yogachic

Yeah, that is clear. Thx.
This is the main reason I keep to myself when I know I'm going to drink more than I should. I still have a good handle on being able to drink socially and when I'm w people, I keep it cool and enjoy the social aspect of 1-4 drinks only. But sometimes those nights also turn into longer nights after returning home. That is what scares me lately. That is why I am here for some help. Sorry if I'm in the wrong place.

ichabod

Yes, this is it exactly, thanks WishingWell. The alcoholic will drink or not and eventually that's something that everyone who loves one learns/comes to terms with. Our job is to make sure that we don't drown in their problems. It's easier said than done, obviously, but the alcoholic isn't making anyone (the non-alcoholics) do anything. We each need to own our own recovery and going through it I think it's been almost as difficult for me as it has been for my husband. I had/have so much anger and angst to learn to let go of.

Mambo Queen

I agree with bits and pieces of what just about everyone has posted here. In my experience and opinion, I feel like I have seen some people who even call themselves alcoholics not exhibit the signposts, irrational behavior, extreme selfishness and self-disregard as say, my ex-husband does. But then I've also seen many many posts that could have been written by me with exasperated wives, husbands, etc. where their "qualifier" seems to almost be playing out a script I could have written with regards to poor choices, irrational behavior, extreme selfishness, etc. The way I have thought about it (because I do have a logical mind that loves nothing more than to categorize) is that there are different types of alcoholics just as there are different types of codependents, poor and ill-mannered people, any category you could come up with really. And I DO believe there is a certain type of alcoholic, who fits an almost prescriptive pattern, and for whom literally a drop of booze will send into a self-destructive tail-spin script almost like something out of a play. I would say that the majority of people who post here are dealing with this type of alcoholic. But then there are self-labelling alcoholics like my best friend who seems to be able to moderate her drinking on occasion and who may "fall off the wagon" and NOT have it be such a huge hairy deal as it would be for my XAH, and who seem to by and large consider other people and her own life consequences when making decisions. I have learned that this does not mean she is not an alcoholic, just not of the type that I am used to dealing with. I sometimes see people post on these boards who do seem to be more aligned with this description, or lovers, friends, parents of those types, and usually what I think is that what they are dealing with is not quite in the same category. Painful, I am sure, but not quite the same.

And I think this sometimes causes friction on these boards, between those of us that are dealing with these textbook hard-luck cases, and those of us that may be dealing with something milder. Just food for thought.

seek

Please go back and read my initial post. I said that alcoholics/drug addicted people have the focus of attention on them . . . in later posts I noted that thread topics are all about the problems related to alcoholics/drug addicts.

Is anyone denying that they cause PROBLEMS for OTHER PEOPLE?

Everyone's actions impact everyone else (quantum physics) - even if you don't want them to or pretend that they don't - even if you go to an Alanon meeting twice a day - if you love an alcoholic/drug addict, and they are active in their disease OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE AFFECTED, WHETHER THEY WANT TO BE, PRAY NOT TO BE, OR NOT. There is just no getting away from it.

Some people have better internal resources, re: ignoring things, going into denial, settling . . . but I think it is the rare person who will hear about a relapse and say and feel it's "no skin off their back." I think it is totally bogus that people say they are happy "whether the alcoholic drinks or not." How could you be truly happy and full of peace when a person you love is harming themselves?

And the cancer analogy does not work for me - people who have cancer do not, as a group, exhibit anti-social behavior - they don't put other people's lives at risk by the choices they make (driving) - they do not harm their children with their disease . . .

And I never lumped ALL ALCOHOLICS into my statement . . . don't know why anyone went off on that tangent . . .obviously, you can stereotype a group to that extent - but there are common behaviors - that's why alcoholics love to hear other "war stories." There are lots of "war stories." If you are on the other side of the equation, you don't get to revel in war stories - that would be seen as "sick." After all, "co-dependents" are SICK - mentally ill, doncha know!!!

Ha ha ha!!!

Thanks for letting me vent . . . and resentment is caused by feeling trapped . . .so I will do some more tapping and praying and all of the other stuff I do to try to cope with the aftereffects of alcoholism!

ichabod

While I definitely agree that there are different types of alcoholics, I think we need to be very careful about deciding who has it the worst.

I have two alcoholics in my life. My sister is the classic Leaving Las Vegas type who will die rather than recover. I'm amazed she's still alive, honestly, and she drinks until she's face down in the gutter and hauled off to jail. She's defiantly and proudly drunk.

My husband was always functional. Always. He's missed one sick day in 30 years or so. He'd also come home, go into the kitchen and drink a fifth of vodka every night. He peed in my bed and in every corner of the house, embarrassed the hell out of me on too many occasions to count, and I became socially and emotionally isolated because I just couldn't deal.

They were equally difficult to cope with.

LaTeeDa

Yes, it is normal human behavior to categorize. There are plenty of people in my life who behave in ways that rub me the wrong way, from mild to extreme. What I am trying to learn is to respond to the behavior the individual presents, rather that react to the category as a whole. It's difficult to do, especially when individual behavior gets me angry.

Based on my experiences, I could easily go there. I could decide that all alcoholics are selfish and irresponsible. I could conclude that all bosses are a$$holes who cannot be trusted. I could assume that all evangelicals are judgmental. I could presume that all conservatives are paranoid and fearful. But, these are only my experiences with some individuals.

The bottom line is, it's my reaction to the situation that determines how it affects me. I can get angry at someone in response to their behavior, or I can get angry at an entire segment of humanity based on one (or a few) people who are in that category. I find that the fewer people I am angry at, the more peace I have in my life. So, I really try to make those decisions/judgments based on people as individuals, not entire groups. It works both ways, too. There are plenty of selfish people who aren't alcoholics.

L

Mambo Queen

I certainly don't mean to diminish anyone's pain. I have just noticed for me that certain people that others will post about on these boards seem to fit such a pattern, and then others, not so much.

yogachic

Seek, your experience and struggle is your own. It's cool that you can come here and express your frustration and irritation and pain, and also try to find answers.

From what you wrote, maybe cutting off relations w people who have current challenges would be your only way for a clear life. Rebuilding your life w/o any people who have any ties to alcohol addiction, etc. I posted to try to help but it seems to have only frustrated things. I'm so sorry, not my intention at all! Best of luck for you.

Zoenob

I know I'm going to get into trouble but the irony of As trying to hijack this thread is humorously ironic.

"I guess you think this song is about you."

Titanic

Does this make a difference or shed some water on this issue? Titanic certainly is allowed to ask!

The Iceberg Theory.jpg

seek

Carly Simon - You're So Vain - YouTube

Titanic

The As' turn now:

James Taylor - Fire and Rain, Live 1970 - YouTube

"Carly, I swear I'm clean."

"Sure you are sweet baby James." [i.e., you may be right!]

seek

Beautiful.

Lulu39

The alcoholic is responsible for every drunken action, every nasty word, every insult, every false promise, every crashed car and every other stupid thing they have done that causes pain and frustration to the people they claim to love.

I initially "chose", for 23 years of marriage, to believe our marriage vows and I can't help but feel angry and cheated that he needs and loves a bottle more than me and our children.

When I read what you have written it feels to me like you are saying that "we" chose to stay with them, we chose to be co-dependent, we didn't detach properly and so drink a cup of concrete. Thus, I caused some of it, I could have controlled some of it and I could have cured some of it. And discussing this with you actually really feels to me like I am discussing something or arguing with an addict. It feels to me like I am being told that, in some way, I am responsible for the bad things his drunken behaviour caused in my life and the lives of my children.

I don't expect or want to change your mind. Your life is your life. I just wanted you to know how I feel when I read some of the things you have written.

fluffyflea

How do you "learn" to let go of things? I have a hard time to let go of things, I will hang on and fester?

Earthworm

sugarbear1

recovery for al anons is a process

ichabod

Ok, Agreed. They are responsible for themselves.

Ok.

This is where the anger you have is misplaced. The bottom line, even if it hurts to hear it, is that you DID choose to stay with him. You didn't cause his behavior, but you chose to stay in the middle of it. He didn't make you. You didn't have to stay for the insults or the chaos. It's far easier to scream and yell about how horrible the alcoholic is than to admit that you didn't take charge of your own life and instead let him run it.

That's why Al Anon is so important. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it, but you can move forward from it and let the anger go.

outonalimb

I'm not an alcoholic. I don't know how they feel. I don't know what goes through their head when they make the same harmful decisions/choices over and over and over again. What must it feel like to look in the eyes of someone you've hurt or betrayed or let down knowing full well that you're going to do it again and again and again? It must be really painful. I guess that's why they live in denial. They have to. I know I'd have to if I were going to make the choice every day to continue on my path of self-destruction.

Just as I try not to judge the alcholic because I can't understand their struggle, I also don't appreciate it when people criticize or judge me for the choices and decisions I've made when it comes to dealing with addiction in my marriage. How could they judge unless they walked in my shoes? Logically, I understand that they're opinions are meaningless but their spoken and unspoken judgments hurt my heart...deeply.

The alcoholic in my life is my exah. We have a child together - our 13 year old son. Consequently, there is no way I can just banish hiim from my life and pretend he doesn't exist. He is a permanent part of my life...whether we are married or not. I spent years trying to fix my exah, help him get better...so I could give my son the life I wanted him to have - a life with his family in tact or at the very least, a life with his dad in it) I thought things would get better with enough love and patience and prayer. After all, this is what I knew growing up in a home with a recovering alcoholic father. From my perspective as a child, my mom fixed my dad. I thought I could do the same. I spent 13 years trying to fix him...and nearly destroyed myself in the process.

I started going to al anon about 15 months ago and it has dramatically changed my life.
I am not trying to fix my exah anymore. My exah is in the final stages of his disease now. He is incapable or working. He lives in a remote trailer with no hot water...his trailer is littered with rotting food and dirty clothes. He is psychotic. He is probably going to drink himself to death. I don't know if he will or not but I have to prepare myself for this strong possibility as well as find a way to help our son cope with the reality of this situation. There is no shielding him from it.

I will never claim to understand the disease of alcoholism. I have alot of compassion for my exah and all alcoholics because it seems like such a horrible and sad way to live. It took me a long time and alot of hard work to come to the point of compassion for him. For years, I was just filled with rage. But anger had its place for me. It helped me to seperate myself from my exah. And only by seperating myself, could I begin to see how enmeshed I had become in my exah's disease. I began to see how I had taken on problems and issues that weren't mine to fix....how I had stopped taking care of myself and how I created such an unhealthy environment for our son to grow up in (with an active alcohlic and raging codependent)

I have to work really hard every single day to maintain a healthy balance of compassion for my exah and healthy boundaries and living for my son and I. Without this balance, I can be overcome with fear or anger (or a wierd combination of both). This isn't good for me. It isn't good for our son. It's NOT easy. It's not easy at all. But its what I've got to do every single day if I am going to find and maintain some level of peace and sanity.

In the end, its all about finding that balance...and working to maintain it.

Learn2Live

Seek, I apologize if I hijacked your thread; I didn't mean to. I was thinking of your situation with your family and yes, I do consider them selfish for what they are doing and I am sorry for your hurt feelings and struggles. I hope soon it will pass for you.

In my experience and esp with the last AXBF, all the focus had to be on him, his life, his work, his problems, what he experiences, all the time. It was as if I did not even exist. My feelings and desires were not important, unless they had to do with HIM. It's exhausting. It's hard to live with an alcoholic or an addict. My A father was King of the Castle, and controlled us kids and my mom with many kinds of tactics.

I come here nearly every day, and have for some time. And always it is the same as what you originally posted about. Hurt people trying to figure out just what the hell has happened and why. People say, "It doesn't matter WHY," but human beings are not blobs, we all seek to understand what happens to us and put our experiences into larger context. We come here and share those experiences and how they have made us feel and that is the value of this place. No, it's not up to anyone else to dictate our thoughts or tell us what we need, whether it's Al-Anon, or a church, or whatever their solution. I think it's great you've made your observation about the threads here; I've noticed something similar. We do spend an awful lot of time sharing our horrible experiences with the alcoholics in our lives, it seems to consume us.

Learn2Live

In case this post is directed at me, Zoenob, I'd like to let you know that before I became an alcoholic, I was a neglected child of an alcoholic, with no heat, no hot water, no clothes dryer, no telephone, no food many times, and no clothes but what people gave me. BUT I had BEER in my fridge and cigarettes by the carton. And by the grace of God, I had a loving, responsible, unselfish mother from whom I learned excellent caretaking skills. I was an alcoholic for about 8 years and drank until I realized I was turning into my father. I have been a codependent caretaker much longer and much more severely than that, that is, 45 years.

Sorry Seek, if I've hijacked again, I felt the need to identify myself properly here.