blwninthewind

That is an absolute horrendous analogy.

and that is only what YOUR program teaches.

In comparision most programs do not teach that alcoholism is curable. It is a lifelong struggle with daily work and a belief in a higher power.

I personally would walk out the minute I found out someone purposely hid their past drug/alcohol struggles with me. For me it's a question of honesty and trust. I don't know that the first date is the place for that conversation but for me it's a deal breaker so I want to know upfront immediately.

cjacobs

For what it's worth, mini golf was our first date, and it was a blast.

I am being sincere when I say that I'm taking everything you all say to heart.

We're going slowly. So far, so good.

I'm also planning to try Al-Anon in the next week or two, just to see what it's like.

blwninthewind

Playing games with words doesn't change what you are. I'm not saying your a bad person. I'm saying that I personally would never get into a relationship with someone who has a problem past with drugs or alcohol.
I just don't like to gamble...and the odds are bad anyway.

sugarbear1

I didn't get sober to continue to manipulate or deceive others.

A relationship based on honesty will lead to trust & longevity.

Best wishes & prayers to you!

Terminally Unique

I was responding to the suggestion that I can't possibly guarantee that I won't drink again, and how I can be so certain that I won't drink again. There are many things that I consider so heinous that I would never do them, and that is just one of many. Since I can't predict with certainty what I might do if I drink, I have elevated the act of drinking, in and of itself, to the status of prime cardinal sin, more immoral than any other act.

It is impossible for me to drink alcohol.

Curable or not, lifelong struggle or not, it does not matter to me. Unless someone forcibly shoves the whiskey down my throat, I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind, either. I have permanently rescinded my drinking license. How is that a bad thing?

Terminally Unique

No, you are saying that I am a biological robot who cannot restrain his own bodily desires. If this were true, it would effectively deprive me of free will and the potential for self determination. It is akin to branding me an animal, unfit for life in a civilized society.

That is certainly your choice, since it is your life, and it doesn't disturb me in the least.

Thumper

First I think you can trust yourself. We can know ourselves, which is different then knowing another, to me.

Omitting important details about one's past, masking the truth, and keeping secrets does not build trust.

Trust is built on many things. For me honesty, openness, and respect are some of the most important. In your example of not giving me information about past alcohol problems you are keeping information from me in an attempt to get what you want. That feels like manipulation to me. It is worse then the past problems because it is a *present* problem. It is controlling the information for personal gain when you know it is information that other people feel is important for their own sense of security and personal autonomy.

I would ask any teetollar I was getting serious about why he doesn't drink. Why? Because I've know quite a few people that do not drink at all. 3 don't drink for religious reasons and one I have no clue about and the rest were all alcoholics. It would not matter in a casual relationship and certainly people are allowed their privacy but if I was getting serious, I would want to know. I have a right to my feelings on the matter, right or wrong, and should be allowed the autonomy to make my own decisions - not tricked.

I was going to say I can't imagine keeping such a secret but that is not really true. I don't actually have a secret like that but I'm very experienced in keeping tight control over what information I shared, when, how much, under what circumstances, etc. Always trying to plan 10 steps out how people would react, how I could control that, get the outcome I wanted. Maybe that is why this question has grabbed at me so hard. Looking back with a little distance I see it as one of the biggest negatives I contributed to my marriage.

blwninthewind

Alcoholism is not about willpower.

It is an addiction. A disease process.

I believe we need to agree to disagree on our personal beliefs about alcoholism and whether to disclose and when. This can't go anywhere good.

Terminally Unique

It is not important, because I will never go back to that.

No, in my example, I would be choosing not to automatically volunteer information that is irrelevant to the my present lifestyle. It is not like withholding information on a past marriage, for example, which could still be pertinent.

It would be controlling information because I know that thanks to the incessant propaganda from what I like to call the recovery lobby, people have misconceptions about the nature of addiction and recovery. This is especially true of never-addicted people, for whom addiction understandably appears completely and utterly illogical.

You certainly have a right to your feelings on this or any other matter, but I would question whether or not you you have a right to know about someone else's private reasons for not drinking alcohol. If you have a problem with dating or living with a drinker, you could certainly simply draw the line there and be done with it. As for whether I would disclose the information if someone asked, I probably would, provided I knew their intentions were not malicious, and that doing so would not put me at risk.

Terminally Unique

Many people tried to convince me that I was diseased, powerless, and sick, sick, sick. I resisted, and chose instead to take a direct, moral hit for each and every time I chose to drink in spite of my own better judgment. It was gut-wrenching and painful, but in exchange, I came to see the difference between right and wrong as it pertains to my own drinking.

As a result, I walk free, now and forever. May everyone else in a similar predicament do likewise.

GypsyLeopard

Thanks for the update, Cjacobs! I myself have yet to become truly interested in attending an Al-Anon meeting. I've never maintained a relationship with an active alcoholic, so I guess I haven't felt like I could truly relate to others in the program, and honestly, I'm so busy with my current friendships, I don't think I could keep up with any new ones right now! I am prepared to attend in the future, if I ever find it necessary. Will you update here or message me if you do go to a meeting? I'll be interested in knowing what it's like from the perspective of one that is dating someone in Recovery.

Glad to hear things are going well so far!

wellnowwhat

I am glad you are going slowly. I think everyone should start out this way, even when one party is not a recovering alcoholic.

In your posts you sound thoughtful and you are preceeding with your eyes open to his previous alcohol problem, open to how it can cause problems in relationships, open to get yourself education on alcoholism and opened by the many posts and threads and stickies here. Keep vigilant to spot red flags. And when you spot red flags, walk away. You are the least likely person to help him stop again. He needs professionals and other recovery alcoholics to get dry again. It would not be abandoning him in his time of need, it would aid him and protect you.

Unfortunately, a lot of people with alcohol problems can be extremely cunning in their effort to hid and protect their drinking. While my AH is a real stand up guy in all other areas of his life, he's a pro at hiding the drinking, so much so that I thought I must be crazy to be suspicious in absence of any proof. My lesson was that if you think it's happening, it probably is.

I wish you both well. This could be something great, or it could go terribly wrong.

It is telling that the posts by someone new to a relationship with someone who is becoming an alcoholic, or was an alcoholic, seems to attract the most responses and some quite heated. In the end, you are actually there and will have to decide.

m1k3

LOL. When you come to forum full of codies who have been severely burnt in relationships with alchoholics it's what you are going to get. It's like walking into a burn ward with a can of gasoline and a lighter. You might not have any intention of lighting the lighter but the room is going to be really upset.

I know it's a trigger for me. I just want to grab them and yell run away. I know that isn't the right answer but the scars are still too fresh for me to distance myself real well.

Especially when you get recovering alcoholics saying how they deserve the right to relationships as well. I agree and I get it intellectually but my gut knots up and just hears the manipulation that came out of my AW's mouth and how she used my love for her to get what she wanted in their posts.

So for this relationship, as any relationship, keep your eyes open to reality and not the hope of what might be, know your boundaries and respect them and have an exit plan just in case.

Your friend,

megan09

M1k3 - that last post was a really good analogy - I can completely understand the pain and hurt that alcoholism causes those who love an alcoholic. On this board though, obviously, most people's experience is with those who are still in the illness. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic who is still drinking, and one who is in long term recovery. And as an alcoholic, I too have suffered terribly from this illness - the harm I have caused to myself as well as others is something I have had to face up to. I was in no way being manipulative when I said I was as deserving as the next person of a healthy relationship - without alcohol I am a rational, caring and empathetic individual, not a monster. I hope all goes well with your partner.

cjacobs - Going slowly is good - it is the way all relationships should be approached. I wish you well.

atalose

You started dating ( guessing a very short time) then fell in love. You soon discovered he was a recovering alcoholic who was pretty much lying to you about the recovering part because he was actually drinking.

So the real reality is, you fell in love extremely quickly with an active alcoholic. Now he has chosen to seek help, is about 30 days sober. He’s not going to be the person you fell in love with, that person is now 30 days sober and a stranger to himself let alone to you.
Each day will bring someone new to his life, a new discovery about himself, about his wants and needs………………do you really want to bank on someone you really don’t know………someone who really doesn’t even know himself? That’s one giant big risk but that’s what love is all about it isn’t it…risks.

From your post I get a feeling that the “risk” part is what is really bothering you. The fear of the un-known, the fear he will move away from you and begin a life without you.

Trying to get him to commit to counseling together in 11 months from now, is how you are attempting to manipulate your fear of today. He can’t commit to tomorrow let alone 11 months from now……it’s always one day at a time and he will always be one bad thought away from picking up a drink………..and that is what you need prepare yourself for if the two of you decide on a future together. He needs to work his program and you need to work yours……can’t force both nice and neat into couples counseling sessions.

Gain as much education as you can about addictions. Learn and understand that rehab is a door to show him what can be - not a cure all. The standard average for alcoholics is 7 or 8 detoxes/rehabs before they possible “get it” and stay sober. His hard work on his addiction will truly begin when he leaves rehab. HE and only HE can keep himself sober.

Keep hanging around, keep posting and reading and learn as much as you possible can.
This is YOUR journey to take, you can learn to understand the hazard signs as you go and proceed at your own risk.

****{hugs}}}

Mightyqueen801

This whole thread was interesting. I was on another forum wherein someone posted the question, "Would you date a recovering alcoholic?" Many of us from "the burn ward" yelled NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, and one poor young woman who was recently into her recovery was very upset to hear this, and went on with how she couldn't help it, it was a disease, etc., and accused the burnt ones of being judgmental. I hope I explained sufficiently that we weren't being judgmental, but rather not willing to expose ourselves to that sort of pain ever again. I wished her well in her recovery, too.

You can't make a rule that people in recovery must only date others in recovery, lol, but that would work out nicely for the rest of us, wouldn't it.

fedup3

Terminally Unique, boy I wish my X had your resolve and I'm sure a lot of other folks on this site!

Terminally Unique

Thank You. I realize that my posts may sound provocative to some, but I hope to provide a slightly different perspective, one perhaps more optimistic.

Terminally Unique

FWIW, I wouldn't date her, or even spend much time with her, for that matter. Not with that attitude. :-)

cjacobs

I think I came across this one when I first started looking for advice. I read the first page or two and thought "Wow, these guys are really mean." I hadn't meant to discredit anyone's opinion or experience, because I've learned a bit more about alcoholism and what it means to be in recovery, and I can't blame any of you for being gun-shy.