The Focus of ALL the Attention in Life Itself
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The Focus of ALL the Attention in Life Itself
It just struck me, scanning this board, how the alcoholics/drug addicted people have the focus of attention on them at all times, due to the constant chaos they create. It gets old having to think about/worry about/deal with/react to whatever crazy thing they have done, are doing, or are about to do . . .
When you see them, are they concerned about you at all? Do they inquire about your well-being? Are the relationships reciprocal?
What would happen if they were the only ones on Earth (as they act as if they are) . . .and all of the rest of us just disappeared to another, more peaceful, serene planet?
When you see them, are they concerned about you at all? Do they inquire about your well-being? Are the relationships reciprocal?
What would happen if they were the only ones on Earth (as they act as if they are) . . .and all of the rest of us just disappeared to another, more peaceful, serene planet?
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This does not describe the man I live with who also happens to be an alcoholic. He doesn't put all his attention on himself - in fact the opposite. He doesn't give himself enough attention, IMO. After over 2 decades of being together I can point blank state that he's extremely concerned about me.
But yes, he does suffer with the disease of addiction.
My 2 cents - I think we can get into trouble when we generalize an entire group of people. I've heard others generalize spouses of alcoholics as "codependents" and as needy, controlling, pushy, diseased.
We're all human beings, with an assortment of personalities, flaws and "craziness". Have you ever noticed how everyone seems to think all the other people are crazy?
Perhaps if we could step back we could see each other and ourselves more clearly.
But yes, he does suffer with the disease of addiction.
My 2 cents - I think we can get into trouble when we generalize an entire group of people. I've heard others generalize spouses of alcoholics as "codependents" and as needy, controlling, pushy, diseased.
We're all human beings, with an assortment of personalities, flaws and "craziness". Have you ever noticed how everyone seems to think all the other people are crazy?
Perhaps if we could step back we could see each other and ourselves more clearly.
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Dear seek,
unless one first helps oneself, one cannot help another - one wouldn't exist and the whole purpose of a site like this is anonymous self help/moaning/crying out when need be. We are all the same really :>
unless one first helps oneself, one cannot help another - one wouldn't exist and the whole purpose of a site like this is anonymous self help/moaning/crying out when need be. We are all the same really :>
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I hear what you are saying Seek. I actually said to my AH tonight...."Sorry I wasn't able to listen to you talk about yourself with full attention, but have you even asked me about my day?"This is after I worked, heated up dinner, played with daughter, gave her a bath, got her to bed, and tried to keep my eyes open to do 4 hours of accounting work.
And yes, taking breaks during study to worry about his mental & physical health....I get what you are saying Seek.
You are just pointing out how much energy it takes to deal with the alcoholism factors in our life.
And yes, taking breaks during study to worry about his mental & physical health....I get what you are saying Seek.
You are just pointing out how much energy it takes to deal with the alcoholism factors in our life.
To thine own self be true.
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Yes, Seek, I know this very well. I've had four alcoholic addicts in my life who constantly had to have ALL the attention on them. It was as if I simply did not exist other than to listen to, support, advise, and provide my own resources to them. It is crazy-making. They will even stir up drama and create problems, then panic about them and talk non-stop, I think to get me to react. It is truly sick. I think it is one of the reasons why in Recovery one of the first things you hear about is stop reacting. At least that is one of the first things I learned in Al-Anon. It reminds me of what you hear about with kids, if they're throwing a temper tantrum, don't react. I think reacting just reinforces to them in their minds that this is normal.
I've lost myself completely in relationships with folks like this. Need to work on strengthening myself against doing this again. Or just plain keeping them away from me.
I've lost myself completely in relationships with folks like this. Need to work on strengthening myself against doing this again. Or just plain keeping them away from me.
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When my husband was drinking, the last thing he wanted was attention or focus. He would have preferred being left alone to do his thing in peace. I, on the other hand, made it the center of everything rather than detaching and finding my own happiness.
DH is a kind man at heart and that part never changed. As his drinking got worse, though, my emotional needs were not nearly as important to him as his drinking and I was very lonely.
DH is a kind man at heart and that part never changed. As his drinking got worse, though, my emotional needs were not nearly as important to him as his drinking and I was very lonely.
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They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff.
So, instead of me planning what I would do tomorrow, or being happy about the fact that tomorrow would be a warm and sunny day, I was worrying about the fact that he was drunk again and what if he calls his work to fake being sick again and loses another job again. When he didn't care at all about the consequences of him being drunk all the time.
His job was to be action/inaction/drama drunky boy and my job was to fix all the consequences.
So, instead of me planning what I would do tomorrow, or being happy about the fact that tomorrow would be a warm and sunny day, I was worrying about the fact that he was drunk again and what if he calls his work to fake being sick again and loses another job again. When he didn't care at all about the consequences of him being drunk all the time.
His job was to be action/inaction/drama drunky boy and my job was to fix all the consequences.
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Originally Posted by Lulu39 
They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff.
So, instead of me planning what I would do tomorrow, or being happy about the fact that tomorrow would be a warm and sunny day, I was worrying about the fact that he was drunk again and what if he calls his work to fake being sick again and loses another job again. When he didn't care at all about the consequences of him being drunk all the time.
His job was to be action/inaction/drama drunky boy and my job was to fix all the consequences.
So, instead of me planning what I would do tomorrow, or being happy about the fact that tomorrow would be a warm and sunny day, I was worrying about the fact that he was drunk again and what if he calls his work to fake being sick again and loses another job again. When he didn't care at all about the consequences of him being drunk all the time.
His job was to be action/inaction/drama drunky boy and my job was to fix all the consequences.
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Originally Posted by ichabod
Not to sound mean, but whose fault is that? Living with an alcoholic sucks, but just as they are responsible for themselves, you are responsible for yourself. That's what detachment is all about.
I never said I was detached when I was feeling and doing all that stuff. I also never realised detachment was a pre-requisite for posting here.
I never realised he couldn't stop his addictions nor being a total ********.
I believed his shallow empty words when he bothered to apologise. I thought his love for our children and his deep desire to stay in this family would help bring him around.
I was wrong. He was an ********. He is an ******** and he no longer lives in my home or sponges off of me.
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Originally Posted by Lulu39
You do sound mean, but anyway...
I never said I was detached when I was feeling and doing all that stuff. I also never realised detachment was a pre-requisite for posting here.
I never said I was detached when I was feeling and doing all that stuff. I also never realised detachment was a pre-requisite for posting here.
Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
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Originally Posted by ichabod
Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
To thine own self be true.
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Originally Posted by ichabod
Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
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I have been in that spot but now I see where there is a huge element of choice in that scenario. I can decide how much attention I want to give other people's choices and consequences versus how much attention I give my own. At times I do not see that choice, at times I don't like my options so I close my eyes to it. The choice is always there though. Reminds me of the serenity prayer.
I agree. For me complete detachment was necessary and yes, it was only then that life started to get better. No idea how anyone remains detached/happy/sane within the relationship because I could not see a way to keep my personal affairs secure, serene, on course, etc. w/in the marriage. We were sharing a house and legal obligations and for me that meant his actions obstructed my basic needs for security of all kinds, routine, feelings of safety (not physical safety but other kinds). etc.
I read this as the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices (they - as in me) themselves make.
With that I agree.
My ex is responsible for his drinking or not drinking. He is responsible for all the consequences of his actions.
I am forced to accept his actions and factor them into the decisions I make but ultimately I am responsible for if I live with it, or not. If I spend my mental energy on worrying about him or planning my day. My choices are my responsibility. He can't control them anymore than I can control his.
I mean - in reality we get ensnared in all kinds of manipulations and have trouble with our thinking and processing but we can make a choice to focus on our issues so we are no longer stuck under our own unhealthy thinking and behaviors. It is hard and uncomfortable but it can be done and only we can do it.
One example - I spent enormous amounts of time trying to manipulate and control finances so that we weren't always so broke. It ate away at my basic need for feeling secure and safe. It was a constant game of trying to spend money before he did, trying to hide it, him trying to find it, get more of it, play his own games to outsmart me, constant negotiations surrounding our budget (which of course he did not follow). It was a huge factor and I always lost. It is an example of how choosing to live with alcoholism pulls attention away from ourselves and onto the chaos they create. Even in hindsight I'm not sure how I could have done that differently w/in marriage but I still had choice. It was just at a different point and I closed my eyes to it for a very long time. Ultimately that choice is what freed me though and it was always there.
Originally Posted by ichabod
Not to sound mean, but whose fault is that? Living with an alcoholic sucks, but just as they are responsible for themselves, you are responsible for yourself. That's what detachment is all about.
Originally Posted by ichabod
Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
With that I agree.
My ex is responsible for his drinking or not drinking. He is responsible for all the consequences of his actions.
I am forced to accept his actions and factor them into the decisions I make but ultimately I am responsible for if I live with it, or not. If I spend my mental energy on worrying about him or planning my day. My choices are my responsibility. He can't control them anymore than I can control his.
I mean - in reality we get ensnared in all kinds of manipulations and have trouble with our thinking and processing but we can make a choice to focus on our issues so we are no longer stuck under our own unhealthy thinking and behaviors. It is hard and uncomfortable but it can be done and only we can do it.
One example - I spent enormous amounts of time trying to manipulate and control finances so that we weren't always so broke. It ate away at my basic need for feeling secure and safe. It was a constant game of trying to spend money before he did, trying to hide it, him trying to find it, get more of it, play his own games to outsmart me, constant negotiations surrounding our budget (which of course he did not follow). It was a huge factor and I always lost. It is an example of how choosing to live with alcoholism pulls attention away from ourselves and onto the chaos they create. Even in hindsight I'm not sure how I could have done that differently w/in marriage but I still had choice. It was just at a different point and I closed my eyes to it for a very long time. Ultimately that choice is what freed me though and it was always there.
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Too many people here (and elsewhere) vilify the alcoholic without recognizing that the alcoholic isn't responsible for the choices they themselves make.
I think what Ichabod is saying is that someone with an addiction is not responsible for the choices that the OTHER person makes. I think some "fixers", which is another word for codependency, can have a tendency to make everyone else's problems their job to straighten out. All the attention in fact, many times, goes to the "fixer". Who takes on a victim mentality and woe is me. Who's, in truth, actually dying from the disease of addiction? They are, the addict.
Many people with this mindset not only focus on fixing a spouse, but their kids, their friends, strangers in the street. I get that. I've been there. Until we look at ourselves in the mirror and stop pointing fingers everywhere else, we don't grow.
I think it is unfair to create this fictional divide between someone with addiction issues and someone with "fixing" issues. I hear the same complaints from my friends about their non-alcoholic spouses ALL THE TIME. "They don't listen", "It's all about them", "They're selfish." etc.
Someone here stated "They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff." Who is giving them all the attention? "We" are. That's our choice. Stop doing it. That's the goal of Alanon. Get out of their business and get into our own.
There is recovery that is needed on both sides of the street. Is this really news?
I think what Ichabod is saying is that someone with an addiction is not responsible for the choices that the OTHER person makes. I think some "fixers", which is another word for codependency, can have a tendency to make everyone else's problems their job to straighten out. All the attention in fact, many times, goes to the "fixer". Who takes on a victim mentality and woe is me. Who's, in truth, actually dying from the disease of addiction? They are, the addict.
Many people with this mindset not only focus on fixing a spouse, but their kids, their friends, strangers in the street. I get that. I've been there. Until we look at ourselves in the mirror and stop pointing fingers everywhere else, we don't grow.
I think it is unfair to create this fictional divide between someone with addiction issues and someone with "fixing" issues. I hear the same complaints from my friends about their non-alcoholic spouses ALL THE TIME. "They don't listen", "It's all about them", "They're selfish." etc.
Someone here stated "They get the attention in our heads that ought to be devoted to other stuff." Who is giving them all the attention? "We" are. That's our choice. Stop doing it. That's the goal of Alanon. Get out of their business and get into our own.
There is recovery that is needed on both sides of the street. Is this really news?
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If you are reading on this forum, you are giving your attention to the alcoholic/addict . . .just read the thread titles on this forum and the F&F of Substance Abusers forum . . . the titles are not about what the so-called "fixers" are doing in their lives, but 95% of the threads are their reactions to the havoc the alcoholic/drug abuser is causing in their lives.
It is not so easy to just say "stop doing it," when lives are intertwined. It is not a black and white issue . . . there are families, children, and resources involved (or lack of resources for many people) . . .you don't just wake up one day and say "This person is causing a problem in my life - I'm out of here and will never interact with them again." In most cases (as in the case of parents or grandparents who have a loved one who is alcoholic and addicted, you love them and are emotional invested in the relationship and would celebrate their recovery (to say whether or not they recover is their own business might be true, but what parent or grandparent would be able to be so glib and unconcerned as if to say "La di da - it's their own life, now what did I need at the grocery store?"
That thinking is minimizing the pain of the addiction and the havoc it causes families . . .I don't subscribe to the belief that every family member is guilty of creating the environment for the addiction . . .some people are living perfectly functional lives and some aren't - when you love someone who is dysfunctional, you may need to detach - but it would be a rare parent/grandparent who can just stop caring . . .it's easier for a boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife . . . they aren't your blood - you may love them, but you have legally (or emotionally) contracted with them . . .you don't HAVE to have them in your life. Just my two cents - my opinion . . .not wanting to argue with anyone about my opinion . . . it's just a point-of-view. Your mileage WILL vary. It's not personal.
It is not so easy to just say "stop doing it," when lives are intertwined. It is not a black and white issue . . . there are families, children, and resources involved (or lack of resources for many people) . . .you don't just wake up one day and say "This person is causing a problem in my life - I'm out of here and will never interact with them again." In most cases (as in the case of parents or grandparents who have a loved one who is alcoholic and addicted, you love them and are emotional invested in the relationship and would celebrate their recovery (to say whether or not they recover is their own business might be true, but what parent or grandparent would be able to be so glib and unconcerned as if to say "La di da - it's their own life, now what did I need at the grocery store?"
That thinking is minimizing the pain of the addiction and the havoc it causes families . . .I don't subscribe to the belief that every family member is guilty of creating the environment for the addiction . . .some people are living perfectly functional lives and some aren't - when you love someone who is dysfunctional, you may need to detach - but it would be a rare parent/grandparent who can just stop caring . . .it's easier for a boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife . . . they aren't your blood - you may love them, but you have legally (or emotionally) contracted with them . . .you don't HAVE to have them in your life. Just my two cents - my opinion . . .not wanting to argue with anyone about my opinion . . . it's just a point-of-view. Your mileage WILL vary. It's not personal.
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That's right, the titles refer to what other people are doing - not to our own personal growth. Why do you think there isn't a little more emphasis on growing ourselves?
It's also not always about leaving and never talking to that person again. It's about learning to detach. Loving without fixing. There is absolutely nothing glib about learning to let go and love. You can't fix another person - so why keep beating our head against the wall trying?
I didn't say it's easy to stop whatever pattern we're doing. It's very hard work, just like stopping drinking, drugging, eating disorders - are hard work. Don't you think that everyone has hard work they need to do within themselves to be healthy?
"I don't subscribe to the belief that every family member is guilty of creating the environment for the addiction" And who does? Alcoholism has been shown to be, in most cases, genetic. In the DNA. Life situations can help trigger it. It's a brain disorder. And that's not to say that some kids don't have a very bad and painful upbringing and that parents haven't caused some of that. Isn't that the purpose of communicating with our family? Taking responsibility for what we've each done?
We can only fix ourselves. What in you needs to be changed? What is valid about the complaints that we are each hearing from the people in our lives?
It's also not always about leaving and never talking to that person again. It's about learning to detach. Loving without fixing. There is absolutely nothing glib about learning to let go and love. You can't fix another person - so why keep beating our head against the wall trying?
I didn't say it's easy to stop whatever pattern we're doing. It's very hard work, just like stopping drinking, drugging, eating disorders - are hard work. Don't you think that everyone has hard work they need to do within themselves to be healthy?
"I don't subscribe to the belief that every family member is guilty of creating the environment for the addiction" And who does? Alcoholism has been shown to be, in most cases, genetic. In the DNA. Life situations can help trigger it. It's a brain disorder. And that's not to say that some kids don't have a very bad and painful upbringing and that parents haven't caused some of that. Isn't that the purpose of communicating with our family? Taking responsibility for what we've each done?
We can only fix ourselves. What in you needs to be changed? What is valid about the complaints that we are each hearing from the people in our lives?
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It gets old having to think about/worry about/deal with/react to whatever crazy thing they have done, are doing, or are about to do . . .
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And yes, watching a loved one falling, suffering, and perhaps dying from an addiction is one of the most painful and baffling experiences a human being can have. It is a horror that few will ever understand. The love doesn't end. Detaching is the opposite action that our own DNA tells us to take. Our heart yells at us to go help them. And our head knows that we must let go. Which is why this disease is so terrifying and confusing.
Have most of you seen end-stage addiction? I hope not, but this is where addiction ends up. Read "Catch 22" on this page. If I am unable to see that this is a disease, then I need to see clearer. That's just my own opinion.
Have most of you seen end-stage addiction? I hope not, but this is where addiction ends up. Read "Catch 22" on this page. If I am unable to see that this is a disease, then I need to see clearer. That's just my own opinion.
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I was just noticing the titles of threads and thinking about the ENERGY that people focus on the alcoholic/drug addicted person (myself included).
If they are in your life, they take up a certain amount of space in your psyche.
I had DREAMS about my grandson last night. Alanon cannot touch that.
If they are in your life, they take up a certain amount of space in your psyche.
I had DREAMS about my grandson last night. Alanon cannot touch that.
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