The Focus of ALL the Attention in Life Itself
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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Originally Posted by WishingWell 
Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
I think what Ichabod is saying is that someone with an addiction is not responsible for the choices that the OTHER person makes. I think some "fixers", which is another word for codependency, can have a tendency to make everyone else's problems their job to straighten out. All the attention in fact, many times, goes to the "fixer". Who takes on a victim mentality and woe is me. Who's, in truth, actually dying from the disease of addiction? They are, the addict.
Many people with this mindset not only focus on fixing a spouse, but their kids, their friends, strangers in the street. I get that. I've been there. Until we look at ourselves in the mirror and stop pointing fingers everywhere else, we don't grow.
I think it is unfair to create this fictional divide between someone with addiction issues and someone with "fixing" issues. I hear the same complaints from my friends about their non-alcoholic spouses ALL THE TIME. "They don't listen", "It's all about them", "They're selfish." etc.
Someone here stated "They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff." Who is giving them all the attention? "We" are. That's our choice. Stop doing it. That's the goal of Alanon. Get out of their business and get into our own.
There is recovery that is needed on both sides of the street. Is this really news?
I think what Ichabod is saying is that someone with an addiction is not responsible for the choices that the OTHER person makes. I think some "fixers", which is another word for codependency, can have a tendency to make everyone else's problems their job to straighten out. All the attention in fact, many times, goes to the "fixer". Who takes on a victim mentality and woe is me. Who's, in truth, actually dying from the disease of addiction? They are, the addict.
Many people with this mindset not only focus on fixing a spouse, but their kids, their friends, strangers in the street. I get that. I've been there. Until we look at ourselves in the mirror and stop pointing fingers everywhere else, we don't grow.
I think it is unfair to create this fictional divide between someone with addiction issues and someone with "fixing" issues. I hear the same complaints from my friends about their non-alcoholic spouses ALL THE TIME. "They don't listen", "It's all about them", "They're selfish." etc.
Someone here stated "They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff." Who is giving them all the attention? "We" are. That's our choice. Stop doing it. That's the goal of Alanon. Get out of their business and get into our own.
There is recovery that is needed on both sides of the street. Is this really news?
And you obviously never met my addicted brother. The "OH woe is me, my life sucks, but nevermind I never listen to anyone's advice, ever, but let me shoot up and call you to tell you how horrible my life is so maybe you'll send me 500 bucks."
Anyone looking to say, "Don't blame it on the alcoholic," or "It's YOUR fault because you are not minding your own business," or "You're not going to Al-Anon working a program," has a rather limited view. No one is blaming anyone, that's just the way you think. Alcoholics and addicts are what they are and every one I've known is a selfish ass, to put it kindly. And acknowledging and accepting this truth is not villifying them, it's saying they're an ass. And no, they don't give a $hit about anyone, not even themselves. All they care about is drinking.
The OP is obviously having some difficulty with a selfish ass in her life right now. I don't see how your posts are helpful to her. She's entitled to complain about the selfish people in her life without you pointing your finger at her.
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Seek, your post reminds me of a line from a Bette Midler movie (Beaches?), where she plays someone who is kind of self absorbed. In one scene, Better Midler is talking to a friend about herself, and says "Well, enough about ME. What about you? What do you think about me?"
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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Originally Posted by WishingWell
Learn2Live - the people who are alcoholics in your life behave that way. Not all do. There is no need to generalize millions of people.
Do you think there is a need to do that?
Do you think there is a need to do that?
These are not generalizations we just pull out of thin air, they are behaviors, words, and actions we have all found in common.
Why does it bother you so much that people who are friends and family of alcoholics call them selfish? Or otherwise generalize about them?
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Originally Posted by ichabod
When my husband was drinking, the last thing he wanted was attention or focus. He would have preferred being left alone to do his thing in peace. I, on the other hand, made it the center of everything rather than detaching and finding my own happiness.
DH is a kind man at heart and that part never changed. As his drinking got worse, though, my emotional needs were not nearly as important to him as his drinking and I was very lonely.
DH is a kind man at heart and that part never changed. As his drinking got worse, though, my emotional needs were not nearly as important to him as his drinking and I was very lonely.
I think that some people can get to a point of absolutely being within their own world if the problem is too often and too deep for them to recognize otherwise. And I read the stat that 3-5% of all North American people are genuinely sociopathic, so maybe you've run across a few of them.
But I also think that most people who drink or drug excessively are trying to simply connect and not feel SO lonely. I've read a lot about self-medicating with alcohol or drugs and the base is often loneliness or inability to connect. I'm still struggling with this part of this scene as well, so I'm still reading a lot, on here and other places in order to understand my own boundaries with socializing with others who drink or drug excessively.
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Well, it's a recurring theme here on this board. New people come everyday amd tell their stories, and day after day they are stories of heartache, pain and destruction caused by yet another alcoholic who doesn't give a rat's ass how their attitudes and behavior affect others.
These are not generalizations we just pull out of thin air, they are behaviors, words, and actions we have all found in common.
Why does it bother you so much that people who are friends and family of alcoholics call them selfish? Or otherwise generalize about them?
These are not generalizations we just pull out of thin air, they are behaviors, words, and actions we have all found in common.
Why does it bother you so much that people who are friends and family of alcoholics call them selfish? Or otherwise generalize about them?
If telling yourself that so and so is behaving very selfishly will help you distance yourself or see things within that relationship more clearly, then it could be good to remind yourself of that. But telling a person who is already in trouble that they are selfish may backfire and take them further into self-loathing mode, causing their self-medicating mode to increase. My 2 pennies.
(edited to add)
I'm still reading a lot... but I have the idea that maybe informing the person of how much they are missing, carrying life on fully w/o them getting to be part of it, sharing solutions, etc. could be a more productive way of dealing with an excessive person. Those are the things that make me want to live clean and aware again.
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Why does it bother you so much that people who are friends and family of alcoholics call them selfish? Or otherwise generalize about them?
I once attended an anti-bias training at my job. It was very informative. The jist of it was that human brains naturally try to categorize things--people included. It's a way to cope with a very complex world by simplifying it. But, it leads us to put people in categories, which dehumanizes them to us. By putting a label on someone, like alcoholic, or redneck, or snob, or whatever, we then interact with them on the level of the label, rather than the level of another human being.
It's something our minds naturally do. By being aware of it and attempting to see beyond it we become less biased and more genuine in ALL our relationships.
L
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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That's why the alcoholics have their own board. This board is for the friends and family of alcoholics. I am an alcoholic and it doesn't bother me one bit that others call alcoholics selfish. Because I stopped drinking, realized the harm I had caused, and have worked to make amends. If it bothers you that the people you've tortured with selfishness think you're selfish, maybe you should post about that on the alcoholics forum.
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I'm not an alcoholic and it doesn't bother me if one person calls another person selfish--especially if they are. What bothers me is calling ALL alcoholics selfish. Or calling ALL rednecks stupid. Or calling ALL bikers scumbags. It's prejudice, plain and simple and it doesn't look good on anyone.
L
L
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Drunk. Yes, their brain is sick. Does continued anger change that? Fix them? Make our life better? What helps our own life change when all of our focus is on someone else? Do we want to get happier?
What's that saying . . . "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die."
I'm not going to let my husband or anyone take away my happiness 24/7. No, thanks.
The point Ichabod made was - we all have choices. True, right? A good thing! I used to give my addicted spouse all my attention. All. Getting him sober was my job. Cleaning up his mistakes, getting him healthy, helping him eat right, nagging about AA, researching addiction - all mine. Years ago, I willing gave it to him. Did it work? Hell, no. Nobody held a gun to my head and said - you have to give him your attention 24 hours a day. I signed up. I didn't think I had any choice. None.
But I did have a choice. And I've learned that, as have other people here. I had to first fall on my face and lose myself to start to change. I'm better, not perfect but infinitely happier. Instead of fighting against that idea when someone presents it - it's liberating to discover the truth in it. Handing an alcoholic a vodka bottle is not helping them. Telling someone loving an addicted person that they have to hand them all of their attention or endless anger - is not helping us, either.
Lots of scenarios can wreck havoc in our lives. We can't control other people. We can only grow and change ourselves. Is it hard? Yes. Worth it, 100%.
Seek can have a beautiful life on the other end of this!
Generalizations are never healthy and rarely if ever fair. And even worse - they keep us stuck.
What's that saying . . . "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die."
I'm not going to let my husband or anyone take away my happiness 24/7. No, thanks.
The point Ichabod made was - we all have choices. True, right? A good thing! I used to give my addicted spouse all my attention. All. Getting him sober was my job. Cleaning up his mistakes, getting him healthy, helping him eat right, nagging about AA, researching addiction - all mine. Years ago, I willing gave it to him. Did it work? Hell, no. Nobody held a gun to my head and said - you have to give him your attention 24 hours a day. I signed up. I didn't think I had any choice. None.
But I did have a choice. And I've learned that, as have other people here. I had to first fall on my face and lose myself to start to change. I'm better, not perfect but infinitely happier. Instead of fighting against that idea when someone presents it - it's liberating to discover the truth in it. Handing an alcoholic a vodka bottle is not helping them. Telling someone loving an addicted person that they have to hand them all of their attention or endless anger - is not helping us, either.
Lots of scenarios can wreck havoc in our lives. We can't control other people. We can only grow and change ourselves. Is it hard? Yes. Worth it, 100%.
Seek can have a beautiful life on the other end of this!
Generalizations are never healthy and rarely if ever fair. And even worse - they keep us stuck.
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
That's why the alcoholics have their own board. This board is for the friends and family of alcoholics. I am an alcoholic and it doesn't bother me one bit that others call alcoholics selfish. Because I stopped drinking, realized the harm I had caused, and have worked to make amends. If it bothers you that the people you've tortured with selfishness think you're selfish, maybe you should post about that on the alcoholics forum.
I truly wish you the best for your life - sounds like you've had some tough experiences and I hope that you can find peace very soon.
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I also just thought that, if you believe that alcoholism is a disease - would you tell a cancer patient or a chronic depressive person that they are behaving selfishly by talking about their disease? That may be a main reason for the varied responses to your posts.
Some here view hard alcoholism as a true disease, where the alcoholic is unable to cope on their own. Some, like me, view my own excessive alcohol give-ins as something that is actually purely self-centered habitual behaviour and something that I probably can avoid with enough courage and strength of character and mind.
That may be a big difference that I've noted while reading on this board.
Some here view hard alcoholism as a true disease, where the alcoholic is unable to cope on their own. Some, like me, view my own excessive alcohol give-ins as something that is actually purely self-centered habitual behaviour and something that I probably can avoid with enough courage and strength of character and mind.
That may be a big difference that I've noted while reading on this board.
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Both views are probably valid. There are 4 stages of addiction. In the first stages, I'm sure will power does make a huge difference to halt the process. When addiction gets to the end stages - the brain can be so severely, physically damaged that stopping is almost impossible on their own.
Again, read "Catch 22" on this page. That is a hell that no one should have to endure. Beyond heartbreaking.
Again, read "Catch 22" on this page. That is a hell that no one should have to endure. Beyond heartbreaking.
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I also just thought that, if you believe that alcoholism is a disease - would you tell a cancer patient or a chronic depressive person that they are behaving selfishly by talking about their disease?
But I think what Seek reacted to, and what prompts the "selfish" comments is that many of us who post here are involved with alcoholics who don't see anything wrong with their drinking habits. So for many of us, the parallel would more be a guy walking around with a nail through his hand complaining that his hand hurts but refusing to do anything about it.
So I think that's the other perspective.
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