daily emailing sounds like not much more than bitch sessions, and "marriage counseling" should come later after you each decide if you want the marriage to continue.
I agree with Florence about the rubber band thing during your sessions with the counselor. It's one thing to use it when you are alone and start thinking too much or trying to keep from responding to an email, but to do it while you are both together is very childish, in my opinion.
I agree with Florence about the rubber band thing during your sessions with the counselor. It's one thing to use it when you are alone and start thinking too much or trying to keep from responding to an email, but to do it while you are both together is very childish, in my opinion.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
I think your wife based on your posts tried to say she wanted space, and IMO said it perfectly fine. It seemed you didn't like that she wanted a separation and you've sounded, IMO very resentful of her request as well as her not giving you a definite answer about when or if this separation would end.
I hear a lot of black and white ultimatums in your posts. If she won't do this then I won't do that stuff...
You're well within your right to not give her flowers but you, not she are the one drawing lines in the sand IMO.
She's asked for a separation and your statement that she can't have it both ways reminds me far far too much of my xAH. If I tried to set boundaries for myself and still hoped that he could be decent to me I was told I couldn't have it both ways.
Your wife has said pretty clearly what things matter to her-- you making some gestures, efforts, "dating" and trying to rebuild things between you both. It's fine that you don't want to give her that kind of behavior bc you're upset with her but you also have to realize you can't have it both ways ie: you can't want to make your marriage work and end the separation but also punish your wife for wanting the separation....
Like Florence I find myself somewhat confused/triggered by your posts and I will bow out now. I think since you're in recovery for your substance abuse you might get some value from the A board too.
I hope you and your wife can find a way to work out your individual stuff and make it work between you if that's what you want.
I wish you all the best...
I hear a lot of black and white ultimatums in your posts. If she won't do this then I won't do that stuff...
You're well within your right to not give her flowers but you, not she are the one drawing lines in the sand IMO.
She's asked for a separation and your statement that she can't have it both ways reminds me far far too much of my xAH. If I tried to set boundaries for myself and still hoped that he could be decent to me I was told I couldn't have it both ways.
Your wife has said pretty clearly what things matter to her-- you making some gestures, efforts, "dating" and trying to rebuild things between you both. It's fine that you don't want to give her that kind of behavior bc you're upset with her but you also have to realize you can't have it both ways ie: you can't want to make your marriage work and end the separation but also punish your wife for wanting the separation....
Like Florence I find myself somewhat confused/triggered by your posts and I will bow out now. I think since you're in recovery for your substance abuse you might get some value from the A board too.
I hope you and your wife can find a way to work out your individual stuff and make it work between you if that's what you want.
I wish you all the best...
Originally Posted by DocSobrietist 
First, I'd rather obsess and over-analyze here than do it in front of my wife (which is what I'm shooting for - actually, best to just stop doing it at all, eventually).
Second, it's difficult to feel like getting my wife a big Mother's Day gift is something I can do when the last 2-3 weeks have been all about pushing me away. Separate, don't talk to me, anger, etc. But I want you to get me flowers? If I do something nice for her on Mother's Day, it has to be real. And she can't have it both ways. All I had in me was giving her a card. I had nothing else right now. That's unfortunate, I feel bad about it, but I'm not going to blame myself for it or feel guilty about it - it's unfortunate, that's it. But it's where I am right now.
-DrS
Second, it's difficult to feel like getting my wife a big Mother's Day gift is something I can do when the last 2-3 weeks have been all about pushing me away. Separate, don't talk to me, anger, etc. But I want you to get me flowers? If I do something nice for her on Mother's Day, it has to be real. And she can't have it both ways. All I had in me was giving her a card. I had nothing else right now. That's unfortunate, I feel bad about it, but I'm not going to blame myself for it or feel guilty about it - it's unfortunate, that's it. But it's where I am right now.
-DrS
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 20,458
If you keep shouting, yapping and snapping during your couples therapy, I doubt she will want to continue, i wouldn't. You do not have the right to be so rude....even if you don't mean to be, it comes across that way.
You have VERY young children, you stated that they were between ages 4 and 6. They could not go shopping by themselves for Mommy, but they knew it was mother's day.
it would have gone a long way if you took them to the store to pick out a couple of small plants....it was about them, not you.
You have VERY young children, you stated that they were between ages 4 and 6. They could not go shopping by themselves for Mommy, but they knew it was mother's day.
it would have gone a long way if you took them to the store to pick out a couple of small plants....it was about them, not you.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I do have to say, even my X who I am in the process of divorcing took my kids to get me a mothers day gift. I thanked him very much along with them. He said that no matter what happens between us that I have always been a great mom and deserve to know that on mothers day.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciated that and I know my kids did too. I also think it's important for the kids to see that together or separate, that the parents can get along and still support each other as parents.
Just my two cents......however I am giving Doc a break on this. He seems overwhelmed and not quite sure what to do next. It's a lot to be happening all at one time.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciated that and I know my kids did too. I also think it's important for the kids to see that together or separate, that the parents can get along and still support each other as parents.
Just my two cents......however I am giving Doc a break on this. He seems overwhelmed and not quite sure what to do next. It's a lot to be happening all at one time.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,393
Originally Posted by Aeryn
FYI I didn't read and analyze every post before I made mine (sorry got too much going on to do that) I wasn't aware there was such a rule to avoid a "repeat" (I guess I didn't know others had my exact same situation and ESH - LOL....thanks for the info!) - hahaha omg and it's not worth it for me to try to figure out so if it repeated it repeated people will get over it or not, it's my personal ESH for people to take or leave. I'm so glad I'm out of the alcoholic insanity, the thread just sort of reminds me of it. Gotta step out and back to positivity.
Doc - Wish you and your wife the best in whatever path you take. And good for you for realizing your sobriety comes first.
Doc - Wish you and your wife the best in whatever path you take. And good for you for realizing your sobriety comes first.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
I appreciate everyone's perspective.
I understand that there's a lot in my posts that are triggering to F&F denizens. That's OK - there's something to learn even from that. I have actually found everyone's perspective really helpful here - there's been something useful I've been able to gain from pretty much every one of you.
Thank you.
-DrS
I understand that there's a lot in my posts that are triggering to F&F denizens. That's OK - there's something to learn even from that. I have actually found everyone's perspective really helpful here - there's been something useful I've been able to gain from pretty much every one of you.
Thank you.
-DrS
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
my 1st ex, my daughter's dad, always took her to get mom something for birthdays, Christmas and mom's day. he went so far as to give her his Mariners tickets so she could take me to the ballgame on mom's day. that tradition started when she was 8.
she is now 31 - her dad passed away many years ago. guess where WE went on mom's day??? to the ballpark! he helped create a wonderful tradition that so sadly outlived him. pretty amazing gift.
she is now 31 - her dad passed away many years ago. guess where WE went on mom's day??? to the ballpark! he helped create a wonderful tradition that so sadly outlived him. pretty amazing gift.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by hopeful4
I am giving Doc a break on this. He seems overwhelmed and not quite sure what to do next. It's a lot to be happening all at one time.
My wife had a birthday about a week and a half before Mother's day. This was before she sprung the separation thing on me.
I got her a very nice gift from Teavana plus some loose tea. She said she really, really liked it. It was a nice night, we cuddled on the couch, watched a movie. Cuddled in bed. It felt good. Then a few days later she was telling me she didn't want to speak to me on a 1:1 basis at all and wanted to separate. We then had a terrible fight and she stormed out of the house. I found myself later in a hotel room convinced that we were going to be one of those divorced couples who only communicated by fax. Then we were speaking again, and just separating, supposedly working on the marriage. Then it's Mother's Day. Although I at one point signed up for an FTD account and my finger hovered over the "submit" button to get her a bouquet for Mother's Day - I just got her a card. She wanted the flowers.
I have no idea what to do. I am definitely overwhelmed.
In terms of the rubber band thing - I don't think I can stop doing it right now just cold. If I stopped it just because it might make my wife mad, but it helped me, that would be kind of codependent and shoot myself in the foot besides.
I didn't start doing the thought-stopping as a way to spite her. I may research some alternative ways to accomplish the task, however. If it's possible to do the same thing without snapping the band when I'm around her, I would certainly be willing to try an alternative method out.
-DrS
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 20,458
What did her children bring for her?
Like I said, it wasn't about YOU, but them and wanting to bring Mommy a gift. at ages 4 and 6 how do you think they feel. Do you bother to consider them?
You talk a lot about you and what you think your wife "should" be doing...maybe she has made some decisions about not wanting to be married..
But you are both still parents and you might want to put some of your obsessive energy towards your kids too....they are innocent victims who are probably confused and want security in their world.
Like I said, it wasn't about YOU, but them and wanting to bring Mommy a gift. at ages 4 and 6 how do you think they feel. Do you bother to consider them?
You talk a lot about you and what you think your wife "should" be doing...maybe she has made some decisions about not wanting to be married..
But you are both still parents and you might want to put some of your obsessive energy towards your kids too....they are innocent victims who are probably confused and want security in their world.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
In terms of the rubber band thing - I don't think I can stop doing it right now just cold. If I stopped it just because it might make my wife mad, but it helped me, that would be kind of codependent and shoot myself in the foot besides.
I didn't start doing the thought-stopping as a way to spite her. I may research some alternative ways to accomplish the task, however. If it's possible to do the same thing without snapping the band when I'm around her, I would certainly be willing to try an alternative method out.
I didn't start doing the thought-stopping as a way to spite her. I may research some alternative ways to accomplish the task, however. If it's possible to do the same thing without snapping the band when I'm around her, I would certainly be willing to try an alternative method out.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
Originally Posted by DocSobrietist
In terms of the rubber band thing - I don't think I can stop doing it right now just cold. If I stopped it just because it might make my wife mad, but it helped me, that would be kind of codependent and shoot myself in the foot besides.
I didn't start doing the thought-stopping as a way to spite her. I may research some alternative ways to accomplish the task, however. If it's possible to do the same thing without snapping the band when I'm around her, I would certainly be willing to try an alternative method out.
-DrS
I didn't start doing the thought-stopping as a way to spite her. I may research some alternative ways to accomplish the task, however. If it's possible to do the same thing without snapping the band when I'm around her, I would certainly be willing to try an alternative method out.
-DrS
It's not really about "making your wife mad". It's about being present and giving your full attention to what's going on in the moment instead of purely focusing on yourself and what's going through your head. You're so busy reacting to what she says and does that you're not even giving your brain time to absorb it in a rational manner.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by Fandy
What did her children bring for her?
Originally Posted by Fandy
Like I said, it wasn't about YOU, but them and wanting to bring Mommy a gift. at ages 4 and 6 how do you think they feel. Do you bother to consider them?
Originally Posted by Fandy
You talk a lot about you and what you think your wife "should" be doing...
Originally Posted by Fandy
maybe she has made some decisions about not wanting to be married..
Originally Posted by Fandy
But you are both still parents and you might want to put some of your obsessive energy towards your kids too....they are innocent victims who are probably confused and want security in their world.
Better to put out my negative thoughts here than to act them out without thinking, I suppose.
-DrS
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by readerbaby71
The rubber band thing isn't really meant to be used when having a conversation with someone. There are other CBT techniques that can help when you're in therapy with your wife or talking with her. One I use frequently is just mentally telling myself "STOP" as many times as I have to when obsessive thoughts come into my head. Feelings aren't facts. I have to remind myself of this almost daily.
It's not really about "making your wife mad". It's about being present and giving your full attention to what's going on in the moment instead of purely focusing on yourself and what's going through your head. You're so busy reacting to what she says and does that you're not even giving your brain time to absorb it in a rational manner.
It's not really about "making your wife mad". It's about being present and giving your full attention to what's going on in the moment instead of purely focusing on yourself and what's going through your head. You're so busy reacting to what she says and does that you're not even giving your brain time to absorb it in a rational manner.
I will say though - I can't be focusing on what my wife is saying when I'm busy engaging in my obsessive over-analysis thing when I'm sitting with her (whether or not a counselor is also present in the room). I've been really appreciating the rubber band thing because it really snaps me (literally) back into the present when I find myself getting lost in unproductive thought.
I will look into replacing it with the covert thought-stopping method you mention here. It's a good idea.
-DrS
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by Florence
What do your counselor and/or sponsor advise?
-DrS
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Hi Doc, I just posted this in your Lingo thread in Secular Connections and I think it applies quite well here
I also posted this thanks to Readerbaby getting me looking some stuff from Pema Chodron.
I really understand the obsessive thought thing as I rented an apartment there for a long time, glad I moved out. 
I found that mindfulness (google it) is a great way to learn to deal with this.
Your friend,
From the other side of the house, Al-Anon, and I have to agree with most of what was said here.
Except for powerlessness. Now before you raise your hackles you need to know I am a half-assed Buddhist with a mindfulness practice and there is a lot of good stuff in there.
To me powerlessness means giving up the illusion of control. I can't control other people, places or things. I can't even control my own thoughts or emotions. But, what I do have is the power to make choices. When a thought pops up in my head I have the choice to follow it or not, to pay attention to it or not, to let it take over or not. When I am feeling strong emotions I have the choice to attach to that emotion and run with it or to simply let it go. When something bothers me I have the choice to let it ruin my day or simply watch it float away.
That is real power.
A great zen saying that describes this better than I can.
I am a mountain.
My thoughts and emotions are clouds.
The clouds can't move the mountain, the mountain doesn't cling to the clouds.
Hope this makes sense.
Except for powerlessness. Now before you raise your hackles you need to know I am a half-assed Buddhist with a mindfulness practice and there is a lot of good stuff in there.
To me powerlessness means giving up the illusion of control. I can't control other people, places or things. I can't even control my own thoughts or emotions. But, what I do have is the power to make choices. When a thought pops up in my head I have the choice to follow it or not, to pay attention to it or not, to let it take over or not. When I am feeling strong emotions I have the choice to attach to that emotion and run with it or to simply let it go. When something bothers me I have the choice to let it ruin my day or simply watch it float away.
That is real power.
A great zen saying that describes this better than I can.
I am a mountain.
My thoughts and emotions are clouds.
The clouds can't move the mountain, the mountain doesn't cling to the clouds.
Hope this makes sense.
Thanks Readerbaby, I wasn't familiar with any of her work. I'm usually not a fan of Tibetan Buddhism but I looked up some of her quotes and they really hit him.
This one really struck me and is exactly what I was trying to say.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”
― Pema Chödrön
This one really struck me and is exactly what I was trying to say.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”
― Pema Chödrön
I found that mindfulness (google it) is a great way to learn to deal with this.
Your friend,
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
If there's anything I gained from going to Alanon a few times it's this--no matter what I do I cannot control another person. Period. Things became a lot easier to deal with, detach from and accept since then. There is no way I would have gone forward with my personal growth as much as I have without this realization. I actually had it just from reading a few pamphlets on the concept of detachment and letting go of control.
I used to think the idea of powerlessness and the serenity prayer were ******** too. Now I get it. I'm not a 12-stepper but I took what I needed and left the rest.
There is very little we can control in life, except ourselves. Buddhism really, really helped me with accepting this.
I used to think the idea of powerlessness and the serenity prayer were ******** too. Now I get it. I'm not a 12-stepper but I took what I needed and left the rest.
There is very little we can control in life, except ourselves. Buddhism really, really helped me with accepting this.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by readerbaby71
If there's anything I gained from going to Alanon a few times it's this--no matter what I do I cannot control another person. Period. Things became a lot easier to deal with, detach from and accept since then. There is no way I would have gone forward with my personal growth as much as I have without this realization. I actually had it just from reading a few pamphlets on the concept of detachment and letting go of control.
I used to think the idea of powerlessness and the serenity prayer were ******** too. Now I get it. I'm not a 12-stepper but I took what I needed and left the rest.
There is very little we can control in life, except ourselves. Buddhism really, really helped me with accepting this.
I used to think the idea of powerlessness and the serenity prayer were ******** too. Now I get it. I'm not a 12-stepper but I took what I needed and left the rest.
There is very little we can control in life, except ourselves. Buddhism really, really helped me with accepting this.
-DrS
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
